I had originally posted this under the "What are you doing this Sunday" topic, but figured I should start a new topic.

My Sunday was spent arguing with my wife...again...because she feels she has to choose between me and the church. I told her, for the umpteenth time, the only people saying that she has to choose are her and whoever at church it is who put that notion in her head. I've made no demands on her regarding the church, but every few months she gives me an ultimatum that I must "choose" to join the church or she will leave me.

What triggered it yesterday was that she felt guilty for not going to church, though I had us both up in time to get ready if she wanted to go, which she has not wanted to do for several weeks now. Now it's my fault because I stopped getting her up and encouraging her to go because I knew she would feel guilty if she didn't.

She's never shown any inclination to know anything about the church beyond whatever the church told her, so I was pleasantly surprised Sunday morning when she started asking me about what I know that she doesn't know about the church. She sounded very sincere, like she was finally ready to hear what the church wasn't telling her; but I obviously misread her mood.

The whole argument is a blur, so I can't remember what questions she had actually asked, but they were along the lines of how the church lied and how do I, in general, discern who's telling the truth when there are competing narratives. There were also a series of questions with the same follow-up questions, "Do you consider yourself a good person? Why?"

At some point I sensed something was amiss and asked where she was going with all of this. And that's when the shit hit the fan.

On days like yesterday, I'm tempted to call her bluff and say, "Go ahead, choose the church. Good bye."

TSCC is either all in or all out. There is no such thing as a lukewarm LDS.

Their lives are laced with ultimatums. The world is seen through black and white lens, and there really isn't much wiggle room for the panorama outlying.

Or tolerance for anything less than the party line. The dogma is everything in Mormonism. You know this to be true, if you were ever one.

Wives and husbands choose all the time between the church aka cult, and their spouses, when faced with the ultimatum. You know which way the cookie will crumble unless and until she has her own epiphany. Until then, it's either you or the cult. In her mind she can't have both.

She is unequally yoked, and that is a burden too heavy to bear. It is what breaks apart Mormon marriages more than anything else, IMO, including infidelity.

I'm nevermo, and I had repeatedly told her before we married that I had no intent of ever joining another religion after I walked away from the Catholic Church.

She says that she was positive that I would convert once I read the Book of Mormon and learned what Mormonism was really about. She blames herself for not praying about whether it was right to marry me, but she wanted to marry me and didn't want to take the chance the God would say, "No!"

She says that, even though I've agreed to go with her to church to keep her company, she hates it whenever somebody approaches me at church and I act as though they are trying to convert me. I had to remind her that for a time that's exactly what they were doing. Elders, counselors, ward mission presidents (?), and HTs were stopping by specifically to talk to me about converting. It was only after I complained about the full-court press to my wife that she admitted they were doing so because she asked them to. So yeah, I think I have very good reason to question the motive of any Mormon who approaches me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2018 10:19AM by GregS.

Both of my ex-husbands were secular Catholics during years I was active TBM.

TSCC definitely messed with my judgment in marrying either man. And after we were married, we were never on the same wavelength because we shouldn't have married to begin with. No matter our religion, we were basically incompatible.

So, that being said, ask yourself are you otherwise compatible with your wife? Do you really love her, and is that feeling mutual? If you both can be devoted to the marriage in spite of the religion, then you stand a chance. She married you after all, with some wishful thinking on her part that you'd come around eventually. My aunt was a BIC TBM for life. Her husband was an inactive Jack Mormon for about as long. They were married for 60 years when she died from a stroke. Before then she finally went through the temple without him, after TSCC eased its restrictions about women being able to do that without their spouses. She waited a long time for him to go through with her. When that didn't happen she finally went through by herself. But there was no question in anyone's mind they loved each other and were committed to their marriage.

There are inter-faith marriages that go the distance. The problem with Mormonism is that nasty ultimatum black and white thinking that clouds the judgment of otherwise well-meaning people.

I do lover her, and I believe that she loves me, as well. Even as she's issuing her ultimatums, she acknowledges that I am her rock, and that I've shown her more love and support during our five years of marriage than she received during her 30 years married to her RM ex.

She insists that she wouldn't have stayed sane these past five years with all of the garbage she's gone through with her ex and her kids if it weren't for me holding her together. She even says that she feels ungrateful to me for feeling like she has to choose between me or the church.

There's some serious cognitive dissonance going on there. She's right there, but won't allow herself to take that last logical step through the door.

Agree with the cognitive dissonance. It is huge in the church.

In my experience, ultimatums are usually the final death throws in the relationship.
My now ex wife did the same thing. I too thought she loved me enough to stay together, until one day out of the blue she said she was moving out and wanted legal separation.

Mixed mo/nevermo(exmo) relationships are VERY difficult to sustain. The cult simply doesn’t allow for it.

Good luck!!

You have my sympathy. Sounds like a living hell. Hope you are able to work it out. Good luck!

...and to think you could have spent your Sunday lazily staying in bed, cuddling with your loved one...followed by a nice brunch including coffee and champagne/orange juice, enjoying each other's loving company throughout the day.

Instead, the church takes over and ruins what could have been a wonderful day for a married couple.

Stupid cult.

That's exactly how I thought the day was going to go, because that's exactly how most Sundays have gone for the past three or four months.

Instead, I got what I got yesterday.

If she knew right from the start you would not convert she has no right to bully you now, or ever.

Mormonism puts crazy ideas into people's heads about how the Book of Mormon and the "truth" of Mormonism converts people.
Her mistake was to listen to the cult instead of what you told her right from the start.

You may have to call her bluff or such scenes will repeat endlessly.

Wasn't it Fast Sunday yesterday? Uck.
Sitting through that crap for hours while hungry is sheer torture.

My mother did the same to my father. She kept insisting he take the missionary lessons. And he did twice. My oldest sibling remembers them fighting about it, so this lasted at least 6 or 8 years before she finally resigned herself to being a family without the priesthood in her home.

But she was still feeling sorry for herself at least until all of us kids were out of the house. She used to get angry and cry at the unfairness that her sister had a good husband who converted, but she didn't. She'd conclude with a sigh that she guessed this was her lot in life.

I think they take it personally. They must have done something wrong, or they're unloveable because if you loved them you would convert.

Honestly, even though you've given no ultimatums, you've made it clear you want her to leave the church. It sounds like that's why she baited you into criticizing it. So she wouldn't have to feel guilty about giving you an ultimatum.

Peace didn't come to our house until they agreed to disagree. She was free to spend her Sunday doing whatever she wanted and he was too. The agreed not to bring up religous beliefs or lack thereof, or to criticize how time was being spent on Sunday. Unfortunately, my father only stood up for himself and not us kids. He supported her in forcing us to go to church. I still harbor a little resentment towards him for that.

You were clear with her from the beginning that you weren't going to become Mormon. I think that you may have muddied the waters by attending with her, but even then, you were clear that you were not going to convert and didn't appreciate the pressure.

You need to put an end to the harassment. Do not argue with her about religion. Tell her that it is now an off limits topic. Tell her that whether she goes to church or not has nothing to do with you and you will have nothing to do with it. Tell her you will no longer discuss Mormonism.

Tell her that if she wants to divorce you over this, she needs to just do it, but the harassment has to stop, because you aren't going to tolerate it anymore.

If she asks you about what you know about the problems the Mormonism, cut her off. Tell her that she needs to figure that out for herself and you aren't going to discuss it.

If her behavior doesn't improve, she doesn't deserve to have you in her life to harass and abuse. In that case, I would file for divorce and be done with this circus.

I agree with this. Next time she threatens with divorce tell her to go ahead. Take the treat of divorce out of the situation.

Next, rent a storage unit and remove the excess stuff from the townhouse and let her set the rooms up so that they're usable. She probably feels like she's not moved in and living in YOUR space.

Whatever you do, don't buy a new place anytime soon.

"Whatever you do, don't buy a new place anytime soon."

This is the best advice he'll get on this board. Along with: Don't move out of your house if heading for separation.

GregS,my good friend has been a family (divorce) attorney for years. If the house was your before marriage, whatever equity you had in it stays yours if the marriage ends soon. You have 50/50 equity, along with your wife, in every accrued asset, including the value increase of your home, from the day you were married. IF you sell your home and buy a new house, no matter what equity you had before, that new home will be 50/50. Period. It sounds to me that your wife already knows this and may be setting you up for a financial bath. Keep your eyes open.

I like the statement "if she asks you what you think are the problems with Mormonism are -refuse to engage on the topic , divert change the topic, cut her off... BECAUSE

this negative feed getting your face time voice time presence
each time you engage it she brings it up- shifts the LOVE shifts the CARING shifting the DANCE shifts the MUSIC shifts the MOMENT from a Love Nest
----into YOU being the facetime of frustration
-----into YOU being the arms and shoulders attached to pain and emotional discomfort instead of LIFES GREATEST LOVER
-----into you being the facetime for discontent worry problems instead of DANCING. or LOVING or longed for SAFETY

if its loving put your face on it
if its fun for her put your face on it
if its delightful put your face on it
put your shoulders neck body self everything like an advertizment marketing poster onto the good loops, the good times the good conversations the good situations

Get the heck out of the loop of your face being stuck on a flag of life's great frustration, your face being the face talking lifes greatest worries, your face being the head on the shoulders stating she aint safe cause her church is a logical earthquake because the mess will glue onto you instead of your topic. Its uh like emotional flag attach to where the eyes blink when the feeling thinks. Its like um emotional post it note like an instamatic camera photograph clicks sound of your voice sight of your face sticky note feeling. The feeling is you- in the emotional post it note that was your face your voice.

I don't know about you but me, I would want life's best comfort great fun be a great wide receiver for my partner & bring up conversations where everyone has fun or great areas of concerns shining on their expertise, & avoid accepting a role of expert in areas of expertise that minimize or criticize frighten or attack one's partner within the relationship.
so when someone your with approaches with a question about what you think is wrong with their grandma's religion or their grandma's food or their grandma's kitchen - you just don't do that you don't answer. You are not the expert and will not be the expert on that analysis. In fact you will change the subject so you are not the object of some triggered tribal protective defensive reaction & dilute your place In the mini tribe in which you live. Really? criticize grandma's crocheting? that's unthinkable! well somehow grandma's religion is on that same level get a outraged (emotive) response.


I loved the poster's line where they said, " if she asks you what you think is wrong with Mormonism" and referred to refusing to engage on that theme, 'cut her off' and basically change the topic live life love be fun instead, since, You do not criticize someone's grandmother's food and get the happy face love love love stuck all over you. They just will take it wrong. & so it is with this

My wife just texted to tell me that her misery has little to do with me. Mother's Day is coming up and she misses her kids...the youngest is 26 or 27. She does want us to have a house so that she could invite her kids to stay with us.

The problem is that half of her kids aren't talking to her, and the half that does talk to her range from condescending to very condescending. Still, they are her kids and she misses them.

We are also living in the small townhouse I have owned since before we were married. The garage and guestroom are full of my wife's stuff that she brought with her. Whenever we've had guests, they've had to sleep on the floor or the couch in our living room. I've offered to put the one kid who accepted my wife's invitation up in a hotel while he and his girlfriend were here. He declined the invitation because he was apparently offended that I didn't insist he sleep on the floor.

The point is, even if we had room for them, her kids are asses and may not even accept an invitation from their mother; and even with the ones who would accept, I'd still need a place to retreat to. I'm not good around groups of people and value my private retreat from the world when I come home from work.

On top of all that, I'm not sure I want to buy a house with my wife if there's a real possibility that she's going to divorce me at any time after we move.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2018 11:58AM by GregS.

This is just more delusion. He children are grown adults. They are not going to come back to live with you in any shape or form. The house isn't the problem. Your wife's life and her expectations and her perceived losses are the problem.

If you do stay together it would make sense to sell the townhouse and buy something that has the space your wife would like, and you both to be more welcoming when her children do come to visit.

You've been together five years already. If that is/was the premarital home, it would make sense to have something that is both of yours equally to take pride in. Women are fussy about things like their home and room for their children to come visit.

Hopefully you feel like you're a part of their family too, because you married into it for better or worse.

My aunt and uncle who I mentioned in a prior post lived in a tiny two bedroom cabin where they raised eight children. Their house never seemed too small to me when I'd go to visit with my family. It was filled with love. My aunt made everyone feel welcome, and there was always room for us no matter who showed up to visit. By the time I came along her children were grown, but she had a straggler or two every now and then, and grandchildren who'd come live with her for spells at a time. They added an extra bedroom on the back of the house, around the time they built their indoor bathroom. That's right. For years, they used an outhouse before they had indoor plumbing. I was a young child during those visits, and remember that well too.

It was a house filled with love and laughter. Auntie always made room for all her family, no matter when. She was beloved by all, especially her husband.

Toward the end of their lives they moved into the house down the hill my cousin had built in the 1970's. The little log cabin eventually was condemned because it was in a flood zone, and had to be torn down. So many memories in that little tiny home. With its antique stove, and my aunt who could cook up a storm, we didn't go hungry either. Nor cold, it was always warm, including in the dead of winter. In the spring was when her flowers bloomed, she planted and cultivated to her heart's content. She arranged bushels of flowers each Memorial Day for our loved ones buried nearby. She was my favorite aunt on my dad's side.

Do not sell your townhouse or buy a house with someone who is threatening to divorce you. You have been married for 5 years, but your marriage is not stable with divorce threats.

Perhaps renting storage for the stuff that is making this particular room unusable would be a better move. Also, don't encourage her children to move in with you. Consider this room a guest room for guests, people who come to visit and then leave.

What a mess. Perhaps you should get some personal counseling to help you learn to deal with what sounds like serious codependent behavior.

Religious convictions are not exactly the same as codependent behavior.

How did you read that into his statements? She knows her mind, is being assertive. That does not seem codependent to me.

Mormonism is just one of his wife's problems. She is manipulative (it's okay that you aren't Mormon, I'll manipulate you into joining); She plays with emotional blackmail (if you don’t do what I want, I am going to divorce you); half her kids won't talk to her (have to wonder what that is about); she wants to move her kids into the house (are her children homeless? Or does she just want to manipulate and control them too?). I am sure she is always the victim while everyone around her seems to be suffering in one way or another.

I think that there is pathology here that is separate from Mormonism. The OP will benefit from learning why he allows himself to be treated in a manner that he really doesn't want. I also think that he needs an outside perspective on his wife's beahavior. If he better understands where the behavior is coming from, he will be in a better position to respond to the behavior or decide if he really wants to continue to deal with it.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2018 03:00PM by Amyjo.

Here's how I see it:



Joseph Smith got another man's wife.

You men need to start the HENRY JOCOBS SOCIETY.

Make yourself some badges or name plates. Wear that badge around. When someone asks, encourage them to read about poor Henry Jacobs.




(However, I personally would toss a book of mormon on her lap, get in the car and go.)

Greg, I'm not trying to be flippant here, but this is the topic than enrages me the most about mormonism.

How dare these women?

So many men remain in the church because tithing is cheaper than alimony.

I am so sorry that you, and so many men go through this nonsense, and I am so sorry that so many women are that purely ignorant.

I didn't take it as being flippant at all. I am amused by the idea and am even thinking some sort of discrete lapel pin that would serve the same purpose as your badge proposal.

Good grief.
With all those Mormon problems in your marriage do NOT buy a bigger house to accommodate her adult kids. They may show up and never leave.
Your townhouse protects you from invasion.

Introverts don't do well in larger groups.
Don't invite additional problems into your life by including your wife's kids and their potential problems.
Distance is your friend.

That is my thought exactly.

My wife's sister and her husband have a house by a lake, and they have people over all the time. They frequently invite us over, and will sometimes sweeten the pot for me by saying that it will just be the four of us, or maybe even their high school son. But after we've driven an hour to get there, my heart just sinks when I see a driveway full of cars and dozen people through the living room window. They may not have been specifically invited that particular day, but they all have an open invitation to drop by whenever they're in the neighborhood.

My wife says that's how her house to be, and would like to have it be that way again. It would send me over the edge.

Edit to add: As I and my sisters have said, we are at an age where couples are downsizing and moving into apartments and townhouses, and are definitely not moving into homes that require more maintenance than what we currently have with the townhouse. It would be one thing if we were already living in a house with a large yard, but why take on the hassle of additional chores and a larger mortgage if we don't have to?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2018 12:59PM by GregS.

Smart man.

It seems you have enough on your plate without a constant Open House for her kids and their problems.
Plus she'll invite the missionaries as permanent fixtures, you can bank on it.

She thought she could change you after marriage, no doubt. This is another unfortunate Mormon fallacy.

Well, you will have to stand your ground or things will get worse - as they so often do when Mormonism takes root.

Good luck to you.

By the sound of things you are either going to need marriage counseling or divorce counseling. You seem to be headed for a divorce if you cannot work through your differences.

Your wife should have some say on the living arrangements if you stay together.

If you split, then the usual divorce brouhaha will be in order, and division of the marital property.

He can avoid that by staying put in his own townhouse.

If the wife wants something bigger for her adult kids and the usual Mormon throng she should move out get her own place.

Obviously, this husband does not like a lot of commotion around him.
That's how introverts roll and that's his perfect right.

That's right. And what you describe is not a marriage. A union of two partners should have an equal voice in their living arrangement. No man or woman should feel subjugated to living anywhere they don't want to be.

However GregS sounds like they at a minimum have a fighting chance of making it work.

This is not the best place for someone to find marital counseling. It would be best for him to seek out a good counselor who can either help him to save his marriage, or find a good divorce attorney to dissolve it.

It sounds like they are nearing retirement age and he is quite rational in saying he does not want to take on additional work or responsibility.

The wife surely knew this when she married him 5 years ago.
But the problem is that Mormon magical thinking is clouding her brain.

She is lucky to have found a husband who was willing to take on the baggage she brought into the marriage.

He is quite right in standing his ground.
What she decides is up to her.

Five years in the same bachelor pad he had before they married?

Even if they're downsizing, it would be a natural thing for a woman to have some say in their living environ/quarters.

They both went into the marriage with their eyes wide open. A marriage isn't a one-sided agreement. It is a two-way street.

They've compromised very well thus far, sans Mormonism. Greg's marriage has a chance of being saved. I doubt he's going to get the support he needs to do that here on RfM. He needs to be willing to compromise, same as his wife does, if their marriage is going to survive.

You know nothing about their financial means to say his wife can just go out and buy a larger house if they divorce. It would be more likely they'll both have to lower their living standards because they'll be relying on one income rather than two.

I would agree with you if she wasn't threatening divorce. But as long as she keeps issuing ultimatums, I think it's in Greg's best interest to stay where he can afford, but try to make some changes she'd like. Someone before mentioned putting her stuff in storage so that she has a room to use as she likes. Maybe put some of his stuff in storage too, and replace it with stuff she likes.

That's a much better compromise than moving to a different house which would probably be half hers in case of divorce.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2018 04:23PM by Jane Cannary.

This is why i am going to marry a non-mormon, for this exact reason. I don't want to deal with that in any way shape or form. I know how insidious that organization is. I won't risk them ruining my life in another way through a spouse.

That's a good thought, Adam. You must choose carefully, though. I am on my second non-Mormon wife, and we have plenty of problems even without religious differences. As a two time loser, the problem might be mine, but I am her third husband. Perhaps it is just the human condition.

brotherofjared Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's a good thought, Adam. You must choose
> carefully, though. I am on my second non-Mormon
> wife, and we have plenty of problems even without
> religious differences. As a two time loser, the
> problem might be mine, but I am her third husband.
> Perhaps it is just the human condition.

I feel it would complicate things waaay too much with religion moreso than not. I don't need god in my bed and between me and my wife nor a religion in between either.

Mormons notoriously make crazy financial decisions due to their obedience to the cult.

So this husband does not want to play Mormon $ roulette, good for him.

Taking on more work or financial responsibilities for a wife who threatens to leave over Mormonism would be a serious mistake on all levels.

My hubby was not honest about his lack of religious inclination when he married me in the temple.

Still, he had to set some boundaries when I was doing cartwheels trying to create a forever family.

I remember one temper tantrum where he stated very clearly that he was done attending church. He was very clear and I needed that. Basically, he called my bluff.

We have a pretty strict policy about not bringing up divorce as a possible solution to every fight. Using the threat of divorce to win and argument and get one's way is abusive.

We married at 21. I was 42 before I figured things out completely on my own. I think it was very helpful when he was very clear that we weren't going to discuss it and he was never going to be active.

Good luck.

She's playing a game with you, and I would cut her off when she does that. I would tell her that if she wants to go to church, that's fine, but she is a grown adult and she needs to make it happen. There's her wardrobe, there's the door, there are the car keys. Make it her job to get herself there. And stop attending with her. She has shown zero appreciation for your having done so, and in fact has repeatedly harassed you with would-be ward missionaries.

If she wants to know more about your point of view, give her the "Letter to My Wife," or the CES Letter, or something similar. Tell her that is a good place to start, but she needs to do her own studying and come to her own conclusions. Don't let her draw you into an argument about it. Refuse to discuss it any further.

Keep the townhouse. It makes sense for your stage of life. Plus, with her constant divorce threats, this is no time to put your home asset at risk. What I would do is to better integrate your things, clean out the guest bedroom, and have her redecorate it. That is plenty of space to make her family feel welcome without over-running your house with guests.

I would tell her, no more threats of divorce unless she is willing to come to you with papers in hand -- which you will promptly hand over to your own attorney with instructions to make it happen. Don't tolerate her bullying you. Because that's what it is.

Funny you should mention the CES Letter or something like it. Just an hour ago she was asking me more questions about my views of the church. As recommended here, I told her that I'm not going to discuss Mormonism with her, but I could point to a couple of sources for her to read for herself. She said she'd consider it, but it did shut that line of questions from her.

Not having been to a Mormon church for a coon's age, I don't know what goes on there anymore but I've been getting the impression that TSCC is trying different ways to bring back the lost sheep and hold onto the weakening ones. Your wife is probably/maybe getting some real serious pressure to convert you or at least stay firm in her faith by not drifting away. Her drifting away is made easier by you not being a member and she's blaming you. NOT FAIR!! Let her know this. You (nobody) is responsible for her salvation except her. Her church teaches this.

Let her know all the good things you like about Mormonism like strong family values, health code of not smoking or drinking, being honest, etc. (My dad did this with us when we converted and he did not). Remind her that you do not look down on her for believing something you do not believe and all you ask for is the same level of respect from her. She loved and married you as you were and saw that you were a decent person. You haven't changed. Only thing changing seems to be the pressure she's getting from church members or leaders.

Bottom line is that there are no eternal consequences for marrying a non-member. It's not a sin. If she remains Mormon until death and keeps the commandments, she will make it to the eternal top spot and can find another mate then. But she made a binding commitment to you for this life knowing you were not interested in changing religious beliefs. If she thought you'd change then that was her gamble, not yours. She gambled, lost, and can't accept it.

There is a saying, "Poop or get off the pot". She needs to accept she lost the gamble that you would change. She must accept you as you are, were, and will be in the future. If waiting until the next life to find "Mr. Celestial" doesn't meet her needs then she needs to "get off the pot", set you free, and see if she can do better a third time.

I think it finally sunk in this morning that she really does want a divorce, but wants me to be the one to pull the plug. After this morning, I'm almost inclined to oblige her.

Last night she wanted to continue our discussion (I thought it was an argument) about the church. I said I thought it best that we not, but if she was genuinely curious about what I have learned I could point her to a couple of my sources. She said she'd consider it, and we returned to the immediate issue at hand...shopping for a new washer and dryer.

She started out this morning conciliatory and saying how much she hates that we walk past each other without touching. I explained that I'm still a little hurt and angry from our argument on Sunday, but I'm sorting it out and getting a handle on it. She asked what did I have to be angry about, and I told her that it hurts when she has threatened divorce whenever we have fought for the past five years.

She insisted that she said nothing about divorce on Sunday; and I asked what I am to conclude when she says she must choose between me and the church, and that she would choose the church. She said that she didn't want to choose, and I said I'm the only one who's saying she doesn't have to.

She quickly switched to the subject of buying a new house. She propped up some reasons I've stated before for my reluctance, and then she knocked them down. "So, why are you still reluctant," she asked. "Because I don't want to buy a new house with the specter of divorce hanging over our marriage. We are still recovering from the last fight where it was threatened, and I need to believe we are past that before I even consider buying a new house."

She said she understood that and apologized for making me feel that way, and said she doesn't know why she says what she says when she really doesn't mean them. Things calmed down a little, though it really hadn't been heated; then a flip switched.

"Do you think I'm a horrible person because I belong to a cult?" I've never thought she was a horrible person, nor have I ever told her I thought it a cult (though I've been sorely tempted).

"Do you think I would associate with a church full of dishonest men who prey upon young women?" I never said anything of the kind.

"Do you think all of my friends from church are pedophiles?" No, of course not.

And from there it descended directly into mockery and belittlement from her (I'll spare you the details because I really don't even want to think about it) before she stormed off complaining about how late she would be for work.

Look, I'm not really looking for advice, though there has been wisdom in what the rest of you have already posted. I just need to let it out more than anything.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2018 09:37AM by GregS.

It sounds like she's projecting her bad thoughts about the church on to you.

It's not fair and it's not nice, but I keep thinking--oh, I've been there. The more miserable I was at church, the more miserable I was at home.

My testimony was going into death spasms and I was angry and frustrated trying to revive it.

My hubby would have been justified in getting away from me because I was so conflicted and just plain crazy.

Some of that doubling down could be the beginning of the end?

Maybe just me projecting. I wonder if she's trying to avoid the pain of facing the truth about that religion.

If she was happy at church, she'd be doing her thing and not torturing you.

I don't know how much more I can or want to put up with. Since Sunday we've hardly had an extended conversation without her saying something with the intent of causing harm.

Last night she asked whether I had made up my mind yet about whether I was going to leave her. Whether *I* was going to leave *her*? I'm not the one threatening divorce.

I've never lashed out at her the way she did this morning, and she's done it to lesser degrees in previous arguments. Where I've been careful even in heated arguments to consider what impact my words will have, she seems to make the same calculation and say it because of the impact.

I've started researching what I need to do to prepare for a divorce, and from what I've seen I really don't want to do that either.

I'm not a big fan of my life right now.

This woman needs SERIOUS therapy! You've been completely reasonable through this whole process (based on the contents of your story). The problem is that Mormons in general are NEVER taught how to constructively and directly deal with their cognitive dissonance or internal conflicts in a healthy way. They're admonished to pray, pay, and obey the problems away and wait for the magical solution.

She's obviously dealing with some serious envy issues with her sister's living situation and resents that she can't have the big house full of family. I totally get that personally - my current home is in need of SERIOUS remodeling in every room (I've made some great progress but there's still a LOT to do) and I always envy other homes that are more put together... BUT NOT to the point that I'm dragging down someone else about it.

And she sounds like she REALLY is struggling with how to sort her hierarchy of priorities (you, church, etc.). I would suggest finding a counselor (preferably not Mormon - although my therapist was Mormon and he was absolutely fantastic - but that's the exception, not the rule) and trying to work through her obvious issues.

In summary, it really sounds like she is just not happy with many aspects of her life. We all have things in life that we'd like to improve upon and that's normal and healthy. However, if the balance of things that we feel are not right is too great and we don't know how to proceed, we start to feel trapped and angry and resentful. It's a rotten and dangerous place to be from a cognitive standpoint.

Best of luck to you and I hope your wife can find a way to move forward in a healthy way.

"They're admonished to pray, pay, and obey the problems away and wait for the magical solution."

One of the things she said this morning was that, because of my influence on her, she no longer feels worthy to pray for guidance or to even expect a response. So, in addition to my other crimes against God and the church, I have denied her her only path to a solution.

You should remind her that NO ONE can influence her unless she opens herself up to be influenced. That's HER responsibility! She can't push that off on you. Not that I'm in the business of telling people how to do things but, from perusing your comments, it's pretty obvious that she has either NEVER taken personal responsibility for how she feels and/or acts or that it's been so long since she has, she's forgotten how.

She really is acting like a child and you have a right to put your foot down (civilly and professionally and calmly of course) and make sure that every comment or query that comes from her that references something she's obviously in turmoil about is put right back within the purview of her responsibility to figure out.

It's NOT your responsibility to sort out her feelings of disappointment that you never joined the Mormon church. You were clear from the beginning. That's HER responsibility to come to terms with.

It's NOT your responsibility to shoulder the burden of HER "worthiness" or HER spirituality. And there are MANY examples in her scriptures and church history of people in ACTUAL horrific circumstances taking responsibility for their own spirituality and OWNING it.

It's NOT your responsibility to bear the brunt of her disappointment about her living situation. If she wants to have a candid conversation about how she feels, that's HER responsibility.

In short, your wife needs to GROW THE #$@% UP and own her life and her choices.

Toddlers and miscreants and sociopaths are the types to put blame and responsibility onto others. Adults own their stuff and figure out solutions to their problems rather than constantly complaining and bemoaning their imaginary victimization.

Either you had some serious impact on her testimony. (Which isn't your fault because she DID ask.)

Or this is a ruse to show you how whackjob crazy she would be without the church. This is sounding like a last-ditch effort to get you to do what she's wanted all along.

You don't like false accusations? You don't like everything you say being taken out of context? You don't like being gaslighted? Then convert. Because if I don't have the church in my life, this is what you get.

This is the ultimate ultimatum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2018 11:58AM by Jane Cannary.

Oh, man. Have you been listening in on some of our conversations?

Some of that is exactly what she had once warned me of how she would be if she stopped following the covenants. I had told her at the time that regardless of whether she followed the covenants, how she behaved would be totally up to her...that she would still know what is right or wrong.

Dude! You need to put tape over your webcam! ;-)

Covenants? What about your marriage covenants? Is she following those?

This is some serious craziness. I wonder if she doesn’t have borderline personality disorder. Good luck.

>>She said she understood that and apologized for making me feel that way, and said she doesn't know why she says what she says when she really doesn't mean them. Things calmed down a little, though it really hadn't been heated; then a flip switched.

"Do you think I'm a horrible person because I belong to a cult?" I've never thought she was a horrible person, nor have I ever told her I thought it a cult (though I've been sorely tempted).

"Do you think I would associate with a church full of dishonest men who prey upon young women?" I never said anything of the kind.

"Do you think all of my friends from church are pedophiles?" No, of course not.

And from there it descended directly into mockery and belittlement from her...

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Again, my recommendation would be to shut it down when it comes to discussing the church. I would respond, "I'm not going to play that game. If you value your church membership, that is fine. I won't stop you from attending and believing, and I won't belittle your beliefs. You are free to enjoy your beliefs and your religion. But I'm not going to discuss the church any further. The LDS church is your thing, not mine. And I certainly won't tolerate mockery and belittlement from you." Etc.

Had a friend go through a similar ordeal, he was actually a Bishop for awhile. He left the church, she claims doesnt want a divorce but instead a new car. He buys her a car thinking this will settle things down. Nope, she left with the car. You are very smart to not make any big purchases right now.

You have my sympathies. She's not acting like a mature adult. As a matter of fact, she's acting like a wrecking ball. And it sounds like she has trouble with all her relationships.

Sadly, this is the usual pattern with a TBM wife and a non-believing husband.

Once it sinks in that the spouse will not convert there will be hell to pay.
Eventually, the husband will be reduced to being treated like some idiot child.

You may want to see lawyer to get your ducks in a row to protect your assets - just in case.
Hopefully it won't come to the big D but you never know what the cult "inspires" her to do.

The bigger house is a symbol of the Mormon life she really wants -but If you bought a bigger house her kids and her Mormon friends would be zeroing in on you right about now.
Too bad she can't appreciate you as is.

Rather unexpectedly, my SIL has stepped forward to tell my wife to count her blessings and stop trying to sabotage our marriage. I don't know what my wife told her sister, but it was enough for the sister to see what was happening.

I can totally see why some of her children don't have a relationship with her from what you have written. She's trying to force your hand so she will be blameless of instigating a divorce, quitting her church attendance, not taking any responsibility for the direction her life is taking. What I don't know is how someone (you) can put up with that. It doesn't sound like any notion I have of a marriage, but I do realize there are people out there who thrive on drama/abuse. To each their own. Sounds like you have to figure out what you are willing to put up with.

I don't have any right to diagnose personality disorders but a lot of what you've said about your wife sounds disordered. Really. She especially likes to assign her warped perceptions and fears onto you which is seriously maladapted behavior.

You probably won't get her to a therapist but you should find a mental health professional and tell them the things your wife has been saying. Then get some advice on how to proceed. If she cannot see that she has some deep seated issues to deal with, you may have no choice but to consider divorce before one or both of you becomes seriously depressed or even hurt physically or financially. What's going on in her head seems to possibly have more to it than just brainwashing from TSCC.