Just a passing thought, but what if we are all wrong about the churches financial position?

Just for the sake of argument, lets say 'true' power of discernment was not used, and many times the church became the victim of financial embezzlement, shady investments, and other Hoffman type scams.

In addition to the falling conversion rates of the affluent, the stagnant growth rate outside of impovershed area/nations, the natural attrition due to smaller TBM families, bankruptcies/foreclosures in Utah, and lawsuit hush money paid under the table.

We simply do not know because of the secrecy ploicy involving anything financial in the church.

I would suggest that actions such as the cleaning missions, cutting food budgets for the missionaries, cold/hot buildings, shameful tithing requests/demands may be a sign that we are all wrong in our thinking that the church has all this wealth. It may be a Madoff house of cards.

Hinckley stated publicly that many of the properties owned by the church were not income producing properties.

Just the utility bills on the temples must be huge.

I copied this from a post here on this board back in 2005. Thanks to the original poster.


Secret Agent exMo

These are the corporations that I know of or could find. Add more if you know more!


Deseret Management Corporation - http://www.deseretmanagement.com/
Beneficial Financial Group - http://www.beneficialfinancialgroup.com/
Bonneville International - http://www.bonnint.com/
Bonneville Communications - http://www.bonneville.com/
Bonneville Interactive Services
Bonneville Satellite - http://www.bonnevillesatellite.com/
35 Radio Stations
1 Television Station (KSL)
Deseret Book - http://deseretbook.com/
Excel Entertainment - http://www.xelent.com/
Deseret Morning News - http://deseretnews.com/dn
Hawaii Reserves - http://www.hawaiireserves.com/
Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC) - http://www.polynesia.com/ and http://www.polynesia.co.jp/
La'ie Shopping Center
La'ie Park
La'ie Cemetary
Hukilau Beach Park
La'ie Water Company
La'ie Treatment Works (sewer)
Mstar.net - http://www.mstar.net/preportal/index.asp
Temple Square Hospitality - http://www.htsc.net/ and http://www.hoteltsc.com/
Weddings (JSMB and Lion House)
The Inn at Temple Square - http://www.diningattemplesquare.com/
Lion House Pantry - http://www.diningattemplesquare.com/
The Roof Restaurant - http://www.diningattemplesquare.com/
The Garden Restaurant - http://www.diningattemplesquare.com/
Passages Restaurant - http://www.diningattemplesquare.com/
Zions Securities Corporation - http://www.zsc.com/

Farm Management Corporation (commericial farms and agricultural properties)
Deseret Land and Livestock
200,000 acres of land in Rich, Morgan and Weber counties (Utah)
Sun Ranch (Martin's Cove)
Deseret Ranches of Florida (Orlando) (largest ranch in Florida)
Deseret Farms of California
Rolling Hills (Idaho)
West Hills Orchards (Elberta, Utah)
Cactus Lane Ranch (Arizona)
(more)

Corporation of the Presiding Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (CPB)
Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Deseret Trust Company
LDS Family Services
Property Reserves Inc. (PRI)
Ensign Peak Advisors - http://www.imno.org/articles.asp?qid=123

Deseret Mutual Benefit Administrators (DMBA) - http://www.dmba.com/

Brigham Young University (BYU) - http://home.byu.edu/webapp/home/index.jsp
BYU - Idaho - http://www.byui.edu/
BYU - Hawaii - http://www.byuh.edu/index.jsp
LDS Business College - http://www.ldsbc.edu/



Subject:


It used to be MUCH worse... A must read!!

Date:


Jul 22 16:47

Author:


Deconstructor

I thought you might find interesting this transcript of the US Senate Committee case regarding Mormon Senator Reed Smoot. Where did Mormon Church President Smith find time for meditation, let alone revelation?

Senate Committee Testimony Transcript:

Mr. Tayler (Senate Attorney):What is your business?
Mr. Smith (Mormon Prophet and President): My principle business is that of president of the church.
Mr. Tayler: In what other business are you engaged?
Mr. Smith: I am engaged in NUMEROUS other businesses.
Mr. Tayler: What?
Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of Zion's Cooperative Mercantile Institution.
Mr. Tayler: Of what other corporations are you an officer?
Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of the State Bank of Utah, another institution.
Mr. Tayler: What else?
Mr. Smith: PRESIDENT of Zion's Savings Bank and Trust Company.
Mr. Tayler: What else?
Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of the Utah Sugar Company.
Mr. Tayler: What else?
Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of the Consolidated Wagon and Machine Company.
Mr. Tayler: What else?
Mr. Smith: There are several other SMALL INSTITUTIONS with which I am associated.
Mr. Tayler: Are you associated with the Utah Light and Power Company?
Mr. Smith: I am.
Mr. Tayler: In what capacity?
Mr. Smith: I am a director and PRESIDENT of the company.
Mr. Tayler: A director and the president?
Mr. Smith: Yes, sir.
Mr. Tayler: Had you that in mind when you classified the others as 'small concerns'?
Mr. Smith: No sir, I had not that in mind.
Mr. Tayler: That is a 'large concern'?
Mr. Smith: That is a large concern?
Mr. Tayler: Are you an officer of the Salt Lake and Los Angeles Railroad Company?
Mr. Smith: I am.
Mr. Tayler: What?
Mr. Smith: PRESIDENT and director.
Mr. Tayler: Of what else are you President?
Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of the Salt Air Beach Company.
Mr. Tayler: What else, if you can recall.
Mr. Smith: I DO NOT RECALL JUST NOW!
Mr. Tayler: What relation do you sustain to the Idaho Sugar Company?
Mr. Smith: I am a director of that company and also the PRESIDENT of it.
Mr. Tayler: Of the Inland Crystal Salt Company?
Mr. Smith: Also the SAME POSITION THERE.
Mr. Tayler: The Salt Lake Dramatic Association?
Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of that and also a DIRECTOR.
Mr. Tayler: Are you president of any other corporation there?
Mr. Smith: I DO NOT KNOW. PERHAPS YOU CAN TELL ME!! I DO NOT REMEMBER ANY MORE JUST NOW!
Mr. Tayler: It would seem that the number has grown so large that it would be an undue tax upon your memory to charge you with naming them all.
Mr. Smith: What relation do you sustain to the Salt Lake Knitting Company? Did I already ask you about it?
Mr. Smith: No sir, you did not.
Mr. Tayler: The Salt Lake Knitting Company?
Mr. Smith: I am PRESIDENT of it, and also a director.
Mr. Tayler: The Union Pacific Railway Company?
Mr. Smith: I am a DIRECTOR.
Mr. Tayler: Are you an official of any mining companies?
Mr. Smith: Yes, sir.
Mr. Tayler: What?
Mr. Smith: I am the vice-president of the Bullion, Beck and Champion Mining Company.
Mr. Tayler: The Deseret News?
Mr. Smith: No, sir.
Mr. Tayler: You have no business relations with that?
Mr. Smith: NO SIR.
Mr. Tayler: Is the Deseret News the 'organ of the Church'?
Mr. Smith: Well, I suppose it is in some sense the 'organ of the church'. It is not opposed to the church, at least.
Mr. Tayler: It has for years published, has it not, at the head of its columns, that it is "the organ of the church", or the "official organ of the church"?
Mr. Smith: Not that I know of.
Mr. Tayler: Do you know who owns it?
Mr. Smith: How is that?
Mr. Tayler: Do you know who owns it?
Mr. Smith: I know who owns the building that it is in.
Mr. Tayler: Who owns the building in which it is published?
Mr. Smith: The church.
Mr. Tayler: The church?
Mr. Smith: Yes, sir.
Mr. Tayler: Tell us what you know about the owners of that newspaper.
Mr. Smith: It has been for a number of years past owned by a company --- AN INCORPORATED COMPANY.
Mr. Tayler: What is the name of the company?
Mr. Smith: The Deseret News Publishing Company.
Mr. Tayler: Do you know who its officers are?
Mr. Smith: No, it is not owned by that company.
Mr. Tayler: Oh, it is not?
Mr. Smith: No; it is not.
Mr. Tayler: What do you know ----
Mr. Smith: But I say for years it was owned by a company of that kind.
Mr. Tayler: What do you know about its present ownership?
Mr. Smith: I presume that the present ownership is IN THE CHURCH.
Mr. Tayler: You suppose the present owner is 'the church'?
Mr. Smith: Yes, sir; the church.
Mr. Tayler: I do not want to have any misconstruction put upon your use of the word 'presume' because you do not know that it is so owned?
Mr. Smith: I really do not know so that I could tell you positively.
Mr. Tayler: Who would know?
Mr. Smith: I PRESUME I could find out.
Mr. Tayler: Could you find out before you leave Washington?
Mr. Smith: Perhaps so.

(SOURCE: Reed Smoot Case transcript, Vol. 1, pp. 81, 82, 83, 86, 87, and 88)

A day later, because the ownership of the Deseret News and its articles were keys to the case, Joseph F. Smith testified:

Mr. Tayler: In what form does your church have title to the Deseret News property?
Mr. Smith: It owns the deed.
Mr. Tayler: I am speaking of the newspaper, not the building.
Mr. Smith: The press; yes. I would like to state that when I was asked that question before, Mr. Tayler, I was not aware of the fact that I have since learned from my counsel here that during the trusteeship of Lorenzo Snow the Deseret News plant was transferred from the Deseret News Company to Lorenzo Snow, trustee, in trust. I was not aware of the fact, Mr. Chairman, when that question was asked me yesterday, I believe it was. I have since learned that that is the fact and that my counsel who is here made out the papers for the transfer. .....
Mr. Tayler: So that it is now in YOU as trustee in trust?
Mr. Smith: NOW I OWN IT AS TRUSTEE IN TRUST. Furthermore, I will say that I have discovered since yesterday that there is published on the second or third page of the Deseret News the statement that it is the "organ of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints"
(Reed Smoot case, Vol. 1, page 158).

As you can see, the Mormon Church has been about business for a very long time.

but how do you know all those are PROFITABLE? :-P


...what was that about a mall?

I have seen the list of businesses. However, I still must question the overall financial strength of the TSCC as they are also sustaining an empire of non revenue producing properties, some very well paid people at an executive level, not to mention the huge political contributions/bribes.

Yes the list of businesses is impressive, however, we do not know if these businesses are enough to sustain themselves let alone support the Mormon real estate empire.

The big banks needed to be bailed out, for betting on bad decisions such as the church is undertaking with the mall project.

We simply do not know.

It would be pretty funny if the church fell apart over financial shenanigans. Just imagine what the people would think about their prophetic leadership!
I'd sure hate to see all the jobs lost though.

For me, its just a matter of simple logic. If tscc has enough money to spend 3 billion on a mall, with a retractable roof, and their claim is that none of that money came from tithing, then I must assume that the business they are involved in gave them enough profit that they can spend 3 billion plus on a commercial mall. Its not hard to reach that conclusion, given the fact that they will not say any more than that about where the money came from. If you think they are not profitable, I think you are very naive.

'their claim is that none of that money came from tithing'

They simply lie about everything........

I hate when I look at a thread like this and decide not to say anything provocative and then lie down only to be tormented by it a few hours later...

Whatever the church membership numbers are, and we know they're inflated, the tithing moneys keep flowing in...

Robert N. Baskin detailed this over a century ago in "Reminiscences of Early Utah."

It's a cash cow pyramid scheme that keeps the golden eggs coming...

If all of your positions are correct then it is perfectly safe to assume that the church is led only by men.

As for Hinckley, he was a professional Public Relations man for the church for many years. Everything he ever said should be taken with that in mind.

But as others have said- if the church can afford to pay cash for a 3B mall, and to buy up prime real estate at a time when prices are grossly inflated, it can't have serious money problems.

And besides, except for two, all of the Q12 are business professionals. And none of them are theologians.
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,26628,26628#msg-26628

My question is, with the housing and financial crisis, how much did they lose? Because you know the people needing help has greatly increased (you see this with other churches, food banks, etc across the country). So if the corporation lost a lot, needs to pay out more to help people and these people aren't getting help and stop paying tithing, the corp is losing even more. I wonder if they aren't hurting with all the increased "need" from members. Most of the tithing comes from U.S. members, but the U.S. was the hardest hit by the economic crisis.

I think Oakes warned the members in so many words that they've been instructed for years to be prepared, so no one better come crawling to the church for help now that the economic times are tough. So they are probably not spending more on members in need. (they care SO much about the people!)