You know...the Mormons who go to Church and play the part, but they go to Starbucks for coffee, shop on Sunday, go to R-rated movies, and do obviously not-so-faithful (but completely normal in any other circle) stuff.

I’m curious if ex-Mos and never-Mos ever view them as disingenuous, cowardly, or sleazy.

You are talking about Mormons. And you are talking about Mormons who don't follow their rules well and possibly lie about their worthiness.

I think that they are people. I don't consider actions and words in the same bucket of human character. If the delta of actions and words produces harmful hypocrisy to self and others then I consider the person experiencing a human failing.

We all have this happen. It is just more pronounced in religious folks I think.

Jack Mormons live openly in ways that Mormons disapprove of regardless of the Mormon rules they may or may not be disregarding. But they openly claim a belief in Mormonism. That is a Jack Mormon - believer living outside the bounds the Mormon god has set.

Hi Elder Berry,

Forgive me, I think I misunderstood what Jack Mormon meant. So...with an actual Jack Mormon, there's no secrecy involved. For instance, they'll openly drink coffee and everyone knows it, but they still believe in Mormonism. Or the spirit of Mormonism.

Well, you learn something new every day. Thanks.

It is splitting hairs, but you are welcome. I actually might be wrong. It might have evolved into what you are claiming it is.

They are inactive and some would say "Mormons in Name Only". That is, if someone came up to them and asked their religion (this really only happens in Utah on a regular basis), they would say, "I'm Mormon" because their parents had them baptised as a kid and that is the only religion they have known all their life; maybe it's their tribal identity, but they don't go around espousing the Joe Smith "restoration", do any prostelytizing nor go to a ward house for anything but what might be required by events in their family or extended family (like seeing a cousin or nephew off on a mission), and they sure as sh** don't go to a temple, McTemple or otherwise.

There's the term "cafeteria Catholics." It may not be used in Utah, but perhaps it's useful: picking and choosing what parts of a religion you can believe and/or practice, and disregarding the rest.

Perhaps the question should be phrased,"How inactive can a person be before he is considered a Jack Mormon?"

I'm also curious about two things:
1) Is the term used much these days, and how much of an insult/derogatory term is it? Or is it simply a neutral slang term?
2) How is it commonly rendered in print? "Jack Mormon" (note upper case)? "jack Mormon?" "Jack-Mormon" (note hyphen)?

caffiend Wrote:
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> There's the term "cafeteria Catholics."

Yes, and 'Casual Christians'.

I guess they kind of confused me when I lived in Utah. I worked with a woman who wouldn't start her day without announcing to us all that she was going to the local coffee bar and walked proudly into our office of all TBM's with her daily cup-a-jo. She bragged about how much she knew about wine tasting. She did not go to church at all. She talked about meeting with her visiting teachers. She talked about her wonderful ex-husband who held the priesthood, was very wealthy, and blessed their grandchildren but she divorced him for infidelity. Her present husband was ex-Mormon and complained loudly about Mormons and Mormonism. She disliked that he did that.

I finally asked her if she believed JS was a prophet, the BofM was true and the prophet was inspired. She answered, "Yes, yes, and yes."

I had another co-worker whose father drank coffee and smoked. When he went into the hospital for surgery he lied and said he did not smoke and did not drink coffee. His daughter asked why he lied to his doctor about that and he said, "My doctor thinks I'm a good Mormon and I don't want him to know I'm not."

So, I guess there are all kinds of Mormons. There are openly Jack and closeted Jack but they all seem to basically believe. Some want to obey but just cannot. And some don't want to obey and think it makes no difference. And there are probably all manner of others.

I guess I learned that the world is made of all kinds of people in and out of Mormonism.

Pooped Wrote:
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> She talked about meeting with her visiting
> teachers.

She doesn't sound Mormon. Mormons have HTs, not VTs.

BrightAqua Wrote:
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> n/t

Thank you, BrightAqua. I wonder why I was told pre-conversion that I could only have VTs from RS, but upon conversion, I got HTs from RS?

Every family/household is supposed to have home teachers.

There was a time the only way off the membership list was excommunication. That came with heavy penalties in some communities that could limit your business, banking and social opportunities.

At the same time many towns, even small ones, had a place men would go to get coffee, beer etc. Socialize and conduct business.

Many of these folks were mormon by birth and being baptised at 8 years of age but not really being mormon beyond that.

Where I lived, in the 60s and 70s the church pretty much turned a blind eye to these folks.

I think today the church just hounds people until they resign so the books look good.

For me and most other ex-Mos I know, we don't really care what Jack Mormons or any other kind of Mormons do, as long as they leave us alone. Anyone who's been Mormon knows that lots of Mormons just lie and pretend while doing forbidden things; if anything, we respect JackMos a bit more because they're at least somewhat honest about their activities.

In my pre-convert, neverMo days, Mormons mostly were not on my radar because I didn't live in the Morridor. I knew little about them and cared less.

Automaton Wrote:
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> I’m curious if ex-Mos and never-Mos ever view
> them as disingenuous, cowardly, or sleazy.

How about stupid? Not worthy of respect? SO much fraud in Mormonland from those who identify as Mormon!

If a person can't even follow the thing they say they believe, then I don't trust them. If they can't be bothered to officially resign from the thing they don't follow, then I don't trust them.

Carameldreams, some people (like me) feel that officially resigning acknowledges the church bureaucracy and their claim to control everyone's eternal salvation. I don't like that.

When talking to a church official about religion, he challenged me to resign in writing. I said that in normal organizations, like the Elks, when you quit paying dues, your name is dropped as an Elks member and it is no big deal. He could tell that going further would reveal Mormonism's cultish traits and dropped that topic.

As a company man, I had some crews from Utah working for me. As Mormon's do, they asked if I was Mormon. When I said "I'm jack." They said their father or uncle also didn't like going to church and didn't say anymore. I never had bad relations with Mormons who worked for me.

brotherofjared Wrote:
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> When talking to a church official about religion,
> he challenged me to resign in writing. I said that
> in normal organizations, like the Elks, when you
> quit paying dues, your name is dropped as an Elks
> member and it is no big deal. He could tell that
> going further would reveal Mormonism's cultish
> traits and dropped that topic.


You're still playing their game. And comparing to another organization is a distraction from the one you're in. We know that other groups (and even cults) work differently, more or less, from LDS.

This phrase, '...in normal organizations..' is a sign you are off track. LDS is anything but 'normal'.

In college I was good friends with a young man who was the son of Utah Jackmos. I would say that the push and pull of the Mormon environment in which he was raised had a very negative impact on him psychologically. It lasted for many years. In college he went from trying to make religion work to going off the metaphorical deep end. He didn't know who he was or where he was going in terms of his personal life.

With the benefit of hindsight, I feel for him. He was on his way to leaving Mormonism far behind him, but at the time he didn't handle it well.

but he did care about what his family thought.

Another "Jack" Mormon from Coeur d'Alene that I dated would blame every bad thing to happen to him on the girl he knocked up in college.

The most interesting "Jack" was a very good looking older guy that looked half his age who used his language skills to work in some unnamed government surveillance bureau...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2018 07:53PM by anybody.

I for one am really amused by the Jack Mo's that have relented to openly smoking (tobacco) but still insist on wearing (their) Temple Garments as a sign of their lingering faithFOOLness and to avoid incurring the wrath of Lower head Lord MORmON Jesus.

I thought Jack Mormons were those good Samaritans that actually stopped to help you with a flat tire.

Real ones were always running late and wouldn't stop to help.

I consider Jack Mormons as members that pretend they have all their shit together and portray themselves as such. A select few who are close to the Jack Mormon know what they are really like. Whether it's not following the Word of Wisdom, committing adultery, being dishonest in business dealings, and a number of other things.

I feel the same way as I do about them when I was TBM; assholes.

abby Wrote:
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> I feel the same way as I do about them when I was
> TBM; assholes.

You said it. ITA.

Non Devout, Non Believing but having to live with TBM wives, husbands, siblings, parents, neighbors etc. Until very recently the only way to leave the church was to be excommunicated, which meant completely shunned. I come from a long line of Jack-Mormons on my Father's side of the family. In fact in the town where my dad grew up, his family were often cited as being hard core jack mormons by the TBMs. No hypocrits, and most of them did not drink alcohol or smoke. Church was attended for baptisms, blessings and funerals, sometimes Christmas, sometimes ward dinners if personally invited.

The only time I have heard jack mormon used as a derisive term by exmos or non-mos is here on this forum.

Hedning Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------->
> The only time I have heard jack mormon used as a
> derisive term by exmos or non-mos is here on this
> forum.

On the rare occasions I heard the term growing up here in CA, mid 1970s-1980s, it was used only by non-Mormons. (Well, I knew virtually no Mormons when I was younger, so I wouldn't know whether Mormons used it.) It was never used derisively, however. The context would be something like:

"Randy had some good weed at that party."

"Isn't he Mormon?"

"Yeah, but he's a Jack Mormon. Cool guy."

I was a very, very good kid (or nerd, depending on your point of view) and did way less "bad" (or fun) stuff than any of the Jack Mos!

Or, it might be:

"Sandra's mom is such a nice woman."

"Doesn't their family go to St. Leander's?" (I grew up in a predominantly Catholic area.)

"No, she's Jack Mormon I guess. She told me she was raised Mormon in Utah, but she said she never goes to church."

The term never had any negative connotation, though, as far as I can recall. It seemed to be the Mormon equivalent of "Raised Catholic but only goes to church on Easter and Christmas.

WTF is a jack mormon, anyway ?

A Jack Mormon believes in and/or supports the Mormon church, but does not attend church nor live the lifestyle.

What's "the lifestyle" ?

Use of coffee, tea, alcohol, etc., does not meet dress standards, and so on. A Jack Mormon basically lives a non-Mormon lifestyle but still retains some level of belief in the church and support of the church. A Jack Mormon can be among the most ardent defenders of the church. "Do as I say, not as I do."

My uncle in Southern Utah is a "Jack mormon."
Openly drinks coffee & beer. Openly smokes.
Is still a believer.

He's very talented musically, and for many years was the ward organist. With everyone is his small town knowing his "Jack" status (hell, he goes to the main cafe in town every morning for coffee and smokes with the fellas, they all know). He never had any problem with a temple recommend or a calling until about 5 years ago.

At that time, the bishop told him that he could no longer have him be the organist if he continued "breaking the WoW." And that he'd have to deny him a temple recommend, too.

From what my uncle told me, he told the bishop (some 30 years his junior) that he'd been a mormon longer than the bishop had been alive, that nobody had ever had a problem with him, and that if all of a sudden they were going to try and force him to change, they could go screw themselves.

Then he told me that 3 weeks later, the bishop asked him to come back and play the organ again.

I don't know if he got his TR back.

Ha! The bishop overplayed his hand. The ability to play the organ is a valuable commodity. Good for your uncle!

There are obviously some healthy strains of honest mutt in your genealogy. :)

Both of my parents became Jack Mormons following their divorce. IMO they were more authentic than many of those who were active churchgoers.

Mom and stepdad lived in Utah. I didn't care much for him, but they were compatible.

Your definition of Jack Mormons is not one I'm familiar with. Jack Mormons means to me a believing Mormon who stopped attending TSCC altogether. For familial reasons or beliefs they just didn't get around to resigning.

Someone who attends the cult regularly while violating all its paramount rules is a hypocrite.

Jack Mormons tend to be more authentic than that IMO.