Has anyone here ever re-engaged the church after resigning? I resigned from the church roughly twenty-five years ago. I don't want to be any part of the ward where I live (or anywhere for that matter). I have no desire to go back to church or to any church activities. I definitely don't want to join again. But there is this burning anger inside of me that I don't think will ever go away until several people in specific, including several church leaders, apologize to me for some terrible wrong-doings that they've done to me, or until I go public with my story, whichever comes first. I refuse to accept injustice and a belief that certain injustices are acceptable because the church sanctions them. I just want reconsiliation that leads to indifference.

As things are now, I consider myself to be an enemy of the church, but an honest (and law-abiding) enemy. Any opportunity I get to discredit or do harm to the church, I'me there. I don't think that should ever change until the church takes responsibility for some really bad things they've done to harm my life, and apologizes to me, and is willing to explain what they're doing to prevent them from doing the same to others. If some other church members who were involved in the events that led to my resignation won't apologize to me, those people should be excommunicated and told that they won't be allowed back in to the church, until they apologize for some pretty serious wrong-doing they've done to me. From the church leaders who were involved (one of which took part in a crime against me), I want to see that apology in writing on church letterhead. Now I understand that the church doesn't issue apologies. At the same time, between now and when I die, I am pretty sure that I can inflict much more damages on the church than what they did to me (and I plan to). The problem is that I really am a nice person. I don't like having enemies or being anyone else's enemy. But the church has made its choice and needs to be held accountable, just as Scientology is starting to be held accountable through bad press, and even through a weekly TV show now that exposes that church and its wrong-doings. All I know for sure is that when I want something badly enough, I can usually find a way to make it happen. I anticipate seeing a non-LDS councelor just to see what does and does not shock them about the church's role in my experiences first, before starting to write under my real name and seeking media attention. I've got leads on two large media outlets already (based on alignment of interests), but haven't contacted either of them yet.

If you contact local church leaders, you end up on their list of people they want to friendship. I don't want to be on that list. If I contact the church headquarters and only give them my PO box address, they'll probably find where I live through public records and put me on a local friendshipping list. If I contact them with any threats to let them know not to contact me for friendshipping purposes, they'll just add me to a list of apostates. I don't mind being on their list of apostates. But that doesn't further any constructive dialogue toward the purpose of my contacting them. I am starting to feel more and more obligated to go public with my story, each time I reconsider the fact that the church doesn't make apologies and can't be held accountable by anyone. Before I do go public with my story, and I am pretty sure it's going to cause them some level of pain if I do, I should give them my best shot at giving them an opportunity to discuss the issues honestly with me in private first. Are they a godless cult that will harm anyone to get what they want and is incapable of feeling remourse, or a failable human organization that is capable of contrition for the wrong-doings of their leaders? I would like to find that out. Either way, the mormon church is certainly not the only true church. I doubt they'll ever earn their way back on to my list of valid religions. But I would like to stop hating them. I feel like by not publicly discussing my past interactions with them, I'm covering for their mis-deeds, and am doing harm by not warning others about them.

Anyone have any ideas how to bring the church leaders to the table? They've made some big mistakes. I doubt they can be sued, considering the length of time that has passed. If they can't be compelled to take responsibility, then they need to pay some price for their bad actions in my life. I served a fulltime mission for the mormon church in Salt Lake City Utah. I understand mormon politics better than some people. It'll be a mistake on their part if they dismiss my claims as just anti-mormonism and think that's the end of it. The biggest challenge is getting them past their own narcissism, and to taking responsibility for their own actions. They would rather lose hundreds of thousands of members than to do that. I know how to hit the church hard where it hurts most, although I would rather not start with that first. Any ideas about how to initiate a healthy dialogue with the church would be very much appreciated.

You’ve probably taken the biggest step already, and that’s writing it all down. You needed to say it, and it’s been said. There doesn’t need to be a point beyond that.

The church is only strengthened by enemies. You prick them with a pin and it’s like you ran them through. Congratulations, now they’re galvanized. I like to think of myself as an enema to the church, slowly flushing out their shit. It’s a stinky job.

Yeah, they sure fucked me funny. Maybe I can return the favor, but it’s not my mission in life. Humanity has bigger problems than silly cults past their sell-by date. For example, much of the world is still reeling from a cult of game theory with its origins in John Nash’s bout with paranoid schizophrenia. Yup, still plenty of crazy to go around. Not even President Nelson has nukes.

How does one ‘hit the church hard where it hurts the most’?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2018 04:58PM by carameldreams.

How do you hit the church where it hurts the most? Prove what a cult the church is to the world while going after their money. The idea isn't to get any of their money for yourself. It's to convince others to not give the church even one penny for any reason. Starve them out. Create and grow a culture where giving any money to the church is seen as immoral, because the church does bad things with its money and influence and does not disclose how they spend their money, to anyone. Create a culture where being a church leader is shameful and expose church influences in every aspect where it exists outside of their own church buildings.

To do that (next paragraph)

Expose the whole testimony/lie process and expose it for the cult programming that it is. Little children are taught to say the testimony lie from the moment they can first speak. Let everyone know that "I don't like being lied to". So what is a testimony? Really? Do they really "know"? The answer is no, they don't. When trapped on the topic they say "oh, you're talking about a sure knowledge. No one has that". They didn't think to tell the non-member that detail (another lie), when they looked them in the eyes and bore their testimony-lie to them. If you want to tell your husband or wife you love them every day that's great. That is a part of how love grows. But no matter how many times you tell a lie about the truth, it always remains a lie. You can't create your own truth in spite of reality, about something that is fundamentally false from the start. The first thing you want to get good at is calling people on their mormon-testimony lies. It's all a bunch of programming crap and everyone will see it for what it is if you just point it out correctly and don't let them off the hook for that lie.

These are the first two steps. Get good at these and don't ever debate theology with them. If they want to discuss the details, discuss church history, easy-to-prove docterines, and church policies as recorded from objective sourses and even sometimes from within books written by church leaders. Just avoid theology. Point out the lies and the secracy of the church and how people were hurt because of those lies, at every opportunity.

I have done these within my own family and circle of close friends. It works. I can shread almost any testiminy pretty quickly. It isn't always pretty. It can be like tearing off a bandage before the wound underneath has healed. People become insecure, and can even revert to their pre-mormon self (whether a drunk or a criminal or something else).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2018 07:15PM by azsteve.

It's really time now for the whole mormon empire to come crashing down. The mormon church is one scientology/Leah Remy-type television show away from the start of total ruin. Maybe it'll start from someone spilling the beans on a talk show. Before it happens, I just want to have a discussion with them, similar to the discussion that Neo had with the Architect in the Matrix, and to ask them what the hell they thought they were doing when they started lieing and threatening to cut people's throats open. The local leaders that I dealt with are also going to be publicly exposed by name if they don't apologize to me for what they did to me as an individual.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The local leaders that
> I dealt with are also going to be publicly exposed
> by name if they don't apologize to me for what
> they did to me as an individual.

Love it!

It's the Godfather meets Heavenly Father!

Thank you very much, azsteve. I really appreciate you replying at length and detailing examples in your reply. I hear you have spent many an hour thinking hard about this. I hope you are rewarded for your sincere efforts.

I guess I still have some questions, based on your OP? Please do not feel obligated to answer all my questions.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> But there is this burning anger
> inside of me that I don't think will ever go away
> until several people in specific, including
> several church leaders, apologize to me for some
> terrible wrong-doings that they've done to me, or
> until I go public with my story, whichever comes
> first.

I'm glad you have an 'or' in what you can live with! When analyzing the church's history, do you feel it is likely that 'several church leaders, apologize'? If so, go with that! If not, you have the option to 'go public'. It's your choice.


> If some other church members who were
> involved in the events that led to my resignation
> won't apologize to me, those people should be
> excommunicated and told that they won't be allowed
> back in to the church, until they apologize for
> some pretty serious wrong-doing they've done to
> me. From the church leaders who were involved (one
> of which took part in a crime against me), I want
> to see that apology in writing on church
> letterhead. Now I understand that the church
> doesn't issue apologies. At the same time, between
> now and when I die, I am pretty sure that I can
> inflict much more damages on the church than what
> they did to me (and I plan to).

How exciting! Please keep us posted! Sounds like you are just the man to bring the church to its knees.

> Are they a godless cult that will harm anyone to get what
> they want and is incapable of feeling remourse, or
> a failable human organization that is capable of
> contrition for the wrong-doings of their leaders?
> I would like to find that out.

Sounds like a great endeavor to 'find that out'! I do have some concerns, I guess, that you want to inflict major pain on the church but you also may not know if they are a 'failable human organization' and thereby, violate your 'nice person' image?

> Either way, the mormon church is certainly not the only true
> church. I doubt they'll ever earn their way back
> on to my list of valid religions. But I would like
> to stop hating them.

That's the nice person you are! You want to stop hating them. Do you think they might be upset if you expose them publically as 'certainly not the only true church'? They might be hurt by you. Oh, wait, that's what you want!

I'm hearing you don't want to hate the persons you want to hurt. You want to be 'nice' but bring major pain to those you don't want to hate?

> Anyone have any ideas how to bring the church
> leaders to the table?

Is this to get the written apology from certain church leaders on LDS letterhead? Or ?

> If they can't be compelled to take responsibility, then they
> need to pay some price for their bad actions in my
> life.

Again, so exciting! I've been watching some shows on the American and Irish mafia and they are so good at getting those they want to 'pay some price for their bad actions.' Your enthusiasm, if not outright zeal reminds me of them.

> I know how to hit the church hard where it hurts
> most, although I would rather not start with that
> first. Any ideas about how to initiate a healthy
> dialogue with the church would be very much
> appreciated.

You know what they say: no pain, no gain! Sounds like you know how to hit 'em hard and hurt them good, azsteve! I love your aspiration to start with a soft send up and then hit the church with your best shot! Not first. That wouldn't be 'nice'. And you don't want to hate them. Just hurt them. There is a difference! The church should suffer for what they did to you and it is their fault.

Hurt without hate is the healthiest dialogue! It's for their own good, right? They'll be beggin' for more.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2018 07:41PM by carameldreams.

Thanks Carameldreams, I'll probably either write a letter to an are or regional rep in Salt Lake, or may give it a shot with the local Bishop. I hope they realize when I show up on their radar that they better not start sending anyone to my house. I would rather meet them in local church office or I wouldn't mind flying to Salt Lake to meet them in their offices there. But regardless of how it goes, I am pretty sure they're not going to acknowledge the church's wrong-doing or the wrong-doing of the individuals from that time, no matter how nice I am to them. If they do, they'll quickly then jump right to that forgiveness and jesus crap and then get angry and un-cooperative when I don't buy it and still have expectations of them to track down the appropriate people for the apologies that I expect of them. I'll give them a fair shot and go to war with them after they let me down again.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I have done these within my own family and circle
> of close friends. It works. I can shread almost
> any testiminy pretty quickly.

I think you've got what it takes, azsteve. I'm not sure most of us here at Rfm could do what you do. I know I couldn't!

I think the key question to yourself, even though you asked here, is what do *you* think can be done to get these leaders to the table?

What has worked within your own family and circle of close friends?

I mean, we are talking about the church here. They are likely to take any bait you put out there.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People become insecure, and can even revert to their pre-
> mormon self (whether a drunk or a criminal or something
> else).

Exactly.

It's difficult to give you advice without knowing the pertinent details. But what I would do is discuss your options with a lawyer. Even if you are not able to sue the church, your lawyer can likely discuss other options with you. Failing that, I would discuss the details in private with some fellow exmos to get some feedback. There are periodic exmo gatherings in Utah and elsewhere that are listed here and on other exmo boards. Or give a shout-out of your approximate location and people will reach out to you.

I will say that sometimes the best option when confronted with evil, immoral people is simply walking away.

I think that you have to take the position "I just don't give a shit". Then proceed to ignore them. So long as you continue to acknowledge a bully or an abuser they will continue to bully and abuse you.

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So long as you continue to acknowledge a bully or
> an abuser they will continue to bully and abuse
> you.

But then who will play Villain? That's no fun.

Every hero needs a villain. Comics understand this.

Carry on, azsteve!

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> I doubt they can be sued, considering
> the length of time that has passed.

Could be but depends on what you would sue for. Have you consulted tort law or precedents? Were you sexually assaulted or hired to do a job for the church and they were negligent in supervision or did not pay you wages due?

How about defamation? Outrageous conduct (as defined by tort law)? Invasion of privacy?

I suggest starting a class action suit against the church instead of going it alone. Get the ball rolling, assuage your burning anger and feel satisfied you are causing some major pain.

No hate required.

Hi AZSteve, I feel your frustration and anger on a daily basis. In my case, the bastards who hurt me the most (when I was a young wanker) are now dead. In my current situation, my ward leaders never troubled me much because they were somewhat afraid of me—I never got angry with them, I just pointed out sone common sense logic about the church.

When they came around, I proceeded to inform them that I couldn’t believe in a physical, judgmental god who lived on a planet near Kolob, and that the Book of Mormon was nothing more than a 19th Century Romance bound to the context of its time. I also informed them that if they tried to hold a court, not only who I beat them to the punch by resigning, but I would do it in a very vocal way.

So, the leaders left me alone. Currently, there are a couple of my neighbors I’ve tried to form friendships with. No dice on their part. Their loss, I’m a pretty decent guy.

I’ve read your posts and know, somewhat, of the brutality that you've experienced due to your local leaders’ fuckups. If I thought in any way, you’d benefit from talking with them, or it would help you heal, I’d recommend you contact them. But, sadly, I can’t imagine that happening.

From the top down (Dallin Oaks) the church has said it won’t apologize. That has set the pattern.

My best advice would be to simply let non-Mo folks know what the church is all about in a non-angry way. For example, a woman recently told me she went to a temple open house. I asked her what she thought of the temple (it was pretty, but weird). I then explained that I used to be LDS and could answer questions she had.

And boy did she have a lot of questions! We started talking about characterictics of a cult. I then related it, non-confrontationally to Mormonism. We talked and laughed for about 20 minutes. Then, I directed her to the internet to find both LDS and non-LDS info about Mormonism.

So there you have it—the Morg’s greatest worry—a missionary army of EXMOs telling the truth about Mormonism and directng interested parties to the internet.

I hope this helps, AZSteve. Big bro-hugs! The Boner

I liked this, BYUB, "My best advice would be to simply let non-Mo folks know what the church is all about in a non-angry way. For example, a woman recently told me she went to a temple open house. I asked her what she thought of the temple (it was pretty, but weird). I then explained that I used to be LDS and could answer questions she had.

And boy did she have a lot of questions! We started talking about characteristics of a cult. I then related it, non-confrontationally to Mormonism. We talked and laughed for about 20 minutes. Then, I directed her to the internet to find both LDS and non-LDS info about Mormonism.

So there you have it—the Morg’s greatest worry—a missionary army of EXMOs telling the truth about Mormonism and directng interested parties to the internet."

In the last few years, during conversations and at a natural time, I mention that I was brought up in a cult and that is why I think about this or that like I do. If the conversation goes further, fine, if not, also fine. A bit embarrassing for me to admit I was raised in a cult at first, but I got over it.

Thanks Boner, I think your perceptions are accurate. I haven't quite figured out the anger thing yet. One would think that more than twenty-five years later, that the anger from the betrayal should subside, at least some. It's just as strong now as it was then. I have got better at managing it. I have to set time aside each week to go through it or I have anger episodes during other times of the week that are difficult to manage. Thank god I abhore violence. All of the anger goes inward, and I just suffer it in self-isolation, and depression. I've even figured out how to keep it from burdening my sweetheart (the love of my life). I have told her what it is about but I keep the anger from her and tell her I need to be alone for a while when I feel it coming on. There must be a lesson in this that I am just not getting. I am usually pretty good at being honest with myself, more-so than a lot of people I know. One night I had a dream that the whole thing was my fault. I was so relieved in the dream because I could just apologize to everyone, and do what I could do to make things up to everyone. Then I woke up and realized that the temporary relief was only in the dream and that I had been beterayed by everyone I had trusted, and that nothing had changed. Up until age 28 when this happened, I never had anything like this. Quite the opposite, nothing ever bothered me much then and I had a real love of people in general then. Now, it's like I carry this burden around all the time. I can even forgive some of the people in a way. There must be a lesson or a reason in this somewhere. But when people say that Jesus wants you to forgive, that just pisses me off even more. Something in this world that we all share is broken. It all points to the church.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All of the
> anger goes inward, and I just suffer it in
> self-isolation, and depression. I've even figured
> out how to keep it from burdening my sweetheart
> (the love of my life). I have told her what it is
> about but I keep the anger from her and tell her I
> need to be alone for a while when I feel it coming
> on.

Steve, I found a mental health clinic associated with a hospital in my area. A good counselor can help you with this.



> One night I had a dream that the
> whole thing was my fault. I was so relieved in the
> dream because I could just apologize to everyone,
> and do what I could do to make things up to
> everyone. Then I woke up and realized that the
> temporary relief was only in the dream and that I
> had been beterayed by everyone I had trusted, and
> that nothing had changed.

I’m by no means an expert, but this sounds like you have unresolved issues related to shame—as opposed to guilt. Guilt is, “I did something bad.” Shame is, “I am bad.” Shame breeds depression.

Steve, I, too, constantly fight depression and loneliness. Generally, when I feel them coming on, it’s due to my own tendency to shame myself to reinforce my feeling of self-loathing (some of which was fostered by the Morg). Shaming oneself is pretty fucked up, and counseling enabled me to see that.

I can’t say I’ve forgiven the Morg, but I’ve forgiven MYSELF for constantly beating myself up for not being perfect.

Bro-hugs and a hearty “fuck the Morg,” Steve!

I'm sure, Boner, that you are a "decent guy." Think, however, of all those kittens.

:(

the idea of "hitting them where it hurts, convincing members that it is immoral to tithe?"

One trouble with this is that the church's main income is from their investments not tithing, The wealth of this corporation is staggering, really it's a financial pillar of America and Wal-Street. They own portions of most of the Blue Chip stocks on the new york Stock exchange.

It's especially troubling when Nasdaq stocks like Amazon have tripled in the last decade. And Facebook has gone astronomical in the last few years. This is what the church actually is, a series of capital investments all managed by different names such as (Deseret Trust) There are so many different corporations within the corporation all meant to confuse snoopers like us... Billionaires a billion times over.

I learned all this reading Michael Quinns new book, Wealth and corporate power.

anono this week Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One trouble with this is that the church's main
> income is from their investments not tithing,

So true. From a few days ago:

Attentive members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will note the traditional statistical and financial reports of the church are no longer reported in General Conference.

While those reports have stopped, the church has not stopped applying its own financial advice as given to members including paying tithing, being self-reliant, and living providently.

Bishop Gerald Causse spoke at the 2018 Church History Symposium on March 1-2. His speech was entitled, “Financing Faith: The Intersection of Business and Religion.”

On Tuesday, he added more clarification and information to that speech.

“We are not a financial institution or a commercial corporation. We are the Church of Jesus Christ, and this Church has no other objective than that which the Lord Himself assigned to it; namely, to invite all to ‘come unto Christ, and be perfected in him,’” Causse said.

Causse noted that by following sound financial principles over an extended period of time, the church has grown from meager beginnings into a worldwide organization able to support its mission."

https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/faith/lds-church-presiding-bishop-addresses-explains-intricacies-of-church-finances/article_8a896c9e-a5a7-55fd-858d-a938443c959d.html

“The Church and its affiliated entities pay taxes and other governmental levies as required by the laws of each country in which the church functions,” Causse said. “In the United States, where churches and other nonprofit organizations are generally exempt from federal and state income tax, the Church pays taxes on any income it derives from revenue-producing activities that are regularly carried on and are not substantially related to its tax-exempt purposes.”

Causse explained that church-affiliated entities that are organized as for-profit corporations pay regular federal and state corporate income taxes on their net income.

The church and its affiliated entities also pay property taxes on property that is not used for religious, educational, or charitable purposes, including taxes on undeveloped land and properties held for investment or commercial purposes. Government fees, levies and assessments are paid in connection with the development of church property.

“The Church also pays federal and state employer taxes and withholds and remits employee payroll taxes. Where applicable, the church and its affiliated entities pay state and local sales and use taxes,” Causse said.

Some people occasionally describe the church as a powerful and prosperous institution. This may be true, but the strength of the church cannot be measured merely by the number or beauty of its buildings or by its financial and real estate holdings, Causse noted.

“The key to understanding the Church is to see it not as a worldwide corporation, but as millions of faithful members in thousands of congregations across the world following Christ and caring for each other and their neighbors,” Causse said.

anon this week, you bring up good points. I don't think there would be good affects by damaging real businesses that are owned by the church. If there are real customers of non-religious products and services, then those businesses are legitimate, whether or not the church's business interest in them is un-ethical and illegitimately obtained.

On the other hand, a North Korea style starvation of cash to the religious part of the cult could do wonders. Look at the bad will and bad press the church got by letting most of their janitors go and getting the members to do that work (cleaning toilets for Jesus? Or for the corporation?). The church is all about positive cash flow for the church. They may be capable of subsidizing things temporarily from their other businesses. But they won't do it permanently when the tithing (for example) has come to a trickle and it's clear that it's not coming back the way things are being done now. If the membership demands it, the church will publish detailed financial statements. With those publications will come unfortold scruteny and legitimate criticism about obscene business deals and payments to General Authorities. The church will have to clean up their act or go broke. The business-end will also start to dry up. For example, 'social enterprise' money can only be 49% of their income as a charity. When you cut the tithing by 90%, they lose 90% of their revenues from social enterprise businesses also. For example, if Deseret Industries is tax free income for the church (charities often earn income from thrift stores they own), most of the business revenue from DI could suddenly become taxable.

To hit the church hard where it hurts most, the public needs to decide for themselves that the charity does not deserve to receive their cash donations. If the charity is found to have taken part in immoral activities or actions, the donations will dry-up. So all a person has to do to cause that to happen is to reveal to the public, immoral things that the church has done (only the truth). If the membership is influenced by brainwashing and group-think, then the world-at-large can decide. As a church member how would you feel if someone at work asked you (with a snicker) "hey, you don't really condone those throat-slashing threats that your church used to do in their temples, do you?". Too much humiliation like that and people will stop going to church and will stop paying tithing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2018 10:44AM by azsteve.

I wish you luck, azsteve. I can only imagine what the Mormons did to you.

Much of the abuse I suffered was because I'm female. Also, because I was nice. I was raised to love others, and to trust Mormons, as though they were my own family. Mormons were always telling me how much they loved me. I won't go into detail of how I was abused. The assaults and thefts came from TBM family members, and Mormon strangers.

At BYU I was assaulted by my roommates fiancee, at the mailboxes in Cannon Center. He was trying to rape me, and had broken my arm. A group of BYU football players heard my screams, and they came and carried the guy away. He was never seen or heard from again. My roommate wondered what had become of him--but he had disappeared before. I changed roommates. I knew BYU and the campus security would have done nothing to help me, and would have gotten the football players into trouble, so I kept quiet.

I had to study my way out of these situations. The root problem was the Mormon attitude that when a woman is assaulted and raped, it is her fault. Unfortunately, "The Miracle of Forgiveness" was the book I was told to read. It's the only book I ever burned. I had to be satisfied with that, because I couldn't sue the author, or get it out of publication. All I did was warn everyone NOT to read it. It makes me happy that others here on RFM hate the book, also.

My older brother beat and tortured me, my whole life. My parents told me that they couldn't help me control my brother, so I was on my own. They told me to be "the peace-maker." All I could do was run, and climb up a tree or jump over a fence, to get away from him. When I got older, I learned how to kick. When I got my driver's license, I was never home. When I graduated from high school, I moved out, forever. Sometimes, the only thing you can do is run away. My children and I and a few other relatives have no contact with him.

My temple husband beat me, and each time he would cry and apologize. I went to the BYU library and studied about wife-beaters and sociopaths. With the knowledge, that these people never change, I divorced him, temple and all. He was a completely phony con-man, who had married me for my money. I made sure the divorce and the witnesses' testimonies to the physical abuse were on public record--but that was all I could do to warn others. No one could stop him, and he moved across the country, and married at least 2 other women, and had children, and he beat them all.

My TBM bishopric nephew stole many thousands of dollars from me and my other brother. I solved that problem by suing him, and getting my money back. I warned everybody in our family about him, but the nephew said I was lying. The nephew also has never stopped, and has stolen money from my uncle and my brother (when he was dying of cancer.) You can't stop ALL of it, is what I'm saying. I have learned to be satisfied that my children and I are no longer being harmed by the Mormon cult, or by my Mormon bully brother, or by my Mormon nephew.

You're right--"The Mormon church never apologizes." You can quote its GA's on that. I took each one of the crimes against me, and each criminal, and handled them individually.

Shit happens! Psychopaths are born every day. Psychopathic religions keep making money off of innocent people, by using lies, false promises, threats, and fear. They blaspheme against God. Religion prompts people to kill each other.

I feel your angst! I still have anger, too, but I had to let go of the notion that I could do something to STOP this. As long as there are suckers (like me) who easily become prey, there will be predators. It's nature.

You need to go ahead and take action, anyway! Do this for your SELF, and to demonstrate your principles to your family, as an example to them, and for whatever reasons you have.

Often evil does prevail against good, but at least you can say:

"I tried!"

You have already succeeded, IMO, because you have already been instrumental in saving some of your friends and loved ones from an evil cult! If you have rescued even one person, you are a hero!

The members and leadership, especially, are a mix...some who believe but won't change regardless of the evidence...and those who are manipulators and just don't care if it's "true" or not. Either way, difficult to have have a reasonable conversation with either.

I've had recent conversations via social media with a niece and cousin, initiated by me to call them on the holiness of their postings. Some recent how-the-church-loves-the-GLBT-community stuff. No, they don't love the GLBT, but glad you think so.

Angered them. One even noted how they thought I was in a mid-life crisis (divorced my TBM and a few years later married my hot, younger latina wife. Not said, but implied with the "crisis" reference.) I wasn't defensive. I know why I made my decisions and am happy. But them? No, they are defensive and angry that their beliefs are challenged. Says a lot.

The point is that yes you should challenge their positive spins on things. Like Boner says. But it's unlikely to make them see the light. It will give them a rare contrary perspective, and in some cases start them to question their cult, but don't get too optimistic about the outcome. They call it a cult for a reason, because they have been brainwashed.

(One of my relatives asked me, "So, after 40 years in the church you finally found the truth? Were you brainwashed?" Ha ha. My response was that, yes, I was brainwashed, and didn't have the resource of the internet that exists now to understand the truth that was hidden from me and everyone else. It is like they can see the idea of "brainwashed" but it somehow doesn't apply to them.)

I think you would find very little sympathy if you tried to ask for an apology from the church. The church loves it when they have enemies. It just strengthens their testimony that they are a persecuted people because they're the one true church.

I have never had an interest in bringing the church down. I only want them to leave me alone. I still have friends here on this forum that I like to hang out with, because we all have our past experiences in common and understand each other on that level. But I seldom give the church itself any thought anymore.

But in my opinion, the way to hurt them most would be to educate the public on what they're really like. If it saves even one person from being baptized into the corporation, then it's worth it.

There's always the danger that it could push others into the organization if they believe church members who say, "See the persecution? It happens all the time. Lies, all lies!"

But if more and more people spoke out, then it could make a difference. If one is going to join, then they can at least be made aware of what they're potentially getting into.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2018 10:47AM by Greyfort.

The church only likes enemies that don't know how to fight back effectively. They like enemies that debate religion and religiius philosophies. They like having enemies that tell lies against them that are later dis-proven. They like enemies that display anger towards them. What they don't like or benefit from are enemies who know who they really are, who suffer in silence and then tell their true accounts in their own life stories that can be verified, and who are known by everyone who knows that person. Truthfully, the church doesn't like having anyone who has served a mission for them, telling their secrets to the world. They don't like it when their former members pull their own friends and family members out of the church. I am sure the church would rather see Steve Benson keep his mouth (and sometimes his artists pen) shut.

I can use myself as an example. After seeing most of my family and many friends either leave the church or go inactive, I am now starting to contemplate how to disempower the organization as a whole. I served my mission in Salt Lake City. I dealt with many anti-mormons. I know what works and what does not work. I don't waste any energy on doing things that don't work. I don't have a religious agenda. I know what to expect from church members and from church leaders in any discussions with them, and how to head-off any advantage they could obtain, long before the discussion starts. I know how to expose the church for the cult that it is. I can recall a classmate in college bareing his testimony to the whole class and everyone being transfixed by what I call 'that carnival act' (one I could still mimic now if I wanted to, and wouod still get the same crowd admiring results, followed by people asking me questions about the church, yuck). Afterward, I gave a presentation that left him wondering what happened and left the whole class laughing about the very things he had just given his testimony about. I did it in a way where I didn't even have to reveal myself as a former church member. I went after his testimony, not him and not the church. It wasn't personal. The church really, really doesn't want enemies like this. I am just getting started. I don't really see this as a life mission either. At each step, it just seems like the right thing to do next.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2018 11:28AM by azsteve.

azsteve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has anyone here ever re-engaged the church after
> resigning?

In my case: it is a qualified No, Because I never resigned. In my mind, resigning is an acknowledgment of their (LD$ Inc) power and authority, because when I baptized people for LD$ inc on my fool time, we were NEVER instructed by LDS inc to tell those people to be sure to hustle over to their local diocese to resign from THE (catholic) church. By LD$ inc design, THE (Catholic) church was left completely in the dark to try to figure out what had happened to their ( former) church member. That is how THE (MORmON) church sees fit to treat (the other) THE (catholic) Church. So, I figure that it is apt treatment for LD$ inc.

That said, I understand why some one would want to resign from the MORmON cult, as an immediate act of defiance, but for me, I decided to NOT resign as my act of defiance, because NOT resigning is more attractive to me as my act of personal defiance toward them.

That said, I re engage MORmONS and their stupid MORmON cult religion ALL the time. in the way that I choose to, which is on my video sharing accounts, where I intentionally mock the MORmON religion to scorn every chance that I can. Some people disagree with that approach. They say that it is best to love people out of the MORmON religion. That Mocking them will not work to get people out the MORmON religion. I say that anyone who can be loved out of MORmONISM can be loved right back in, so MORmONISM can have those people. Those are people who are Not paying attention to what is really going on because for anyone paying attention the MORmON church is caught LYING all the time. It is not my job or intent to get people in or out THE (MORmON) church. That is up to the individual. It is my job and my intent to make sure that MORmONISM is ALWAYS associated with idiocy and deceit and treachery.

> I resigned from the church roughly
> twenty-five years ago.

This is curious to me, because Just like being baptized, I remember the very day when I quit the MORmON church, so I definitely know the year and the month.

I remember very well the month and the year. In Sept of this year, It will be 20 years since I departed from the MORmON cult, however informally but very effectively for me any way.


> I don't want to be any part
> of the ward where I live (or anywhere for that
> matter).

OK

> I have no desire to go back to church or
> to any church activities.

OK

> I definitely don't want
> to join again.

OK


> But there is this burning anger
> inside of me

OK.

Lots of people will condemn anger, I do not. I say that you may be completely entitled to your feelings, even anger. I really dislike pretentious lectures on how anger must be done away with because it only hurts the person who is angry. I get (More) angry when such pretentious people like to tell me that anger is always a waste of time and energy.


> that I don't think will ever go away
> until several people in specific, including
> several church leaders, apologize to me for some
> terrible wrong-doings that they've done to me,


Here is where you need a dose of reality. Here it is. MORmONS are NOT going to apologize to you for whatever they have done to you, No matter how wrong it was and how much you might really deserve it, because MORmONS are consummate asses. Waiting for an apology from MORmONS is a huge waste of time.


> or
> until I go public with my story, whichever comes
> first.

There you go. There is an option that you can actually exercise.

> I refuse to accept injustice and a belief
> that certain injustices are acceptable because the
> church sanctions them.

OK

> I just want reconsiliation
> that leads to indifference.

you will NEVER get reconciliation from LD$ Inc. NEVER. and who would even want it. They are NEVER going to stop being predatory asses, even as they insist that they are not predatory asses. Would you want an apology from a rattlesnake that had bitten you ? Would you believe that rattlesnake IF it promised to never bite you again????

The only reconciliation over MORmONISM that you are going to get is with yourself. It will be when YOU decide that you are satisfied, that YOU no longer feel the need to act against
MORmONISM, and that day will probably NEVER come, especially since as long as MORmONISM exists it is going to act in the same toxic predatory manner which justifies your ongoing feelings against MORmONISM.

> As things are now, I consider myself to be an
> enemy of the church, but an honest (and
> law-abiding) enemy.

OK

> Any opportunity I get to
> discredit or do harm to the church, I'me there.


OK

> I
> don't think that should ever change until the
> church takes responsibility for some really bad
> things they've done to harm my life, and
> apologizes to me, and is willing to explain what
> they're doing to prevent them from doing the same
> to others.

> If some other church members who were
> involved in the events that led to my resignation
> won't apologize to me, those people should be
> excommunicated and told that they won't be allowed
> back in to the church, until they apologize for
> some pretty serious wrong-doing they've done to
> me. From the church leaders who were involved (one
> of which took part in a crime against me), I want
> to see that apology in writing on church
> letterhead. Now I understand that the church
> doesn't issue apologies.

and here you are hoping for something that AINT going to happen

> At the same time, between
> now and when I die, I am pretty sure that I can
> inflict much more damages on the church than what
> they did to me (and I plan to).

OK


> The problem is
> that I really am a nice person. I don't like
> having enemies or being anyone else's enemy. But
> the church has made its choice and needs to be
> held accountable, just as Scientology is starting
> to be held accountable through bad press, and even
> through a weekly TV show now that exposes that
> church and its wrong-doings. All I know for sure
> is that when I want something badly enough, I can
> usually find a way to make it happen. I anticipate
> seeing a non-LDS councelor just to see what does
> and does not shock them about the church's role in
> my experiences first, before starting to write
> under my real name and seeking media attention.
> I've got leads on two large media outlets already
> (based on alignment of interests), but haven't
> contacted either of them yet.
>
> If you contact local church leaders, you end up on
> their list of people they want to friendship. I
> don't want to be on that list. If I contact the
> church headquarters and only give them my PO box
> address, they'll probably find where I live
> through public records and put me on a local
> friendshipping list. If I contact them with any
> threats to let them know not to contact me for
> friendshipping purposes, they'll just add me to a
> list of apostates. I don't mind being on their
> list of apostates. But that doesn't further any
> constructive dialogue toward the purpose of my
> contacting them. I am starting to feel more and
> more obligated to go public with my story, each
> time I reconsider the fact that the church doesn't
> make apologies and can't be held accountable by
> anyone. Before I do go public with my story, and I
> am pretty sure it's going to cause them some level
> of pain if I do,


> I should give them my best shot
> at giving them an opportunity to discuss the
> issues honestly with me in private first.

You can do that for your own benefit, but you have already discussed how utterly futile that is likely to be

> Are they
> a godless cult that will harm anyone to get what
> they want and is incapable of feeling remorse, or
> a failable

(fallible)

> human organization that is capable of
> contrition for the wrong-doings of their leaders?
> I would like to find that out. Either way, the
> mormon church is certainly not the only true
> church.


you are way too busy trying to imbue benevolent attributes to LD$ Inc that they simply do NOT have and are NOT
capable of having

> I doubt they'll ever earn their way back
> on to my list of valid religions.

HOW would that even be possible ???

> But I would like
> to stop hating them.

your anger (hate) serves a purpose. it keeps you vigilant. it is insurance that you will not allow yourself to be vulnerable to predatory MORmON actions again. Why do not you try Stop vilifying your own own inclinations to protect yourself.

> I feel like by not publicly
> discussing my past interactions with them, I'm
> covering for their mis-deeds, and am doing harm by
> not warning others about them.

Then openly disclose / divulge those ugly aspects of MORmON dealings as much as possible.

> Anyone have any ideas how to bring the church
> leaders to the table?

Yah. Look at Dusting Lance Black. He has done more unmitigated ( in contrast to the huge amounts of mitigated damage that Gordon BS Hinckley did) damage to MORmONISM than any one around. LD$ Inc could not wait to talk to him, to try to smooth things over. Google it. But then again, WHY would any one want to sit down with filthy vile MORmON leaders ??? They are NOT going to give you an apology or a check. AT BEST they are only going to plead that they are great guys who really do not deserve to be negatively reported on.

You can make fun of them, without having to sit down with them.

> They've made some big
> mistakes. I doubt they can be sued, considering
> the length of time that has passed. If they can't
> be compelled to take responsibility, then they
> need to pay some price for their bad actions in my
> life.

that negative consequence is happening right now. in spite of LDS Inc denials, THE (MORmON) church is imploding right now.


> I served a fulltime mission for the mormon
> church in Salt Lake City Utah. I understand mormon
> politics better than some people. It'll be a
> mistake on their part if they dismiss my claims as
> just anti-mormonism and think that's the end of
> it. The biggest challenge is getting them past
> their own narcissism, and to taking responsibility
> for their own actions. They would rather lose
> hundreds of thousands of members than to do that.
> I know how to hit the church hard where it hurts
> most, although I would rather not start with that
> first.


> Any ideas about how to initiate a healthy
> dialogue with the church would be very much
> appreciated.

HOW is it possible to have healthy dialog with sick twisted toxic predatory vipers?????? are you interested in sitting down with some black mambas and / or cobras too???/



Again, WHY have dialog with LD$ inc. they are NEVER going to concede that they are really criminals and then offer to refund tithing or to apologize for anything, (They can not even apologize for Mass murder at MMM !!!) , so WHAT purpose will be served by sitting down with them ????

They did apologize for the MMM, but not until 2007. Must have been shamed into it. MMM proved that obedience is the first law of mass murder.

About resigning, are you sure you don’t need a formal resignation to walk away from a five year old’s tea party?

I don't want any money from the mormon cult. Taking money from them would be like having someone pay you for not reporting them for robbing a bank or something. They need to be fully revealed. If I could get the church to pay for the wrong they've done, I would have them give the money to a charity, a real charity, one of my choice. The case against the corrupt mormon church empire is too important to sell-out for money and just let them off the hook.

I had a period where I couldn't say anything positive about the cult. I had a lot of anger and hostility towards the organization.

I am now about 5 years out from my separation and I find that those feelings are starting to dissipate somewhat. I know that each individual is different and not everybody works on the same timeline or processes things in the same way. But that's how it worked for me. Don't get me wrong. I still have periods where my anger and bitterness really flare up again. There are things that trigger my hostility. But it is happening with decreasing frequency.

I am able to acknowledge that a lot of people that I still care about are still fully involved in the cult. They are good people - deluded perhaps, but still good people. They get support from their fellow worshipers and it provides purpose and direction to their lives. That is not an entirely bad thing.

I am better able to appreciate some of the good that came with the bad. I still wish that I hadn't been born into the cult, but I also acknowledge that there are literally billions of people in this world that would gladly trade places with me. That thought gives me perspective and helps with the bitterness.

So when it comes to re-engaging, it helps me to have a little more balanced perspective rather than approaching it from a place of straight up hostility. Yes, Joe Smith was a liar and a conman. But Joe and Brigham have been dead for a century and a half. I think as time goes by and as the church becomes further removed from its pioneer legacy, Joe and Brigham will continue to fade into irrelevance and the cult will become more mainstream and less toxic than it was for our generation. I definitely believe that there is significantly less emphasis today on obedience to authority, far-out-there doctrines, preparing for the second coming of Jesus, and an overwhelming emphasis on suppressing one's sex drive. Don't get me wrong here. Those things are definitely still there. I just think that it has improved from where it was 30-40 years ago and I expect that trend to continue. I think the church will change considerably as the WW2 and Boomer generations continue to die off and the GenXers and Millennials take their place.

I realize and accept that the church will be around in some form a lot longer than I will. But I also think the church will continue to mainstream itself and be less abusive to its followers. It will probably become no less awful than any other religion. It is religion itself that truly needs to die. For Mormonism, the emphasis will shift more towards becoming more social and less doctrinal.

I have really been amazed at how some people who once refused to even acknowledge some of the disturbing aspects of the church have opened up and are willing to at least talk about some of these things. I have friends who I once thought were lifers that have proved me wrong. I find that staying at least somewhat positive towards the church and acknowledging some of the good that it does opens the door for eventually having candid discussions about it. I don't think it is possible to engage the church itself. But it is easy to work on individual friends and family.

Best of luck. I've found the Mormon church to be absolutely toxic in every way. If you think it's possible or even desirable to engage with these people, then I wish you well.

No. I've moved around so there are no friends as of yet to meet or hang out with in current wards of my city. I could care less about having a social club with them. Good people but not worth knowing at the moment.

One thing that is difficult to accept about the church is the potential immortality of the corporation. If they will tell lies en'mass now, just think of what they will be willing to say in the future after those of us who know better, have died. After we are all dead, they might teach that Brigham Young was a warm and compassionate individual who lobbied god to allow the black race to be given the priesthood. They can say anything they want. The peak of the church's popularity was probably in the early '80s. After each great apostacy where they have screwed up and a lot of people hate them, they just lay low for a hundred years or so, and then continue-on right where they left-off, with a new identity of sorts and a clean slate. When all of the bad stuff is in antiquity, no one cares anymore.

Actually, I think the opposite is happening. The church can't lie - or at least they can't lie as easily. I think the essays were an acknowledgment that they could no longer suppress information and control their own narrative. We now live in an information age that is unprecedented.

After we are dead our words will remain. The cult will have no power to change that. Fawn Brodie has been gone for nearly 40 years. Her words are still as potent as the day she wrote them.