Did you know this is the actual recorded history? (I didn't !)

This is some of the history re: getting the Nephite Record/ Joseph Smith not the only psychic in vicinity of Palmyra, the Urum and Thummin etc. Do Mormons read these books today? Do any of them know what their own history records actually say? (I don't think so. It's not what is taught by the missionaries!)

Official Church History.
"A Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." by B.H. Roberts
Church Historian (1857-1933), Deseret Book Co., 1930.


Most of these early accounts are in Vol 1.

" "A Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." by B.H. Roberts

VOL 1 "How the Book of Mormon was Obtained"

These books are in the LDS Data base on CD, also in their libraries (Ward/Stake/Institute of Religion)in the REFERENCE section.

I own the whole set in paperback which I purchased in the late 70s before they were discontinued, another interesting story of how I found them many years later in the Institute library just sitting on the shelf and not cataloged.(Had my name in them, I bought them when I worked there!)


A few notes:
B H Roberts says that they were dressed "for riding" by taking the horse and spring wagon of Mr. Knight (some would call this stealing, as they did not ask permission of Mr. Knight who was a guest in his home) and went to the "hill Cumorah, and in he presence of Moroni obtained the Nephite record, the breast-plate and Urim and Thummim.

pg. 87,
"Early the next morning, Mr. Knight discovered both his horse and wagon were gone, suspected some "rogue had stolen them. Lucy Smith volunteered no information as to Joseph having made use of the horse and wagon, but tried to pacify Mr. Knight with the idea that they were but temporarily out of the way."

When Joseph returned home, he took his mother aside and showed her the Urim and Thummim which he had evidently detached from the breast plate and concealed on his own person when depositing the plates...he seemed to have kept the instrument constantly about him after that time as by means of it he could at will be made aware of approaching danger to the record."

(This is one of my favorite chapters that sets the state for how this all unfolded at the time.)
The next chapter is entitled:
pg. 88 Other Psychics Than the Prophet
"The fact was that Joseph Smith was not the only psychic in the vicinity of Palmyra."

He had previously asked Lucy (his mother) very early in the morning if she had a chest with a lock and key but she could not locate one.

This is the reason Joseph pg. 86 "concealed them temporarily, in the woods some two or three miles distant. He found a fallen birch log that was much decayed .....carefully cutting the bark and removing sufficient of the decayed wood to admit ...the plates, ...they were deposited in the cavity, the bark drawn together again and as far as possible all signs of the log having been disturbed obliterated."

Pg 93 - "The Breastplate of Urim and Thummim

"It has been several times remarked that with the plates on which a brief history of the ancient American peoples was engrave, there was an ancient breast-plate to which, when the Prophet took possession of it, the Urim and Thummim were attached.

This breast-plate it appears the Prophet did not bring home with him when he brought the record. But a few days later, according to a statement by Lucy Smith, he came into the house from the field one afternoon and after remaining a a short time put on his "great coat" and left the house.

On his returning the mother was engaged in an upper room of the house preparing oilcloth for painting - it will be remembered that this was an art she has followed for some years. Joseph called to her and asked her to come down stairs.

To this she answered she could not then leave her work, but Joseph insisted and she came downstairs and entered the room where he was whereupon he placed in her hands the Nephite breast plate herein alluded to.

'It was wrapped in a a thin muslin handkerchief,' she explains, 'so thin that I could feel it's proportions without any difficulty'.

It was concave on one side, convex on the other and extended from the neck downwards as far as the center of the stomach of a man of extraordinary size. It had four straps of the same material, for the purpose of fastening it to the breast, two of which ran back to go over the shoulders and the other two were designed to fasten to the hips.

They were just the width of two of my fingers (for I measured them). and they had holes in the end of them, to be convenient in fastening. After I had examined it, Joseph placed it in the chest with the Urim and Thummin."
[paragraphs added for ease in reading]"

Troubles keeping the Nephite Record out of nefarious hands of other psychics.)

Vol 1
Pg 90
Was the Nephrite Record in Danger
He goes on.....
These reflections indulged, we may now return to the statement with which they began-viz,Joseph Smith was not the only psychic in the vicinity of Palmyra. A Miss Chase, sister of Willard Chase, the Methodist class elder, already mentioned, had for some time been accredited with psychic powers of the mind, and practiced "crystal-gazing;" and besides this , remarkable as it may seem, parties in the neighborhood of the smith home, numbering some ten or twelve men sent a distance of sixty or seventy miles for a psychic-"conjuror" they called him --to come to Palmyra and to discover the whereabouts of "Joe Smith's gold bible."

The elder Smith learned of the arrival of this person at the home of Willard Chase, and heard him boast in the presence of his employers that he would "have them plates in spite of Joe Smith or all the devils in hell."

The day after taking possession of the Nephite record, the young Prophet was offered the job of digging a well for Mrs. Wells, of Macedon, a village some three miles west of Palmyra, and the family standing much in need of the money promised for the work, Joseph immediately accepted the employment...However, he never finished because of the threat of the other "conjurer" on his trail.

This is the beginning of the tale of how Joseph came back and assured his father and family that the record was saFe, was hidden near the home and Hyrum gave him a chest, with a lock and key and Joseph wrapped them in a farmer's "smock. and then he went through the woods .."his enemies were evidently on the watch for him, for three times he was assaulted by as many different persons; but being strong and athletic by dint of blows and flight he threw them off and finally reached home utterly exhausted from the excitement and the fatigue."

This is when he got his father and Mr Knight and Mr Stoal to search for the assailants (which was fruitless)
and Hyrum came with the cheST with the lock and key.

"It seems that in knocking down his third assailant, Joseph had dislocated his thumb ....and he requested his father to put it in place.
Joseph then remained at home with his family to secure the sacred record entrusted to him where he worked on the farm with his brothers."

Commentary:
Yup. That's plausible! Sure it is! But the people close to Joseph believed him wholeheartedly!

In my experience, it would be hard to find two Mormons who knew any of this history or the different statements from early history. As a member I would have not been one of those two members! Even though I was more informed than many, I learned most of this info on my way out of the church.

From the faith induced spiritual witness testimony bearing members, none of this is important. It is, in their probably answer, not necessary for their salvation. While it is interesting, and as we "were not there" as they often say, it just shows that "God Works in Mysterious Ways His Wonders to Perform"!

The details of how it was done doesn't matter to a testimony bearing Mormon, only that that Joseph Smith Jr was the prophet chosen by Jesus Christ to Restore the only True Church of Jesus Christ in the Latter Days to usher in the Last Dispensation with the keys to the saving ordinances.

That's it in a nut shell. The actual history and different accounts have no bearing on that "spiritual witness" of "I know" it's true.
If it isn't "faith promoting" it's not good for anything!

Also, that stone trick is not believable. Martin Harris could not find a stone to fool Joseph Smith Jr. No two stones are alike anyhow.

Footnote: I think we all know why these actual recorded histories are not taught anymore. The white-washed, official story is more believable. Or is it?

Once I read some of these histories and others in the Reference Section at the Institute of Religion Library, I was, initially in a state of shock. Then reason took over. This is just too strange to believe. And there went that faith-based testimony - gone forever!

Converts: Do you think if you knew any of the real original history you would have joined?

I don't know that we teach that.

Seriously, the books have been suppressed. B.H. Roberts was a good historian, faithful but honest. When he later did intensive research on the BoM, he asked the Q15 for answers and they could not give them. He then lost his faith in that book and, for the rest of his life, only testified of the D&C.

His Comprehensive History was written before he lost faith in the BoM, so it wasn't tainted by his subsequent doubts. But he was so honest, so inclusive, when compiling his History that it would inevitably raise eyebrows in the modern, correlated era.

If you have a copy, or can buy it, you may want to do so. That set of books is hard to find now.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> If you have a copy, or can buy it, you may want to
> do so. That set of books is hard to find now.

I bought a paperback edition of the whole set of the Comp. Hist back in the last 70's that I found when doing some research. I was an Institute Secretary for awhile. I still have it.

The problem is other accounts are twisted and folded into a story like a rough piece of cord that becomes almost impossible to know where the different versions and accounts come from... Emma, various scribes, family members, Oliver, Martin, Sydney, other financial supporters. It's all quite confusing nailing down what there is written evidence for. The more one digs the clearer it becomes it is all manure.

Hedning Wrote:
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There are at least seven accounts of the so-called First Vision, and they differ a great deal.
I worked as an Institute Secretary in the late 70s so I had access to the latest acceptable history!

SQ:

for us of the Challenged Ilk...


what is the most glaring error/anomaly/disconnect?

to my feeble mind, that didn't come thru.

I learned the Emma was with Joseph when he "obtained" the plates after "borrowing" (stealing) a friends horse and wagon from Lucy's account. I had no idea Roberts wrote it that way as well.

The church glosses over this event by simply stating Joseph (no mention of Emma) obtained the plates.

So the question I have is... did Emma see Moroni, the box and its contents as well as the plates?

Heartless Wrote:
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> I learned the Emma was with Joseph when he
> "obtained" the plates after "borrowing" (stealing)
> a friends horse and wagon from Lucy's account. I
> had no idea Roberts wrote it that way as well.
>
> The church glosses over this event by simply
> stating Joseph (no mention of Emma) obtained the
> plates.
>
> So the question I have is... did Emma see Moroni,
> the box and its contents as well as the plates?

According to the rest of the record, as I recall, Emma was some distance away. That was the only way Joseph could make all his claims and get away with it. He told the biggest whoppers! :-)
Several people claim to have "hefted" the plates (in a pillow case, I believe) or saw them in their mind's eye, but all of their accounts differ in size and weight.
If they were real, wouldn't it be easy to just measure and weigh them? Can't do that because he made up something to put in the pillow case, or box, and claim nobody was allowed to see them. He was one clever Snake Oil Salesman!

GNPE Wrote:
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> SQ:
>
> for us of the Challenged Ilk...
>
>
> what is the most glaring
> error/anomaly/disconnect?
>
> to my feeble mind, that didn't come thru.


HI GNPE! Just got back to this thread. This all happened in a time when people were willing to accept someone's claim of visions. That might happen today, but to a smaller group of people or a specific religious culture.
LDS writer (since exed) D. Michael Quinn explains it very well in his book: "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View."

The fascinating thing is Joseph's ability to make claims that were a complete hoax disguised as religious esoteric knowledge. Claiming heavenly visitations gave him a lot of religious clout. Everything he did from then on became scripture as he was speaking to Heavenly Father.

The idea that one had to have some kind of super faith to "see" what he claimed he had appealed to the people around him.
It's interesting to note that those that organized the original church on April 6, 1830 were his family and friends of the family.

The disconnect? For me, it's the idea that metaphysical, supernatural claims can be so easily fabricated while believers are giving their lives for those claims.
It is still happening today in most religions.

TV preachers make millions from people who are so starved for some purpose in their lives that they gravitate in thousands and accept the teachings from the Bible, from these men and women who sell their brand of religion with trinkets and gifts.
Human nature has not changed form Joseph Smith Jrs time.