https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/13/health/us-hot-spots-from-opting-out-of-vaccines-study/index.html

"Hey, baby, wanna start an epidemic?"

I must admit that this post makes my blood boil. I have come across many people who won't vaccinate their children, and I feel sorry for the kids. One good thing about growing older is that I can remember a lot of things. One thing I remember is the result of the polio epidemics of the 1950s in Australia. I was born the year of the worst outbreak, but I went to school with several children in callipers, and several who had built up shoes as a result of the illness. They were the ones who survived. Today I know several people who suffer from debilitating post-polio syndrome in their old age. Do I beleive in polic vaccination YES!!!!! I see no children suffering from that crippling illness today.

As a 12 year old I was in hospital with a little girl whose doctor had failed to give her a tetnus injection after she cut her foot. She was so close to death so often I cannot count, but she finally did survive. Do I beleive in tetnus innoculation? Betcha bottom dollar I do mate!!

I have seen perfectly healthy children become retarded and slowly die as a result of measles, and blind children born because their mother contracted german measles while she was pregnant. Beleive me when I say I was the first child at the door of the public health centre when all these innoculations were introduced. My mother wanted NO PART of those terrible illnesses. Diptheria that killed several of my aunts and uncles as children is now no longer seen, neither is whooping cough and several others including smallpox which was totally eliminated. That is what I consider the greatest blessing of my generation we saw so many illness dissapear. We sadly still lose some chilren to inherited illness and cancer, but not anything like the numbers that were lost to these preventable illnesses in previous generations, including mine.

If any church members are saying to the people of Utah what was said to me when my children were young "You don't want puss from horses put in that beautiful baby;s body, do you?" I say shame. If it was going to save my child's life GO AHEAD, and all my children were vaccinated, despite the scare tactics of other members.

Please let us accept the privelages that are ours in preventing illness, and not risk our children's health. If Utah is not part of that they are risking not only their own lives, but the lives of other children, because so many of these innoculations depend on all being vaccinated. PLEASE lets not bring them back, take my word for it, they were TERRIBLE.

Whooping cough has been showing up from time to time, because of parents who won't vaccinate. They think they are saving their children from Autism, but it has already been proven that vaccines don't cause Autism. But they don't believe the science and think it's a conspiracy. Appparently the government wants children to be Autistic!

In Utah, maybe some parents can't afford to vaccinate after paying tithing.

Josephina Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> In Utah, maybe some parents can't afford to
> vaccinate after paying tithing.

That is mind-boggling. I know third-world countries with potholed roads, slow internet, 30 or 40 kids per classroom and no universal healthcare, but even there vaccinations are free.

Priorities, priorities.

Aren't vaccinations for children no or low cost to parents?

My health insurance covers most vaccinations, especially for children. Don't they all? State health clinics pick up the tab for the uninsured, do they not? If vaccines are necessary, they ought to be universal.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If vaccines are necessary, they ought
> to be universal.

I could not agree more.

Who needs vaccines when you've got an extensive population of worthy priesthood holders to divvy out miraculous blessings for the sick?

@fluhist not logged in, I wish every person who doesn't believe in vaccines could read your post.

On the same topic, possibly the stupidest comment I have ever heard in my life--on any subject--was when I was talking a few years ago with a good friend of mine, who incidentally is TBM, about her refusal to vaccinate her kids. (She since has had a few more children, and now has five kids under 11--all not vaccinated and attending public schools.) I normally make a point of not judging or interfering in anyone's parenting choices, but the anti-vaccines thing really disturbs me since it obviously ultimately affects others' health as well. Anyway, one thing I said to my TBM friend was that she might want to read up on children in poor countries who are still dying, being crippled, blinded, etc. due to a lack of vaccines.

I kid you not--this was her response:

"But we don't get those diseases in this country anymore."

Sigh. I'm not sure whether my friend bring Mormon has anything to do with that idiocy, though. I know Marin County here in the Bay Area has a very high rate of kids who aren't vaccinated, and from what I have read most of the parents tend to be very affluent, more secular/less religious, etc.

NeverMo in CA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sigh. I'm not sure whether my friend bring Mormon
> has anything to do with that idiocy, though. I
> know Marin County here in the Bay Area has a very
> high rate of kids who aren't vaccinated, and from
> what I have read most of the parents tend to be
> very affluent, more secular/less religious, etc.

You don't have to be religious to be ill-informed, even though one thing often causes another.

I grew up mostly in Idaho. Vaccinations were pretty much mandatory during my (tail end of the baby boomers) generation. Aren't they still?

Just to throw oil on the fire, vaccines have hardly been tested to the extent they should be. Science knows really very little about the world around us, especially with biochemistry. If politics is any indication, people have reason to be skeptical no matter your religion. Trading stock profits, for your great grandchildren's health (or the very existence of the human race) is not a fair trade. Study them. Prove them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2018 01:33PM by veilworker.

veilworker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> vaccines have
> hardly been tested to the extent they should be.
> (...)
> Study them. Prove them.

You must be joking. Vaccines have been used since the 18th century. They have been tried and tested more than you will ever know.

Heaven forbid viruses should have a place and purpose in the whole ecology operating on Earth. Of course, then there is the idea, humans are healthier than they have ever been (really?).

before vaccines.

My grandfather and my great uncle had polio. Great aunts and uncles had all manner of illness that caused them to be deaf or sterile.

The 1918 flu pandemic infected something like 500 million people and killed at least 50 million.

I just can't. Wow.

It is only since dawn of the modern age (computers), along with modern science tools, they have begun to have theories on what is really going on at small scale. Nature is dynamic, pull too hard on one part of the spider web and you risk straining the other side. The treatments for illness should be dynamic as well. Viruses are dynamic in the sense, they don't kill everyone, part of the group survives usually. Just because you have a supposed treatment for something, if you haven't studied it out, doesn't mean you should use it. Studying something for 10 years in rats would probably fall in to, "it hasn't been studied out".

veilworker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Studying something for 10 years in
> rats would probably fall in to, "it hasn't been
> studied out".

Most of the vaccines that we use today are essentially the same as in the days of President Harry S Truman, and the smallpox vaccine was used on children when George Washington was president. Science knows more about how vaccines work than about the coffee you drink.

Get vaccinated. Keep studying vaccines.

They just discovered a few new organs in the body, 79th and 80th, while they go about examining bodies every day and you expect me to believe they know what is going on with a vaccine at microscale levels, while being well studied out as to their safety. Granted I don't know their frame of mind, through all of the last 300 years, but, to apply (force) a treatment to the whole world on that time scale is ignorant of the effects, ignorant of all the different cultures out there.

In science class now days they teach everything is theory because Newton was wrong about his laws. So why does science continue to operate as if it's all law? You got me, all I know is I see missionaries holding up some picture of Joseph Smith and the Father and son. I left for the door a long time ago.

Interesting you bring it up though. If the basic vaccines we have stuck with had been put in use around Truman, I see no shortage of questions on "what is going on with our society?" Afraid I'd have to stick with the idea of studying such a narrow, simple-minded, cure for whatever, whenever, ails us. Nature has a way of hitting back.

When I was a kid, the March of Dimes was a charity to raise money for polio research. I can remember seeing pictures of dimes with little legs, marching around a huge room full of iron lungs each one containing a child with polio. :( I was vaccinated for everything they had vaccines for back then, which wasn't much. Smallpox was about it. I heard recently that some anti-vax mothers are holding "chicken pox parties" and inviting all their friends to bring their kids if somebody has chicken pox. A girl I went to school with had a 3 year old daughter who DIED from chicken pox. (Actually, the chicken pox turned into meningitis, which killed the little girl.) Vaccinate your kids!! I also have an autistic grandson, and I would love it if he could do some things he can't do---but I would rather have him, with his autism, than not have him. Autism is not fatal and it's not the end of the world, but refusing to vaccinate your kids might well be the end of their world, or another child's world. :(

And vaccines do not cause autism.

This has been extensively studied and there is no connection. Unfortunately an unscrupulous unethical British physician scared so many parents with his fraudulent study a number of years ago. It caused parents to be afraid or wonder about the MMR vaccine, leading to lower vaccination rates in developed western countries. We now have big measles outbreaks with deaths in France, Italy, Germany and the US that hadn’t seen anything like this in decades.

I am so sorry about your nieces illness Annon, it is tragic and breaks my heart.

I will not try to tie it into the terrible things I saw before innoculation became common. That would be crass and unthinkable. My love to your family and especially to that lovely little girl.

I'm not at all saying people shouldn't vaccinate there kids because of that fraudulent doctor. There are lots of really bad diseases people can get HOWEVER unfortuantely autism very well CAN be the end of the world some higher functioning aspies cope well with there autism and that's great. But the lower functioning aspies are often friendless and dateless and even if they have friends it can be very exhausting to keep even short conversations going sadly this can lead to a very sad isolating life. Its a painful harsh world when you cant connect with other humans.

They can have a hard time getting and keeping a job and can have very painful sensory issues. They can constantly be rejected socially time and time again and bullied relentlessly. and I recently read that sadly a lot of autistic people are dying mostly by suicide before age 40 and quite a few of the lower functioning people are dying young by wondering away and drowning stuff like that so yes unfortunately autism very well can be the end of the world indeed! :(

I'm sorry for this its just the unfortunate reality I truely hope your grandson has an ok time of things and has the very best life possible for him!

Annon oh my gosh! I just read this that is absolutely horrible! I'm so sorry you your family and your precious niece had to go through that! I truely hope the best for you guys!

I would hope that other states would follow the lead of West Virginia and now California by eliminating the personal belief exemption for vaccines. Parents can still decide not to vaccinate their children but the kids must be home schooled. They cannot attend public or private schools without being vaccinated.

Just in the first couple of years of this law being in effect, the percent of properly vaccinated in California is already very close to the recommended community levels. This is great for public health and the well-being of these children.

I sincerely hope the rest of the country follows suit.

I like that idea. I also feel that once children reach a certain age (perhaps 12,) they should be able to choose for themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2018 07:29PM by summer.

given around 15 or so. College students staying in dorms also have to be vaccinated.

The CDC weighs in --

"At the beginning of the 20th century, infectious diseases were widely prevalent in the United States and exacted an enormous toll on the population. For example, in 1900, 21,064 smallpox cases were reported, and 894 patients died. In 1920, 469,924 measles cases were reported, and 7575 patients died; 147,991 diphtheria cases were reported, and 13,170 patients died. In 1922, 107,473 pertussis cases were reported, and 5099 patients died."

That's nearly 27,000 dead from what are now four preventable diseases.

Regarding polio --

"Polio vaccine was licensed in the United States in 1955. During 1951-1954, an average of 16,316 paralytic polio cases and 1879 deaths from polio were reported each year. Polio incidence declined sharply following the introduction of vaccine to less than 1000 cases in 1962 and remained below 100 cases after that year. In 1994, every dollar spent to administer oral poliovirus vaccine saved $3.40 in direct medical costs and $2.74 in indirect societal costs."

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056803.htm

Maybe those numbers are not meaningful unless you happened to have known someone wearing leg braces or sitting in a wheelchair. President Franklin D. Roosevelt, a polio survivor, was wheelchair bound. This fact was often hidden from the U.S. population during his presidency, but he is shown sitting in a wheelchair at his memorial in Washington, D.C.

The summer before the first, live polio vaccine was introduced was particularly treacherous. Polio was striking widely. People were in iron lungs. My parents subsequently made the courageous decision to vaccinate my brother. I remember receiving liquid vaccines on sugar cubes at school in the early 60s. Polio wasn't playing, and our country treated it accordingly.

Smallpox (according to Wiki) --

"During the 18th century the disease killed an estimated 400,000 Europeans each year, including five reigning monarchs, and was responsible for a third of all blindness. Between 20 and 60% of all those infected—and over 80% of infected children—died from the disease.

During the 20th century, it is estimated that smallpox was responsible for 300–500 million deaths. In the early 1950s an estimated 50 million cases of smallpox occurred in the world each year. As recently as 1967, the World Health Organization estimated that 15 million people contracted the disease and that two million died in that year. After successful vaccination campaigns throughout the 19th and 20th centuries, the WHO certified the global eradication of smallpox in December 1979."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smallpox

There is a *reason* that people took the time, trouble, and expense to invent and produce vaccines. The reason is that the alternative is far, far worse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2018 07:27PM by summer.

Vaccines should be a personal decision. I have a niece who was harmed by her vaccines, yes, they went through all the hoops the government has set up for them to prove that it was the vaccine that caused the damage.
She was perfectly normal at 4 months old, was smiling and starting to laugh. Would track you with her eyes and turn her head to watch, developmentally fine. Within a week of her 4 month check up which included vaccines, she started having seizures. Small ones, she wasn’t having convulsions, but it was like she would check out for a couple minutes, then she would cry. This happened more and more everyday. They took her to the doctor, to the hospital. To specialists. It got worse. She couldn’t eat on her own anymore, so she has a feeding tube. They tried several different medications, some worked for a while. She stopped smiling and laughing. She no longer looked at you when you were in the room. She completely stopped progressing. When she was tow, the doctors suggested they do brain surgery, they would sever the connection between the two lobes and that should stop the seizures, which were up to over 100 a day. She was seizure free for a couple of weeks, she started smiling and laughed, even though the surgery left her blind in one eye. Then she got a fever, it was really high and they had a hard time bringing it down, her seizures started up again.
She just turned 6. She is a beautiful little girl, but she cannot walk or talk or sit up by herself. She still has a feeding tube and two nurses that help her mom take care of her full time. She was able to start a cannibis regimen about a year ago, that has helped lower the seizures from over a hundred a day to less than 20. She smiles every once in a while, will watch her older sister when she enters the room, but her brain kind of re sets with every seizure, so she can’t learn much.
Through documentation and tests and everything else, the cdc has admitted that her seizures are a result of her immunizations at 4 months.
Are immunizations helpful? I am sure there are some that are, but to say that they are not harmful and that they don’t cause things like autism or other harmful effects is wrong and very hurtful to those who have witnessed first hand what some of these immunizations can do. Should my child die to prevent yours from dying? My answers is no, your answer would be yes, who is right? What gives my child more right to live than yours? Or your child more right to live than mine? That is why I disagree with mandatory vaccines. You should have the right to choose for your child. I should hacve the right to choose for mine.

That is a terribly sad story, leave it to the experts to really muck things up. Perhaps chinese medicine, and a naturopath working together might be of aid for her seizures, just something to research if you they were looking for more possibilities, or maybe they've already been there.

Naturopathy means using medicines which have not been tested properly (the standards are much lower than for standard treatments). Naturopaths have nowhere near the knowledge that real MDs do.

If you need further details, this site has a lot of information - and is run by real MDs:

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/

Tom in Paris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2018 03:09AM by Soft Machine.

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Naturopathy means using medicines which have not
> been tested properly (the standards are much lower
> than for standard treatments). Naturopaths have
> nowhere near the knowledge that real MDs do.
>
> If you need further details, this site has a lot
> of information - and is run by real MDs:
>
> https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/
>
> Tom in Paris

Unfortunately many people have gone to their graves believing MD's have more knowledge than some ND's, some have found out soon enough to be grateful. If you ever have a chronic disease and even some accute problems, I hope for your sakes you are in the latter group. I understand, you probably have just never done research on what a modern day ND does for their training or perhaps are thinking of some ND's from the past (and some online schools).

I'll even say Traditional chinese medicine to include with my opening statement. They have been documenting their form of medicine in textbooks for 1000's of years. Allopathic medicine pales in it's documenting of illness.

Zero. Nada. Goose egg.

Evidence? I didn't think so.

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Zero. Nada. Goose egg.
>
> Evidence? I didn't think so.


Well, maybe just this once...

maybe you've never heard of bastyr

https://bastyr.edu/academics/search-programs

Yeah and chinese medicine,

https://www.amazon.com/Yellow-Emperors-Classic-Internal-Medicine/dp/0520288262/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1529368308&sr=8-2&keywords=The+Yellow+Emperor%27s+Classic+of+Internal+Medicine

Ask around, more and more people are seeing alternative practitioners than you might think, because medicine has failed them. Allopathy has been savage for a long time. Maybe you've seen the bone saws of the past.

I know about alternative medicine.

Do you have any randomized double-blind studies to support *anything* you've written?

You made the assertion - you hold the burden. I don't have to do your homework for you. Otherwise, you're talking out of your butt. <-- That's a technical term.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2018 08:41PM by Beth.

I have to thank you, veilworker, for some great laughs.

You are right. Most (or all) of us have not heard of Bastyr University. It's not exactly cutting edge now, is it? Your link to the university's website, moreover, hardly constitutes proof of your point--whatever it may be in this iteration. It is, after all, a link to a university's website.

As for the book on Chinese medicine, it isn't a scholarly review of the efficacy of Eastern medicine, right? It's a translation of a very old text. It proves nothing except what some ancient Chinese thought--and we know that eternal life, infinite libido, and alchemy were among the topics these people believed in.

Great stuff!

Well my suggestion to maybe see a naturopath, perhaps a doctor of chinese medicine, was written for the person that posted for their neice, not for you. I simply wanted to defend the suggestion so they were still open to it, not caught up in the ignorance of others claiming MD's know more than ND's. If you know about alternative medicine, you might know, Kaiser covers visits to ND's, and acupuncture also, wonder why?

The link to Bastyr was to help you see they have 4 years of school along with a residency, so you're both welcome.

The link to the book, was to demonstrate they have indeed been refining their medicine for thousands of years. You want studies, I still don't know about what? Studies about controlling seizures with combination therapy? Studies about comparatives between ND's and MD's ? Medicine or medical history (if that is what that even falls under)?

I'm not shoving this down anyone's throats. If you feel so inclined, or in such need in the future, you'll follow down the rabbit hole, or take the other pill. Go to pub-med yourself. As it stands the answer is "42", "I knew you wouldn't like it".

"along with a residency..."

Yet not one of their studies, going back to 1995, has been published. Not. One. Not even the one receiving NIH/NCCAM funding let alone the ones they self-funded - and you have a problem with bias inherent in self-serving studies, right?

https://bastyr.edu/research/studies

Please - you can try and give the OP a dose of your hokum, and I can push back on it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2018 11:04PM by Beth.

If Chinese medicine worked so well, why are all the Chinese countries expanding their Western medicine facilities as fast as they possibly can? China is literally training as many doctors as they can, importing teachers to accelerate the process.

I'm also amused that you act as if naturopathy, Chinese medicine, and acupuncture are interchangeable. The practitioners of those forms of medicine do not agree with that; they are like the religious, committed to their own school and dismissive of everyone else.

You began your participation in this thread by criticizing, against all credible evidence, vaccination. Losing that battle, you switched to alternative medicine--again with no indication of expertise or even education in the field. The one constant is that you can't defend what you say.

Perhaps you are a graduate of Bastyr University?

Annon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Through documentation and tests and everything
> else, the cdc has admitted that her seizures are a
> result of her immunizations at 4 months.

Link?

Annon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vaccines should be a personal decision.

> You should have the right to choose for
> your child. I should hacve the right to choose for
> mine.

I'm sorry but that is nonsense. There are people (like the very old, very young, and infirm) who cannot get vaccinated and whose survival depends on the herd immunity of everyone else. When too many people opt out of vaccines, that herd immunity is lost and their life is in danger. By choosing not to vaccinate your kids, you are choosing to possibly kill the child of someone else - or perhaps one of your other children.

Visitors Welcome Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Annon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Vaccines should be a personal decision.
>
> > You should have the right to choose for
> > your child. I should hacve the right to choose
> for
> > mine.
>
> I'm sorry but that is nonsense. There are people
> (like the very old, very young, and infirm) who
> cannot get vaccinated and whose survival depends
> on the herd immunity of everyone else. When too
> many people opt out of vaccines, that herd
> immunity is lost and their life is in danger. By
> choosing not to vaccinate your kids, you are
> choosing to possibly kill the child of someone
> else - or perhaps one of your other children.


So spend some time developing vaccines they can take. I should think it rude to pronounce somebody else's statement, "nonsense" without walking a mile in their shoes. I think your post nonsense too, doesn't mean I come out and say it.

veilworker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I should think it rude to pronounce
> somebody else's statement, "nonsense" without
> walking a mile in their shoes.

Not at all. It would be rude to do so without providing arguments. I gave my arguments in favor of vaccines. Your arguments, however, don't impress me much. Come up with evidence.

Visitors Welcome Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> veilworker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I should think it rude to pronounce
> > somebody else's statement, "nonsense" without
> > walking a mile in their shoes.
>
> Not at all. It would be rude to do so without
> providing arguments. I gave my arguments in favor
> of vaccines. Your arguments, however, don't
> impress me much. Come up with evidence.

I see, you want "evidence" as in the latest study that has been funded by a pharmaceutical company. Or perhaps from a doctor that receives kickbacks from them. Maybe something in the line of, somebody indicating to a picture of a semi, and calling it a "weapon of mass destruction". Maybe a .gov website explaining herd immunity? Yeah, I prefer real analysis, thanks.

If you prefer "real analysis," you should be able to provide links to it.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you prefer "real analysis," you should be able
> to provide links to it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aboZctrHfK8

Yeah, I try and stay away from too much missionary work these day's. There are enough stories of 2+2 not adding up with big medicine involved, I'm sure you wouldn't have to look too far.

So you don't really have credible evidence.

Thanks for clarifying.

veilworker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I see, you want "evidence" as in the latest study
> that has been funded by a pharmaceutical company.
> Or perhaps from a doctor that receives kickbacks
> from them. Maybe something in the line of,
> somebody indicating to a picture of a semi, and
> calling it a "weapon of mass destruction". Maybe
> a .gov website explaining herd immunity? Yeah, I
> prefer real analysis, thanks.

I understand your scepticism, but there are plenty of independent studies. And why would a website explaining vaccines be untrustworthy just because a government sponsors it?

You are beginning to sound like the mad preachers we have here in the islamic world claiming that vaccines are a global conspiracy to make muslim girls barren and muslim boys gay.
The evidence for their claims? Some muslim girls are barren and some muslim boys are gay.

Visitors Welcome Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> veilworker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I see, you want "evidence" as in the latest
> study
> > that has been funded by a pharmaceutical
> company.
> > Or perhaps from a doctor that receives
> kickbacks
> > from them. Maybe something in the line of,
> > somebody indicating to a picture of a semi, and
> > calling it a "weapon of mass destruction".
> Maybe
> > a .gov website explaining herd immunity? Yeah,
> I
> > prefer real analysis, thanks.
>
> I understand your scepticism, but there are plenty
> of independent studies. And why would a website
> explaining vaccines be untrustworthy just because
> a government sponsors it?
>
> You are beginning to sound like the mad preachers
> we have here in the islamic world claiming that
> vaccines are a global conspiracy to make muslim
> girls barren and muslim boys gay.
> The evidence for their claims? Some muslim girls
> are barren and some muslim boys are gay.

You could have said the same thing about Fascism. Why untrustworthy?

I'm sure there are studies done in Islamic countries (beats me?). When was the last time you heard of reviews on any possible findings they might have to suggest such a thing, if there are any such studies? Maybe it is evidence, but you wouldn't hear about it through the American Medical Association.

Red herring.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Red herring.


That would depend on who you talk to in what part of the world. Vaccine damaged is vaccine damaged, I'm not saying it is, but,...yeah I'm off it...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2018 06:06PM by veilworker.

You've been arguing that vaccines cause autism. We countered that you don't have credible evidence to support that.

Now you switch to the argument that vaccines may cause infertility and homosexuality in the Islamic world and implicitly asked us to investigate such claims.

That is a red herring. It is meant to distract us from the fact that you cannot support your original contention that vaccines cause autism.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You've been arguing that vaccines cause autism.
> We countered that you don't have credible evidence
> to support that.
>
> Now you switch to the argument that vaccines may
> cause infertility and homosexuality in the Islamic
> world and implicitly asked us to investigate such
> claims.
>
> That is a red herring. It is meant to distract us
> from the fact that you cannot support your
> original contention that vaccines cause autism.

It's tempting to respond, but I don't think you are following that well. Follow my argument, think it through yourself. Actually the other guy brought up something from left field (his/her own red herring), I just used it to further my point. Who knows maybe I'll play debate club at a further date, then we can get kicks off logical fallacies and everything. (But the video was great wasn't it ...haha?)

"It's tempting to respond."

Evidently.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Now you switch to the argument that vaccines may
> cause infertility and homosexuality in the Islamic
> world and implicitly asked us to investigate such
> claims.

No he didn't, thankfully. He has a habit of quoting everything that came before, so then you get "Lot's Wife Wrote: veilworker wrote: Visitors Welcome wrote:" etc.

I'm the one who brought up the following: "You are beginning to sound like the mad preachers we have here in the islamic world claiming that vaccines are a global conspiracy to make muslim girls barren and muslim boys gay.
The evidence for their claims? Some muslim girls are barren and some muslim boys are gay."

And I stand by that point. He or she dismisses all scientific evidence but brings nothing in return. Just like fringe preachers.

Actually, s/he did say that vaccines "may" (my word) cause homosexuality in the Muslim world. You brought the topic up, contending that it was insane.

Veilworker then wrote that whether or not vaccinations caused homosexuality "would depend on who you talk to in what part of the world. Vaccine damaged is vaccine damaged, I'm not saying it is, but,..."

So yes, I feel comfortable saying that s/he tried to send us off down the Islamic conspiracy-theorist rat hole.

I really don't understand the "No Vaccine" parents. They are not afraid for their children? How good is their science education?

Most of these parents are just worried about their kids and aren't sure what to do. As the article states, making vaccine avoidance at all more difficult, increases vaccination rates. Saying no to the vaccines is sometimes the default position that these uncertain parents take, because it means doing nothing and is the path of least resistance while they "think about it.”

Very few of the parents are really hard core. That is what has shown up with the California experience. They aren't willing to home school their children to avoid the vaccines.

Interestingly, in California, some of the biggest hotbeds of non-vaccination were in some of our wealthiest (and presumably better educated) counties, like Marin.

"News that Impacts your Health that Other Media Sources May Censor!"

I think the subtitle to that website tells it all. Conspiracies, don't be fooled, big government, what they don't want you to know.

For those who find the article TL;DR I'll add that the last paragraph is titled "Is it Ethical to Kill Children to Save Children?" So then you already know where it's heading.

Two words: Stupid sub-cult!