I was told as an investigator that these forms are more "respectful" than the standard "you."

Of course, anyone who speaks another language knows that this is not true. In Spanish, there is "Usted" (formal) and "tú" (familiar.) Which is encouraged for prayer at the MTC?

Seems to me that I've seen Spanish scriptures with the archaic forms "vosotros" and "vuestro," which are not normally used in the New World. I understand them when I hear or read them, but it would be very difficult for me to use them in conversation.

What do they teach mishies in the LTM these days?

I didn't serve a mission but was taught to pray how you describe by my primary and SS teachers.

Don't believe that has changed. It's done to convey more respect to the creator than to address him in everyday standard form.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's done to
> convey more respect to the creator than to address
> him in everyday standard form.

Is it?
Or is it done that way because that's the way the bible most people are familiar with is written, so it sounds (to them) "holy"?

Those word forms are actually (as the OP pointed out) *less* "respectful." They're familiar word forms, not formal ones.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amyjo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's done to
> > convey more respect to the creator than to
> address
> > him in everyday standard form.
>
> Is it?

That is how it was taught to us. Was it to you when you were growing up?

> Or is it done that way because that's the way the
> bible most people are familiar with is written, so
> it sounds (to them) "holy"?
>
> Those word forms are actually (as the OP pointed
> out) *less* "respectful." They're familiar word
> forms, not formal ones.

Prayer can take any form at all. It is the words from the heart that matter over formality.

But the teaching format we were taught in primary was in the Name of the Father, as in "Our father in heaven," then to give thanks. Then make requests and supplications. Then finish in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

How were you taught as LDS?

Yes, that's what I was taught.
My point was that what was taught was wrong.
It's *not* "more respectful." Those are familiar, not respectful/formal word forms.

It just sounds "biblical."

"Following the Norman invasion of 1066, thou was used to express intimacy, familiarity or even disrespect, while another pronoun, you, the oblique/objective form of ye, was used for formal circumstances. In the 17th century, thou fell into disuse in the standard language, often regarded as impolite, but persisted, sometimes in an altered form, in regional dialects of England and Scotland, as well as in the language of such religious groups as the Society of Friends."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2018 09:30AM by ificouldhietokolob.

In prayer format it is still widely accepted and practiced. Not only among Mormons.

Yes, it is.
And the use of those forms as "respectful" is mistaken. It's not just mormons who ignorantly ignore what words actually mean.

Those words wouldn't matter to jews since god doesn't hear their prayers anyway.

Yes! Some of us were made to feel inferior because our prayers didn't follow their stupid rules. It was just another excuse (like high morality looking down on others with WoW issues; drinking coffee or tea) for members to criticize and judge others.

No wonder some members refuse to pray in front of others.

And to have fun, let's throw in the temple's "true order of prayer" which is just plain silly and means nothing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2018 03:01PM by messygoop.

All the Hispanics I know use the 'tu' form when addressing El Senor.

This is bullshit! The English “thou” comes from the French “tu” (the familiar and intimate form). The English “you” comes from the French “vous” (the formal form).

In languages where there are formal and intimate forms, Christians use the intimate form. For example, in German, I would address God as “du,” not “sie;” in French, “tu,” not “vous” This is congruent with Jesus addressing God as Abba (A very intimate address for “father” best translated as Daddy).

But, it should be noted, LDS asshat Bruce R. McConkie taught that Mormons should not have an intimate relationship with God. So, given Brutie Bruce’s teachings, you is the more acceptable address.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2018 12:24PM by BYU Boner.

Exactly.

The translators/authors of the KJV bible intentionally used the "familiar" forms when doing their work. To emphasize that Jesus and his disciples were intimates, and close. To emphasize that Jesus and god were intimate and close. To emphasize that humans could be intimate with god. They intentionally didn't use the formal, respectful language available in English.

Then mormons (and some other religions) -- mostly out of ignorance -- start to claim that those forms are formal and "respectful." When the exact opposite is the case.

It's the same reason Joseph (and whomever else participated in writing) used "biblical" language when making up the BoM. It's a dead giveaway that he didn't "translate" anything -- because if it had been real, the ancient authors of the plates wouldn't have known anything about the KJV translators, and wouldn't have used the forms those middle-age English guys used intentionally. Joseph (& co.) simply wanted their book to sound "biblical," as if that would make it seem "holy."

It did the opposite.

When I first started checking out other churches, it would grate on my nerves like fingernails on a chalkboard when I'd hear someone praying and using "you" and "your." The funny thing is that now when I hear a Mormon prayer it sounds so phony with all the thees and thous. More than that, it kind of startles me because I just don't hear it anymore.

I think regular English sounds natural now because if I hear the Bible quoted or for some reason want to read a Bible passage, I use the NIV, as I think a majority of people do now. And I think most churches, at least the liberal Christian ones I've been to, use it also. I'd imagine it's the highest selling version, but I'm too lazy to look it up. The reason the Mormons use KJV is because it's the one JS copied from so they think the formal old English makes the BOM sound credible.

Or not praying.

"Our Father, who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven ..."

I like the thee's, thou's, and thy's.

:)

And you're against change!

It doesn't help that Dallin Oaks gave a general conference talk on this subject in 1993, with completely disingenuous reasoning on why English speakers should use formal (vs. familiar) pronouns in prayers.

Here's some commentary on the topic: http://www.timesandseasons.org/harchive/2009/05/thou-thee-thy-from-other-angles/

And a link to Oaks' original talk: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/04/the-language-of-prayer

It's an excellent example of his talents as a bullshit artist, and his ability to do prevaricate with a straight face.

But he practically contorts himself into a verbal pretzel as he tries to reason his way into a position why "thee" and "thou" (even though, as he admits, they were once used to connote equality, intimacy, or even inferiority in social situations) can now be re-defined as the proper language of prayer.

Apparently it's because hardly anybody uses those forms for much anyway, these days, so they might as well be re-appropriated, and re-defined, to fit the Mormon notion of addressing deity.

This makes more sense to me than any other explanation I have heard.

Thanks to all who have contributed so far. When English is your only language, it isn't so confusing. But when you have acquired a second (or more) language, the conundrum of "Usted" vs "tú" or "vous" vs "tu" becomes more important. It's a concept that we don't really have in contemporary English, in everyday speech.

"you" used to be the plural and "thee/thou" was the singular form. Since "you" is now both singular and plural it has given rise to words like "y'all" which fills the void of a missing plural "you". I live in Minnesota and use it regularly even though it's mostly a Southern convention.

As was pointed out Spanish has both the formal and familiar plural form of "you": "ustedes" and "vosotros". Although the latter is only really practiced in Spain any more.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2018 01:48PM by mrtranquility.

I use y'all in informal writing (like here) because English desperately needs a plural "you". Plus part of my family is Southern, so grits and y'all feel normal to me. Just like "thine" feels normal in the Lord's Prayer.

I see the major problem with KJV English is that most people now are not familiar with it at all unless they grew up in one of those religions that froze their culture in such a way as to continue using the KJV Bible. That is becoming a smaller and smaller subset of the Christian tradition.

So, now it is just one more hurdle for a new member to clear, and an increasingly difficult and silly hurdle at that. For the Boomer BICs among us, it's easy, because we heard it all of our lives. for a lot of people, Millennials in particular, I imagine it is a serious WTF moment. It brings back unpleasant memories to them of trying to make sense of Shakespeare, and wondering what an arras and bodkin are.

Which is just one more reason why English speaking Millennials are not flocking to Mormonism.

The familiar form is still used in several European languages, so it is not a particular problem there. I have no idea how all the thees and thous of the BoM translate into non-Indo-European languages.

Even JS botched the Elizabethan English forms pretty regularly in the BoM, and Mormons today are far worse, because they don't understand the rules, they are just imitating other Mormons and the BoM as best they can. They are the new Hutterites/Amish/Mennonites. They just froze their culture a couple of centuries later, in the 1950s. Except for the FLDS, which froze men in the 1950s and women in the 1870s.

Where ghawd and the prophets screwed up is allowing the use of verbs.

The church insists on the use of "thee", "thou", "thine" etc as personal pronoun forms.

Does anyone really believe that a God who created 'worlds without number' (and presumably human) languages without number to boot) would really give a toss about whether or not someone said 'you', 'your' etc instead?

The reality is that this is just another (albeit small & petty) control technique.

It's about conformity, submission and sugjugation of the Masses.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2018 10:17AM by quatermass2.

Back when I was still a TBM, we had a couple assigned to give talks about prayer. They both focused on how disrespectful it was to not use thee, thou, and thy because it wasn't formal. They pretty much scolded the whole congregation. I noticed that the person giving the closing prayer said you and your. Even as a TBM, I thought to myself what a couple petty asshats these people are.

Mormons like to use the KJV language, in order to sound more holy, in front of others. Women like to use the soft, child-like "temple voice", and the men use sonorous, authoritative-sounding GA voices, with the drop at the end of each sentence. "Thus saith the LOOORD."

I'm holier than any of them, because I pray in Reformed Egyptian.