I know it wasn't the seeing jesus and god in a forest thing or the angel showing up in a bedroom bs. Was this all planned and mapped out by js? Or did he have a lot of help mapping this out? Curiousity is getting the best of me right now.

He was wondering which church was true. And was raised a Presbyterian by his mother. And like most boys who have bossy mothers, he began to wonder about it all. His father was more aware of the BS of organized religion (he was perhaps the wiser one in the family?)

James 1:5

anono this week Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He was wondering which church was true. And was
> raised a Presbyterian by his mother. And like most
> boys who have bossy mothers, he began to wonder
> about it all. His father was more aware of the BS
> of organized religion (he was perhaps the wiser
> one in the family?)
>
> James 1:5

I heard this version not knowing which one was true and all. So this sparked him wanting to make up a religion of his own?

We'll probably never *really* know.
The whole "seeing jesus in the forest" thing was made up many years after Smith came up with the "gold plates" and BoM scam.

His scam seemed to evolve as it went along -- and as people started to actually believe his BS.

I also don't think he ever actually wondered "which church is true." That's part of the made-up "I saw god and jesus in the forest" stuff that came much later. If Smith "wondered" anything, he wondered what he could do to make a bunch of money but not have to do very much work -- hence the "gold plates." And when -- to his amazement -- people actually started to believe the gold plates story, and believed he had some kind of magical "prophetic" gift to "translate" imaginary gold plates, he ran with it.

ificouldhietokolob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We'll probably never *really* know.
> The whole "seeing jesus in the forest" thing was
> made up many years after Smith came up with the
> "gold plates" and BoM scam.
>
> His scam seemed to evolve as it went along -- and
> as people started to actually believe his BS.
>
> I also don't think he ever actually wondered
> "which church is true." That's part of the
> made-up "I saw god and jesus in the forest" stuff
> that came much later. If Smith "wondered"
> anything, he wondered what he could do to make a
> bunch of money but not have to do very much work
> -- hence the "gold plates." And when -- to his
> amazement -- people actually started to believe
> the gold plates story, and believed he had some
> kind of magical "prophetic" gift to "translate"
> imaginary gold plates, he ran with it.

Ok i could see this happening. Starting with a gold plate story and then running with it as it kept going. This makes more sense that it started off with a small thing. I try to put myself into his head as i am also in my thirties. I don't think i would be bold enough to ever steal another man's wife though. That's a ballsy move for sure.

And there is a very firm basis for believing that the reason the BofM was written was simply to make money. Money was always very important to JS.

When the BofM didn't sell like hot cakes, a final effort was made to sell the Canadian copyright.

Then finally, when it became apparent that some people BELIEVED the content of the BofM, the decision was made to start a money-making church. "money making" has always been a linchpin.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And there is a very firm basis for believing that
> the reason the BofM was written was simply to make
> money. Money was always very important to JS.
>
> When the BofM didn't sell like hot cakes, a final
> effort was made to sell the Canadian copyright.
>
> Then finally, when it became apparent that some
> people BELIEVED the content of the BofM, the
> decision was made to start a money-making church.
> "money making" has always been a linchpin.

So the BofM was not selling well even back when it began? Did not know that.

This topic seems unique to ex-mormons because the rest of the secular world doesn't care as much about the origins of our cult leader like we do.

I suspect that JS was endowed with a strong public speaking ability (along with his desire to become rich) struck out on several get-rich-schemes. Once the buried treasure or fortune telling failed to pan out he stumbled upon the BOM. The origins of the BOM are murky even though he clearly copied it from several books to include the First Book of Napoleon and the War of 1812 (told in a scriptural style). If you watch the "How the book of mormon destroyed mormonism" video it becomes clear the BOM is an amalgam of many books that were available to JS.

The fact that mormonism grew to be as big as it was is amazing. Loads of people bought into it and left their homes with a desire to better their fortunes.

I personally am fascinated with the period of cult history that happened a month before JS's death. If you haven't looked into that you should. Find out more about the Nauvoo Expositor and read it. I was blindsided by that one. I attended 4 years of early morning seminary and several years of church institute classes and never understood what actually happened the month prior to JS's death.

I should probably mention Fawn Brodie's excellent book "No Man Knows My History". It is exhaustively researched and paints a clearer picture of what happened.

Good Luck!

praydude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This topic seems unique to ex-mormons because the
> rest of the secular world doesn't care as much
> about the origins of our cult leader like we do.
>
>
> I suspect that JS was endowed with a strong public
> speaking ability (along with his desire to become
> rich) struck out on several get-rich-schemes.
> Once the buried treasure or fortune telling failed
> to pan out he stumbled upon the BOM. The origins
> of the BOM are murky even though he clearly copied
> it from several books to include the First Book of
> Napoleon and the War of 1812 (told in a scriptural
> style). If you watch the "How the book of mormon
> destroyed mormonism" video it becomes clear the
> BOM is an amalgam of many books that were
> available to JS.
>
> The fact that mormonism grew to be as big as it
> was is amazing. Loads of people bought into it
> and left their homes with a desire to better their
> fortunes.
>
> I personally am fascinated with the period of cult
> history that happened a month before JS's death.
> If you haven't looked into that you should. Find
> out more about the Nauvoo Expositor and read it.
> I was blindsided by that one. I attended 4 years
> of early morning seminary and several years of
> church institute classes and never understood what
> actually happened the month prior to JS's death.
>
>
> I should probably mention Fawn Brodie's excellent
> book "No Man Knows My History". It is
> exhaustively researched and paints a clearer
> picture of what happened.
>
> Good Luck!

I don't know much about the month before JS died but i would like to know as much real history as i can. What i was told throughout my life does not match what really happened. Is the "no man knows my history" the most accurate of a telling that i can find out there?

Adam, you should start reading the history or at least become familiar with all the relevant points of belief/non belief. I started with the Tanners book "Mormonism, Shadow or Reality."

You cannot effectively defend your position of non-belief unless you know the history and all the significant points where Mormonism fails to stand up to the "truth test" better than those who may challenge your non-belief.

Also, knowing the true and unwashed history of the church helps you free yourself from the years of indoctrination.

There is a quote that I picked up somewhere and I don't know who originally said it.

"To really understand something is to be liberated from it."

In other words to apply it to our situation it needs to read "To understand the errors and falsehoods of the Mormon Church is to be liberated from it."

Felix Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Adam, you should start reading the history or at
> least become familiar with all the relevant points
> of belief/non belief. I started with the Tanners
> book "Mormonism, Shadow or Reality."
>
> You cannot effectively defend your position of
> non-belief unless you know the history and all the
> significant points where Mormonism fails to stand
> up to the "truth test" better than those who may
> challenge your non-belief.
>
> Also, knowing the true and unwashed history of the
> church helps you free yourself from the years of
> indoctrination.
>
> There is a quote that I picked up somewhere and I
> don't know who originally said it.
>
> "To really understand something is to be liberated
> from it."
>
> In other words to apply it to our situation it
> needs to read "To understand the errors and
> falsehoods of the Mormon Church is to be liberated
> from it."

Yes finding the exact truths will help set my mind free of many things and not to question myself or my stance because i don't have solid truths researched and solidified in my head. Instead of just being a blind leaf in the wind i want to know things with some heavy backing. I want to beat anybody in any conversation when it comes to my knowledge. This is a key to not being manipulated again as well i feel. If i really care about this and take it seriously it could set my mind free and get the lies and indoctrination or brainwashing out of my brain.

Read Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History"

It appears the whole business was set on foot by a gaggle of energetic New Englanders who sought out and found a gifted swindler and peep-stone freak named Joseph.

That conspiring gang with names like Cowdery, Rigdon and Pratt pilfered a long list of extant writings and wove them into a fanciful book which was fed to their designated author and proprietor Holy Joe.

This "prophet" and his handlers were on the road to cultish glory along with Mary Baker Eddy and flim-flam JayDub Russell.

Since suckers are born every minute, these types thrive.

elderpopejoy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It appears the whole business was set on foot by a
> gaggle of energetic New Englanders who sought out
> and found a gifted swindler and peep-stone freak
> named Joseph.
>
> That conspiring gang with names like Cowdery,
> Rigdon and Pratt pilfered a long list of extant
> writings and wove them into a fanciful book which
> was fed to their designated author and proprietor
> Holy Joe.
>
> This "prophet" and his handlers were on the road
> to cultish glory along with Mary Baker Eddy and
> flim-flam JayDub Russell.
>
> Since suckers are born every minute, these types
> thrive.

This makes sense. This does feel like a group effort and not just a one man beginning it all.

(Apologies)

Whenever I see posts/threads like this, I do a FacePlant...

Mormonism is presented & Sold on a Highly Emotional basis; to almost 100%, Facts Don't Matter!

To me at least is the disconnect between Claims & R.L. experience, the every-day lack of Honesty & Kindness as focal points, the Highly Competitive nature of LDS society/culture.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2018 10:08PM by GNPE.

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (Apologies)
>
> Whenever I see posts/threads like this, I do a
> FacePlant...
>
> Mormonism is presented & Sold on a Highly
> Emotional basis; to almost 100%, Facts Don't
> Matter!
>
> To me at least is the disconnect between Claims &
> R.L. experience, the every-day lack of Honesty &
> Kindness as focal points, the Highly Competitive
> nature of LDS society/culture.

I know how its sold but i want to know how things really went down back then. I guess nobody knows in detail. Like are there journal accounts of people who were around during all of it?

I was just reading from Dialogue a list of the 50 most important books on LDS; they were presented in categories, 1 was 'anti-mormon'.

I found it reading Amazon reviews of Mormonism Shadow or Reality.

So my answer/response is Yes, there are well-reviewed as reliable books of period origin; I am reminded of the one by Joe's mother, another by Bennett.

It's really hard to say. Joe and his family were obviously con artists with their treasure hunting business and "finding the Golden Plates" obviously evolved from that. The First Vision story came years later.

Some theories suggest the writing of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the "true church" was a collaborative effort with co-conspirators (possibly, Rigdon, Cowdery, Emma or his family). Was Joseph Smith mainly a front man and others were the brains behind it or did he do it all on his own (or somewhere in between)? No one really knows.

Personally, I tend to think that when the Methodists rejected him, he thought, "Fine! Then I'll start my own church."

Greyfort Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Personally, I tend to think that when the
> Methodists rejected him, he thought, "Fine! Then
> I'll start my own church."

This might be a winner. This is exactly what i would do if i were him. This makes sense to me. Because it does feel like a religion someone would make up to benefit themselves after getting rejected by a christian religion.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMyggnt6y6o

Thanks dave i need to save that video.

Just my opinion after having left the church: It was a con. Much more lucrative than getting suckers to part with their money by persuading them that a rock in his hat could locate buried treasures. It also provided him the means for sex with many women, even the wives of his followers. He didn't die a martyr, his death was the result of people wising up and having had enough of his nonsense.

mikemitchell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just my opinion after having left the church: It
> was a con. Much more lucrative than getting
> suckers to part with their money by persuading
> them that a rock in his hat could locate buried
> treasures. It also provided him the means for sex
> with many women, even the wives of his followers.
> He didn't die a martyr, his death was the result
> of people wising up and having had enough of his
> nonsense.

I see, makes sense. He upped his con game basically.

The church started the same time the Erie Canal opened up upstate New York to the rest of the world. After the canal was built the second busiest US port was Buffalo, New York where the canal ended and Palmyria where Joseph lived was right on the canal. This is what caused all the excitement Jospeh was referred to in his history and I think Joseph wanted a piece of the action. Him and others fabricated a religion based on some concepts that were popular in New England at the time. American Indian being dependents of the lost tribes of Israel and such. Joseph was the chief salesman because he had the gift of charisma. Really simple as that. Just another con artist turning bullshit into a power base and getting lots of female tail. Not much different than the new age gurus you see today. They are making money and bopping their gullible female followers.

I once got lucky on a date when I told her that my family line was related directly back to Adam.

There are perks to men who know how to impress.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFrAq9mrqQo

mormon nomore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I once got lucky on a date when I told her that my
> family line was related directly back to Adam.
>
> There are perks to men who know how to impress.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFrAq9mrqQo

I was named after that first jackass, maybe i should use it to impress jk.

mormon nomore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I once got lucky on a date when I told her that my
> family line was related directly back to Adam.

ROFLMAO!!! :)

To those who believe the Adam and Eve story, shouldn't we all, by definition, be related directly back to Adam?

I roll my eyes whenever my MIL says that she is directly related to Adam and Eve. She even claims to have the genealogical evidence.

Uh huh.

GregS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To those who believe the Adam and Eve story,
> shouldn't we all, by definition, be related
> directly back to Adam?
>
> I roll my eyes whenever my MIL says that she is
> directly related to Adam and Eve. She even claims
> to have the genealogical evidence.
>
> Uh huh.

I came from a monkey actually. I can trace it to my father. My family are all monkeys wearing baker hats and doing handshakes. Probably as we speak.

Read "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins."

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_17?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=insiders+view+of+mormon+origins&sprefix=insiders+view+of+%2Caps%2C616&crid=1T2GEGHF49839

Also.....

Secret Combinations Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=mormon+counterfieting+books

Both are excellent and explain a lot about the origins of the church.

Jonny the Smoke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Read "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins."
>
> https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_17?url=s
> earch-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=insiders+view+of+
> mormon+origins&sprefix=insiders+view+of+%2Caps%2C6
> 16&crid=1T2GEGHF49839
>
> Also.....
>
> Secret Combinations Evidence of Early Mormon
> Counterfeiting 1800-1847.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search
> -alias%3Daps&field-keywords=mormon+counterfieting+
> books
>
> Both are excellent and explain a lot about the
> origins of the church.

Appreciate it. Looks like i have a lot of reading ahead of me in the future.

His duped subjects are still faithful.

weeder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> His duped subjects are still faithful.

I can never understand why they are faithful. The psychology of it all is fascinating. It's like a person that refuses to get their head out of an oven because they made a covanent to the oven. It will be the death of them but they do not care.

My main takeaway about Joseph was that he was sick of being poor and sick of working the land (as was pretty much everyone on the frontier, but hey - that's survival!) and after seeing how "into it" people got with religion and superstition (because we don't have to chop down trees in heaven, hallelujah!), he began experimenting with how gullible his neighbors were and it all just went to sh%& from there as it snowballed out of control. I think that Joseph dug himself into a hole by making TOO MUCH scripture because it's that much easier to disprove. Should have kept his spiritual mouth shut after the BOM but NO, he had to get further "revelation" and thanks to that we can easily see the truth! A huge scam!!

Who wants to know the "TRUE" history of tscc?

What do they want to do, get baptized, apostleized and fossilized?

readwrite-LO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who wants to know the "TRUE" history of tscc?
>
> What do they want to do, get baptized, apostleized
> and fossilized?

I want to know if there are journal accounts of how things really went down. Or something tangible.