Once I leave the church, do I have a moral imperative to warn others? Is it better for me not to disturb people who may be content? Is the answer to this question different for my family? I feel like I am betraying someone if I speak up, and someone else if I do not. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Your morals are your own -- decide for yourself.
Leaving the church, hopefully you've realized that the morals imposed on you by the old guys in SLC aren't your morals. That rather than living by imposed morals, you can (and should) come up with your own. And that what you come up with won't be the same as what everybody else comes up with.

I'll tell you what I came up with:

I don't "preach" leaving mormonism to mormons. I don't bring up why I left or the problems with mormon claims.

But if/when a mormon wants to discuss their religion with me (which is usually them wanting to reconvert me), I let them know I'm happy to do so, and that I'll be brutally honest -- and then I AM brutally honest. And I don't care if they're content or not.

Your mileage may vary...:)

If I were in this position (which I am not), I would feel an "obligation to warn."

The least potentially offensive way to warn someone, in this situation, would be a series of "I" statements:

"I" have left the church.

"I" left the church because of …

Since I left the church, "I" have learned [intellectual facts]...

Now that I have left the church, "I" have discovered [daily living facts]...

If you keep your part of the communication relentlessly "I" based (rather than "you" based), the words will undoubtedly still come across as offensive...but less offensive than would have been the case if you had used other ways to express the same facts.

I'm with Hie.

Those who believe do so without regard to facts and logic. They believe with their heart and not their mind. So with people that I care about (and the ancillary people around my loved ones) I am very gentle. I disbelieve with my heart with them. This was particularity helpful with my still believing children and spouse.

But if they came to me with a hint of sincerity I would open up to them.

If I don't care for you or know you than I'll tell you that god is dead and Elohim killed him, Dark Materials style.

I think you should leave them alone. If they want to talk to you about it, then talk to them.

Belief isn't a rational behavior, it's more of an instinctive one. there is evidence that we evolved belief responses to help us cooperate which made us more effective as a species for reproducing and passing on the genes.

As a generalization, you will not make headway against a person's instincts to believe. The instinctive rewards are pretty strong. That's why so much of the world believes in spite of evidence otherwise. Besides, they experience life satisfaction from the practice.

Most people aren't ready to live without belief in what they currently believe. Telling them that are wrong only alienates you from them. You're acting against their genetic instincts to cooperate with religion and putting yourself outside cooperative bases at their instinctual level.

This doesn't help you live your life and have a community to be part of. so it's better to let them be both for you and for them unless they want to have that part of their life agitated by your insights.

Socrates was killed for the behavior you feel compelled toward.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2018 03:41PM by dogblogger.

I couldn’t keep what I had learned away from my sons. At first, they were afraid I would “wreck Dad in the church,” which required Dad telling them that he thought mormonism was a joke all along.

Once they knew that we were both done, it gave them the freedom to tell us about their own doubt. One son said, “I’m way ahead of you guys!” He quit believing as a teenager, but was afraid to tell us until he knew there was no danger of shattering us.

My oldest son (previous marriage) disenfranchised every one of us for leaving the church.

As for others hearing the truth, it’s not up to me.

In my opinion, I wouldn't worry about preaching. My mom is a TBM and if I told her she would be more upset than anything. It's best to use the golden rule: If you don't like being "converted" then don't try to convert anyone else out of the religion.

Anybody who has access to the internet can access the information that led you out of the LDS church. There is no need for you to say one word about this to anyone, unless THEY bring it up.

When I was young, before the Internet, I had to ferret out this information, buying books, utilizing interlibrary loans, reading the Tanners newsletter, and all the rest of it.

It was a lot of WORK time and money, digging up this info.

Now it is available to anyone at the touch of a button.

People who chose to remain TBM, do so because they CHOOSE to do so, not because they do not have access to information. EVERYBODY has access to information.

So you are under no moral obligation whatsoever.

Think of the analogy of a woman whose husband is cheating, and on some level she KNOWS he is cheating, but she believes she will lead a happier life if she pretends that he is a faithful, loving husband, so that is what she does.

We all need our illusions.

Lois

Sometimes less is more. My journey out of Catholicism began when, while sitting beside my father, I heard him softly disagree with what a priest was saying during mass. That sent me a powerful message -- that it was okay to think differently than religious authorities.

So if people ask you why you left, and are not content with vague answers (i.e. disagreements with church doctrines, policies, history, etc.) then I would give them one thing to chew on. "I could list any number of things, but one example of something that I am personally not comfortable with is [fill in the blank.] That one thing may put a small chink in the other person's wall, or it might not. It might be the beginning of their journey out, or it may not.

For someone who is truly insistent, I would point them to Mormon Think, the CES letter, or similar sources, and say, "This is a beginning, and it will either be meaningful to you or it won't. If not, that's okay, but it was meaningful to me."

lowpriest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Once I leave the church, do I have a moral
> imperative to warn others?

No. If you feel you must let your influence and reputation with them be their guide. My responses are merely my opinions.

> Is it better for me not
> to disturb people who may be content?

Depends. Are they content? I think they would only be content with you and your beliefs. You don't really have a way to measure their contentment well.

> Is the
> answer to this question different for my family?

I don't think so. I think family needs to know where you stand with them in regards to their Mormonism unless you are in the closet. Then I don't know what you would want to be doing. Sabotaging the church?

> I
> feel like I am betraying someone if I speak up,
> and someone else if I do not. I would love to hear
> your thoughts.

My thoughts are what I do. I let them initiate. If they want my truth I let them. They don't like it most of the time. Mormons are continually trying with me though because I'm passive. They get the same disappointment time and again.

I wouldn't presume to tell them what not to believe. But I do let them know that I think they beliefs are false. I've had my children accuse me of thinking less of them for believing. We've had a lot of hard conversations. I don't think less of them but I don't think more of their beliefs because they believe them.

I think your main goal needs to be to yourself. After that, you get to decide.

From whence does the obligation spring?

If you're a deist, and you feel that as a good son of ghawd, you have a duty to broadcast the truth as you know it, why would you care if there were those who did not believe you? Just toe the line you think ghawd drew and let the others do their own thing, which might include criticizing you.

If you're not a deist, from whence could the obligation spring? Answer that question and then decide if the obligation is binding. If a rich relative is going to fondly and richly remember you in her will if you accept an obligation she lays on you, I'd sure do it!

As an old foursquare meal & pie for dessert atheist, I've out-lived all those who at one time might have laid an obligation on me. I'm left with a self-imposed obligation (which is richly rewarding): make Saucie laugh/be happy.

I wish I could 'save' all the stray dogs & cats in the world, but these are two obligations I can't accept because of the heartache that would follow. Such obligations are too painful to accept. (I have to change the channel when one of those 'save the animals' commercials comes on.)

Turning to a third party who isn't a deity to ask about the obligations one should accept is not something I intend to ever do again.

I have found over the last few years that most mormons are not accepting or able to open up and hear negative information and take it in. Because of all the pent up trauma and hurt from 40 years of being duped, I tend to vomit up too much information and it is clear i still get triggered. Then it all comes across as "anti". Bottom line is it doesn't do anything to convince people the church is a scam.

I find the softer approach of letting them ask curious questions and then responding with facts in a direct, non emotional way is the best manner. But actively going after people to warn them will generally not end well.

When I have an opportunity to cause someone to question falsehood (in this case the church) I jump at it. You see I have this conviction that the truth matters and that when people attach their wagon to a lie no matter what it is people will eventually suffer in ways they don't understand at the time.

This happened the other day when a woman who converted to Mormonism about a year ago came by to pick up a mutual friend who stays at my home on the weekends. While she was waiting for him to get his things together she asked me why I didn't attend with my wife. I explained that after serving a mission, temple marriage and 20 so years in the church I had discovered that the church had been rather dishonest in not revealing some of its history. That lead to more questions which ended in my recommending to her that she look up and read CES letter. Hope she did.

It is a 'fools errand' to try to talk someone who is in the church out of it.

All we can do is try to live the measure of our existence and do our best to be kind to other humans. It is not kind to tip over someone elses apple cart. IMHO. Let how you live your life speak for itself. Then when a believer in distress comes to you have empathy for the agony of what they are going through and show them the kindness that TBM's are often lacking in such matters

I can shread the average TBM testimony in mere seconds. Sometimes, it's not a pretty sight when the believer is suddenly stripped of their coping mechanisms. In the Matrix movie series, they often debate the morality of 'unplugging' someone or 'freeing a soul', to a reality that is less attractive than the world the person originally lived in, never aware previously that their world was not reality. When the person is ready and if you are there when that happens, possibly you have an obligation to help them. Keep in mind, the other person's free will.

"After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill- you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I am offering is the truth." - Morpheus.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2018 11:43PM by azsteve.

If someone confided in me that they are thinking of joining or if a member seemed to be questioning, I would ask if they want to hear what I have to say. If they say'no'I would drop the subject. Mormonism can work for some and I dont like proselytizing so I am not going to foist my views on others unless they want to hear them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2018 11:54PM by bona dea.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If someone confided in me that they are thinking
> of joining or if a member seemed to be
> questioning, I would ask if they want to hear what
> I have to say. If they say'no'I would drop the
> subject. Mormonism can work for some and I dont
> like proselytizing so I am not going to foist my
> views on others unless they want to hear them.

This approach suits me, too. Thanks!

You don’t have one. These things work themselves without you stirring up the hornets nest.

My personal morals include not making happy people unhappy. So I leave happy Mormons alone. But I'm available for the doubting, dissatisfied, unhappy Mormons. But they have to ask.

It's what I would want for myself. Leave me alone about things that make me happy, but help if I ask for it.

Until and/or unless someone takes a look at 'things' from the other side, they are really limited in what they can let into their minds. I am amazed at how I look at 'things' now from the other side; I was never able to do so when I was still in my old mindset.