I apologize up-front that this will be a long post. I have been friends for about six years with a very sweet neighbor who is TBM to the core, whom I'll call "Emma." Her oldest child, a girl, is my daughter's age, and she also has three other, younger children (all boys), with the youngest two being only three and an infant. She's also a full-time, stay-at-home mom, and of course does the usual TBM things on top of all that--teaches a Primary class, cleans the church when it's their family's turn, etc.

In other words, like any mother of four active young children, especially one who is with them all the time, she appears exhausted almost every time I see her and often sounds mildly depressed as well. Unfortunately, in my experience (as well as my observations of many others mothers I know), that is not so unusual.

What has always been disturbing, however, is that her husband seems to be not only clueless about how hard she has it but also shows some (possibly) abusive behavior. The one that has always stood out to me is possible financial abuse. Yes, having four kids costs a lot, and yes, we live in the SF Bay Area, probably the most expensive region of the country. However, her husband makes good money--I have a pretty good idea how much, as I used to work in tech also, and my husband as well as most other people I know around here also work in high tech, including some who work for the same large company as my friend's husband does. I'd say my TBM friend's hubby must be earning around $150 K, give or take a few thousand. Although housing costs are astronomical here, their house is small and very modest, and they have spent very little (if anything) on fixing it up.

Without boring everyone with too many details, it is clear to me both from my observations as well as things my friend tells me that she and her husband spend almost nothing except on the most basic of necessities: the mortgage, utilities and food and (very occasionally) clothing, all of which, apart from her husband's work clothing, seems to be purchased from thrift stores. Their furniture seems to be almost entirely hand-me-downs from relatives and is VERY worn, not that I think I think there is anything wrong with that; I'm just making the point that they truly spend virtually nothing on anything but the most basic essentials. Of course, I am sure they also spend on that "essential," tithing.

Meanwhile, Emma is more often than not wearing clothes with holes in them, as, frequently, are her kids. Her daughter, the oldest, usually wears shoes that are falling apart--they are so tattered they barely stay on her feet. Although our girls are the same age, my daughter is taller and bigger, so maybe twice a year I give Emma a large bag of girls' clothing in good condition. To give you an idea how these poor kids are usually dressed, another neighbor said to me recently, "'Emma' told me that you just gave her daughter a lot of your daughter's old clothes. I figured someone had done that, because I'd never seen her kids wearing anything that nice before." :-( To be clear, it's not like my daughter is wearing expensive or designer clothing, either: Most of what I gave Emma had been purchased at Target, JC Penney's, etc. It's just that the clothes were still newish-looking and didn't have stains or holes.

The worst example of this is that a year or two ago, Emma mentioned she had gone thrift-store shopping and had found a cute sweater for herself--she said it cost only three dollars but looked great. I said I was curious to see it. She then told me her husband had taken it from her as soon as she'd come home and put it away in a closet, because "He says we can wrap it and that can be one of my Christmas presents." !!! He finally bought her a cell phone about two years ago, and that was only because she'd gotten into a minor car accident one day and had been unable to call anyone for help.

To be clear, I do not think any of what I've described is necessarily abusive in and of itself. I know plenty of people who are major bargain-hunters, love thrift-store shopping, etc. I love buying things secondhand myself (although I am not buying myself or anyone else items that are stained or have holes in them). I'm not sure Emma would even disagree with her husband about their extreme thriftiness, other than that I know she was resentful when she didn't have a cell phone; that is the only time I have ever heard her even mildly complain about him.

However, the extreme thrift is only one aspect of Emma's situation. She is constantly saying things like, "I cleaned all day, weeded the garden, made cupcakes for a school party, etc...but 'Tom' says I could get a lot more done if I would just organize my time better." (Remember, she's doing all this with four kids, two of whom are still too young for school and one in diapers.) "'Tom' says if I would just learn to manage my time, I could plant even more vegetables, and we wouldn't have to supplement with veggies from Safeway." (They truly have the largest, most impressive vegetable garden I have ever seen...but okay.) "'Tom' says there's no point putting Lucas in pre-school part-time because I'm home anyway, and it's an unnecessary cost." "Tom says I could be making the kids healthier meals." And on and on. What's especially sad is that she doesn't say these things to me like she is letting off steam; they are all conveyed in an "I guess Tom has a point--I could be doing better" tone. :-(

Yesterday, I was speaking with another friend who is also close to "Emma," the TBM friend. In fact, she sees Emma much more than I do, as their houses are on the same street. She told me she is concerned enough for Emma that she has started keeping a written log of things Emma says to her about her home situation. She asked me to start keeping a log too. I was surprised, and I asked, "Do you believe he hits her?" (I have never suspected that, btw.)

My friend replied, "No, I don't, but there are other types of abuse."

I agree; however, as I told my friend, "What are you going to do? Go to the police and say her husband is an extreme cheapskate? Say that he criticizes her housekeeping?"

If anything, as I told my other friend, I am concerned that if either of us were even to suggest to Emma that Tom's treatment of her is not good, she might tell him, and then he would probably try to prevent her from seeing us. My other friend also said yesterday that she has not felt welcome by Tom for quite a while now if she stops by to see Emma, and she believes he is trying to isolate Emma from her. I feel if there is one thing Emma needs in this situation, it is friends. At least the other friend and I can offer to watch her kids (we often do), give her kids some decent clothes, etc. If Tom is truly trying to isolate Emma from people, I don't think pissing him off is going to help.

One more thing I find disturbing, although it may seem trivial: About two weeks ago, I was talking with Emma, and she mentioned in passing that Tom was gone for the weekend, leading a Cub Scout camping trip. (He's away on Cub Scout camping trips for their church troops fairly often.) A few days after that, I ran into Tom and, being friendly, asked, "So, did you have a good time camping?" Tom has always been friendly to me in the past, but he suddenly got an odd look on his face and asked, "How did you know I was camping?" I was taken aback by his reaction to such an innocent question and said, "Well, I saw Emma last weekend, and she mentioned you went on a Cub Scout trip." "Oh," he responded, still sounding a little...I don't know, slightly annoyed perhaps. "Yes, it was nice, thanks." I mean, WTH? It's no secret he's a Cub Scouts troop leader and goes camping a lot, so why wouldn't I have known? It made me wonder--and this was prior to talking with my other friend yesterday--if maybe he was starting to try to isolate his wife from people. Like, how dare she discuss what he or their family does.

Has anyone faced a similar situation with a friend or family member where you suspect abuse, but it is not clear-cut, physical abuse? Any suggestions on how I can best support my poor friend without making this worse? Another potential issue is that both myself and the friend who said she's started keeping a log of things Emma tells her are neverMos. I'm Catholic, albeit not religious, and the friend who fears Emma is being isolated is a very devout Catholic. I'm concerned that could make Tom even more likely to isolate Emma from us (if in fact that's what he's doing). I personally do not believe it would be a good idea to get involved in any way other than to continue being a friend to Emma, but perhaps I'm wrong.

I don't think you can get a case of abuse started. This is fairly typical with some mormon women. Not all. Depends on their personality. I have a friend, who was my VT for a while, whose husband and OLDEST SON do this same thing to her. She is never good enough. She could do things much better if she just tried. blah, blah, blah

I heard it as a SAHM, too, with my ex. I went out looking for a part-time job without him knowing as I had to have my own money as I just couldn't spend any of his without being asked to tell him where the money went right to the penny. My way of sticking it to him when he was a total ass was to go spend some money on the kids and write it on the check as what the check was for.

What these women don't understand and it took me a long time to get it is that it wouldn't matter if they did EVERYTHING perfectly, her husband would still find something wrong with how she does things, etc. You finally just have to say to yourself, "Bullshit." I have to fight this all the time even as an exmormon in a relationship with a nonmormon. We have been taught as mormon women to be submissive. We are supposed TO please our husbands in every way. It is our job.

The issue here is she needs to learn to stand up to him and I don't know how you are going to get her to do that. My mother was the same way. She found passive aggressive ways to pay my dad back for how he tried to control her. It got to be really quite funny the things she'd do to him.

I refuse to live with my boyfriend for this very reason. I did live with him (we don't share children) for a year and we got along great when he was gone to CA to work Monday to Friday and I stayed at his home and worked and babysat his dog. BUT all the time? No. Never again.

I really don't think there is a case for abuse here. Be there to listen, but I wouldn't butt in as she needs as a friend. Since you aren't mormons, I'm surprised her husband "allows" her to be your friend. That in itself means he doesn't completely control her. Mormons aren't supposed to be friends with nonmormons unless they are trying to convert them.

First thought: is he really making a lot of money? It's possible he's putting up a front. Or he grew up in a poor house with cheapskate parents and he's trying to hoard as much in savings as possible. He truly could be one of these priesthood holder jerks we read about so often who thinks he's a "god in embryo" and plays god by taking it out on his wife. Maybe they had one of those married-after-6-weeks-of-returning-from-his-mission and he/they realize it was a mistake. Worst case scenario he's spending money on somebody else.

I didn't see that you've observed what they look like on Sunday morning--is that the one time they are all spit-spot and looking sharp? Or not even then?

How do they look on Sundays?

My neighbors have 6 kids. Their kids during the week are in shabby clothes. They play hard and the clothes show it. Their mother dresses the same as the kids during the week.

They are WONDERFUL people and I just adore the kids. They are well behaved and do things for me all the time.

You should see them on Sundays. They are all dressed perfectly. Their dad doesn't earn a lot of money. He is actually in school right now while working, too.

A lot of mormon women are like this. If they aren't assertive, it is difficult to learn for them. I see it ALL OVER IN UTAH.

Oh, and my neighbor isn't passive. They really are a team.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2018 01:49PM by cl2.

It does sound like she's very controlled by her overly controlling hubby.

To take a $3 thrift store find she bought for herself and have her gift it to another is just disgusting.

He doesn't appreciate her for what she does. And yet she stands by him.

If not physical abuse it does sound like emotional.

How long before she buckles? Who knows? He sounds like the kind of guy who would cheat on her without a second thought.

The poor woman has no life of her own. That is most sad and reflects poorly on her and her family.

You can't call the police and report mental abuse ,

there is no law against it and there are no physical

markes to prove it.

All you can do is be there for her when and if she ever

needs help . Anything other than watching from the sidelines

would be construed as intrusive and maybe unwanted help. Just

wait and watch ... hopefully she'll ask for your help one day.

My first husband didn't like me talking to friends about things going on in my life and I believe it wasn't because he was abusive, it's because he knows mormons are nosey and gossipy. We were also young when we got married and he didn't know the difference between making a helpful remark and being overly critical. He just wasn't very mature.

I think the only thing you can do with this friend is to build up her self confidence to counteract his drag on her self esteem. But that's about all you can do. Also, don't mention to the husband anything she might have told you. He'll take it as her gossiping behind his back. And that will make him reactionary and take it out on her. He likely doesn't have the best self esteem either. Why else would you put your wife down constantly?

My advice is to keep your eyes and ears open. Keeping a log of comments and dates may be helpful also.

Trust your gut. Your intuition is sending you signals that say: pay attention, something is "off" about this woman's situation. Listen for the inconsistencies. And, you are not the only one picking up on clues that indicate something is going on that does not add up.

In my volunteer work classes to be a CASA (Court Appointed Special Advocate), and a Monitor for Court Mandated Supervised Visitation, and my experience with cases, plus working with Social Services, I learned a lot about recognizing the different kinds of abuse. Emotion abuse (which this appears to be)is the hardest to prove. Keeping a log may be needed if this gets turns into something severe.

My second Devoted Exmo's advice. She stated my concerns also.

You and the other friend are in a unique position as she trusts both of you. I doubt she is telling the women in the LDS Church what is going on. That bond of friendship may be what she needs to lean to use her own strength to handle her difficult home situation. If there is a time when she needs help, hopefully, she come to one or both of you. She is sending clear help signals, in my opinion.

My personal opinion is that he is hiding something big.

>>My personal opinion is that he is hiding something big.

Yeah, this.

I knew a woman in a similar situation. Her husband had a great job and was a high earner, but complained if she bought so much as new kitchen towels.

He eventually divorced his wife. He was a multi-millionaire and had been squirreling money away for years in places his wife could never find it. Needless to say she did not do well in the divorce.

I would keep being a friend to Emma. Keep complimenting her for her hard work and her prodigious skills. But I would encourage her to (on the sly) get a financial education. Tell her to read the yearly tax return along with the accompanying documents very, very carefully before she signs it. She can tell her husband that she never signs any legal document before reading it. And ideally, she should keep her own copies of these forms in a safe place, perhaps with a friend.

I will say this, the money is going somewhere. Given the high cost of living in the Bay area, it might be going to the mortgage. It might be going into investments. But your friend absolutely needs to know where the money is going. Otherwise, she could one day end up with the short end of the stick.

summer Wrote:
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> >>My personal opinion is that he is hiding
> something big.
>
> Yeah, this.


Thanks, summer for expanding on my statement. I have seen something similar, up close. The husband knew the wife would believe everything he told her. Never question it. Even support it and get angry if it was challenged. Yup. He was lying about a lot of stuff. Why would a man keep the wife uninformed of the household finances? In this case, the house was in foreclosure. Wife was blindsided. The wife learned very quickly that she had been betrayed and lied to for years.

I'm afraid that any change is going to have to come from Emma. This is her life, and some part of her has chosen this.

Since there doesn't appear to be any overt physical abuse going on, there's not really anything you can do legally.

I think the best thing you can do is help Emma to see her world differently. And by differently, I mean "more healthily". She needs to look at her situation and ask herself if she is happy. If this is what she wants for her life. She needs to ask herself what she wants to accomplish with her life. Is anything missing? If so, what can she do to get it?

She has to want better clothes, better shoes, better treatment from her husband - enough to go after it and secure it. If she doesn't want these things, then she's evidently content with the status quo.

Hopefully, by being good examples to her of happy, self-realized females, you and your friend can inspire her to want more for herself and her family. And then perhaps you can help direct her efforts to secure that.

Your concern for your neighbor is commendable. Thank you for sharing.

poor emma. get together and have a daytime girls party where you do nails, hair, makeup and maybe exchange some clothes or cheap jewelry and see how she does.

if she likes it and the jerk tells her she can't keep the new makeover, there could be problems and she may or may not stand up to him.

in any case, it would be a fun time for all. she may start to see she can look and feel better about herself and that it's not all about making everyone else happy.

I really appreciate all of the responses and advice here. SusieQ, it had never occurred to me that a log of non-physical abuse could prove helpful one day if things get worse, so maybe I will start tracking Emma's comments to me. It also hadn't occurred to me that she may be talking with this other friend and me because we are not LDS.

I agree with what many of you have said here; as I said to my other friend yesterday, since there is nothing at this point which is reportable to the police, I truly do not see how we can get more involved. I agree it would probably only make things worse. The best thing we can do for Emma is simply to keep being supportive friends, including, as DevotedExmo says, trying to build her self-esteem. I am always praising her for her amazing gardening skills, admiring how much she gets done around her house and at her kids' school despite having four young kids, etc. I often comment to her on what a kind and thoughtful person she is as well. I hope at least some of it she takes to heart.

I also hope you are correct that if things are even worse than they appear, that one day Emma will ask one of us, or someone else, for help. I was so startled, frankly, yesterday, when my other friend said she's been keeping a log of things Emma tells her. I really do hope it's not as bad as it may be, but I will keep my eyes and ears open. Thank you all again for sage advice.

A few of you also asked if I've ever seen their Sunday clothes. No, as I'm generally trying to sleep in that day, although I would imagine they do dress well for church as their faith is so important to them.

Dear NeverMo in CA

You are witnessing what I think is a typical Mormon marriage. Mormon males are taught that they are superior to women, that they are the head of the household, and that women are second-class citizens. This has been true in many generations of Mormon marriages in my family, and among my friends and their parents. This type of authoritarian marriage runs deep in the cult philosophy. Until a few years ago, during the Mormon temple ceremony, men would pledge their loyalty and obedience to God, and the women would pledge their loyalty and obedience to their husband. Now, still, the men sit on one side of the temple room, and the women sit on the other side, separated. Women never will be allowed to be ordained into the priesthood. In the churches, the priesthood heads up all the women's organizations, and takes charge of all their finances.

If you could read the Mormon scripture, the Doctrine and Covenants, Chapter 132, it's all explained there. I won't date Mormon men for this reason. I was married twice to Mormon men I met at BYU. One beat me, and the other cheated on me.

I'm sure neither one of the couple thinks anything is wrong with the way the wife is being treated. The husband is probably a hero among his Mormon cronies. If you were to approach the wife, she would think she is exceptional in serving her husband. I taught in Relief Society, and most of the lessons for women were on "magnifying the priesthood." The position of subservience in ingrained in Mormon women. Even in Heaven, Mormon women believe that they will be constantly pregnant, giving birth to "spirit children", as one of their husband's MANY POLYGAMOUS WIVES. Mormon men believe they will become Gods someday!

You would be battling against an entire cult, not just one "abusive" husband. I would drop it.

My ex put me in the hospital a few times, but I lied about my injuries, and it was only when he almost killed me, that I finally ran away and got help.

Please keep a written record, though! My neighbors did, and I used that as evidence in my court divorce.

It's very sad. Mormon Utah has the highest use of antidepressants in the nation.

I appreciate your insights, exminion. I'm so sorry that you were a victim of such abuse. From what I've learned on this board, even as a neverMo, none of what you say surprises me, sadly. I believe "Emma" does not see anything wrong with how she is treated, either. As I said in my original post, the only complaint I ever have heard her utter with regard to her situation was her frustration at one point that her husband would not buy her a cell phone. Even in that instance, she didn't seem that upset about it. Her children do not show her respect, either, and I am not talking about the usual misbehavior or occasional backtalk. Even my husband has remarked on the lack of respect Emma's kids show her, and he probably has never spent more than 10 minutes at a time around her and her children. It's just sad to witness.

I do hope you are wrong that Emma's is the typical Mormon marriage nowadays, but you certainly know infinitely more about this topic than I do. :-( Don't worry--based on what everyone has said here, and my initial instincts, I will not be getting involved beyond perhaps keeping a log of anything that seems "off." I will just keep being a supportive friend.

There are many kinds of abuse that can be reported and criminally prosecuted. Domestic Abuse is not just physical abuse.
I highly suggest you become informed of the Domestic Abuse Laws in your state. I presume it is CA. Many different kinds of abuse can and are reportable and prosecuted as criminal. Some include psychological and emotional abuse which can be verbal threats, humiliation, insults, isolation, neglect, stalking, etc.

I don't think her marriage is "typical" of LDS marriages today. Not in my experience, anyhow.
There is an old saying that while the man may be the head of the home, the woman is the one that moves the neck.


Some Info Here: https://statelaws.findlaw.com/california-law/california-spousal-abuse-charges.html

For more info you could call your local Social Services Dept and talk to someone about your concerns and if there is anything you can do.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2018 06:14PM by SusieQ#1.

I don't know how you could convey this to her. Perhaps in a casual conversation with her you could mention how much her friendship means to you and that you are glad you can confide in her. Then tell her she can always confide in you, too. That way, she will know you are in her corner. She might tuck that away in her mind for now, but someday she might really be grateful for your listening ear.

Best advice in the thread. Be a friend, a true friend - something rather rare in mormon culture.

Just be careful. If you are not sure it's abuse that can be acted on and you get authorities involved, you could isolate her further and make things much worse.

I think the issue is, Emma has chosen a life that when viewed by others, is not a life they would choose for themselves. That can be tough to watch. That can make you feel like you should jump in and do something.

I don't see what you described as "abuse". It may not be the best relationship or a life that you would want, but it's Emma's choice, and at this point, she seems to be OK with it, other than a simple complaint or two about a cell phone or used sweater.

As soon as you jump in and get involved on your own, I think you're going too far. If Emma confides in you about real abuse and asks for your support/ help, that's different. At this point you just see a somewhat typical mormon mom/ woman that lives in a very expensive place, has a bunch of kids, and a husband that is a somewhat typical mormon man. Be a friend and offer kindness when you can. That's all.

If you want to start keeping notes, I suppose you could do that, but don't reveal them unless your asked to do so by Emma.

What you described feels a little "busy body" and "mind your own business" to me at this point. I can understand the concern from your view, but I don't think Emma has the same view that you have.

If Emma should be, or become, the victim of domestic violence (assault & battery), she probably will not testify against her husband. But that does not mean he cannot be prosecuted, if there are other witnesses.

Should you hear or otherwise perceive violence is going on in Emma's home, call 911. Get as close to the property as you can, with your own safety and legal access in mind. Pay careful attention to what you see and hear, and relate that to the responding officers. Your complaint of this crime-in-progress constitutes "exigent circumstances," and gives them the right to enter the property without a warrant or permission.

They will then render the scene safe and investigate, taking note of the state of the premises (orderly? messy? broken items in view? etc.), the condition of the household members (crying? bruised? agitated or belligerent? state of clothing? etc.) and make a decision about whether a crime has occurred.

Women like Emma, unfortunately, often refuse to cooperate or testify. But you can! Make sure the officers have your contact information as a witness. Your testimony, combined with what the officers observed and reported, can combine for a successful prosecution. My guess, NeverMo, is that the legal threshold for a conviction in California gives the victim (and prosecutor) much more power than in Utah.

Well, lets see. Student loans, tithing, fast offerings, medical bills, 1 income when 4 incomes are needed in bay area. Thats basic.Oh and 1 car or is it 2? Insurance, gas, mecanical.
So you put a 15 year mortgage on there and saving up for his own company, maybe
and she has a gigantic vegetable garden 2 children and a third in diapers, going to second hand stores, not having a job out ofthe house, he only has 1 job, making him prime max time boy scout material.

Typical bay area mormons trying to live a law that no one else is trying to be. Sound like converts trying to live what everyone else doesnt. 1800 utah mormons living in 2018 bay area. My heart goes out to her.

Anon 3 Wrote:
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> Typical bay area mormons trying to live a law that
> no one else is trying to be. Sound like converts
> trying to live what everyone else doesnt. 1800
> utah mormons living in 2018 bay area. My heart
> goes out to her.

Not converts--I know the husband is of Mormon ancestry going back to pioneer times, and "Emma" was born into the faith (although both of her parents are adult converts, interestingly).

Btw, @Roy G. Biv, I agree completely that my concerns about Emma may come off as "busybody." In all the time I've known her, I'd never even suspected abuse of any kind until my other friend raised the topic and mentioned she's been keeping a log of Emma's comments. Seeing Emma's children wearing shoes literally falling apart and hearing her repeat her husband's constant criticisms of her has always bugged me, but I never thought "abuse." However, this mutual friend of Emma and mine is the furthest thing from a busybody or a gossip--not even close. I know her very well. So, when she brought up the word "abuse" out of the blue and said she is keeping a log, it would be hard for me just to dismiss those concerns. (Still, that doesn't mean her suspicions are correct, I realize.) I hope I don't sound angry or defensive--just trying to explain.

Anyway, thank you again everyone for all of your wise advice and comments. If anything happens in the future which is serious (I hope not), I will post an update.

She's lucky to have you as a friend.

Devoted Exmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She's lucky to have you as a friend.


Thank you.

You don’t know their financial situation or their financial goals. We use to make about a third of what people thought we made and had sooo much debt. We lived frugally, yes sometimes I didn’t like it and would complain.

The thing she says don’t sound like the type of relationship
I’d want but doesn’t mean it’s abusive. He’s surprise at the knowing about camp may be that he has social issues. Be a friend, show support. I would even encourage her to develop skills so her life doesn’t revolve around her husband and kids. Maybe even a way to make some side money. If she asks for help, step in.

My son lives in Mountain View, a modest small fixer upper house from the early 60s will cost you about $2 million currently. Hard to make payments even at $150 K with student loans and other expenses. Don't jump to the conclusion that other people are as well off as you are they may be truly struggling and the husband may be under immense financial pressure. Living in California I find that lots of people who were born here and have reaped the advantages of huge gains in real estate have little concept of what it is like to move here with nothing and make a go of it.

That being said I have seen similar families many times in the Church, I have lived in areas with famous educational institutions and high paying tech jobs. Sometimes it is the only strategy couples with little experience except for living in rural utah or idaho have. Lots of people in tech are not on the normal end of normal social behavior. This goes for husbands as wives who choose them too. Yes I think she is suffering from mental and financial abuse. It's her choice, you can only help, if she asks for it. You can bring things up in conversation, but you may be stunned at how she sees her situation. Have you read Tara Westover's book "Educated", it might give you a little more understanding of rural Mormon culture.

Tara Westover's experience is extreme and not mainstream mormon. I'm not sure what insights it would provide for a family living in Silicon Valley.

Sorry, but I can't begin to see where the abuse is. No one knows what she might say to her husband or if his comment about the Christmas present was entirely joking. This is actually how false abuse allegations arise where "witnesses" think they are taking down evidence that is only self corroborating. Even the longest log of her comments doesn't make them true.

The financial situation seems not even close to financial abuse. He works; she chose to be a stay at home mom. (Adults do chose, just because he's male or a certain religion doesn't mean he made her stay at home or have so many children.) He's managed to buy a home for his family, works in a high stress industry, commutes no doubt, and seems responsible in other areas of life. How is it financial abuse to take on the financial responsibility of a family?

We don't know if he pays off her student loans (this happens a lot more than we think if a wife gets loans for school then has kids--husband pays them), or his own loans, or loans from parents who helped with a down payment on a house, or medical bills because they were not insured at some point, etc. We can pretty much assume that if he knows the value of education, perhaps they've arranged to save some money for the kids college fund. Plus $150 for a family of six doesn't sound like a lot of money.

My advice is don't look into other people's relationships to assume abuse. Relationships seem abusive to other people that really do not qualify for that term. Relationships involved refining ourselves and showing our best and worst parts. That's why they're PRIVATE.

I find these threads demeaning to women.

Women are supposedly the same as men in ability, yet many assume they are weak and abused and are helpless in their situation.

Reality is there is a spectrum of personalities in men and women, from timid to aggressive. When a more timid person is paired with a stronger person, it appears as abuse.
Happens in the workplace or wherever. You can tell the timid to be strong, but it is hard.

And the timid often cling to the strong to get benefits of money, or more resources, or to get more services they deserve, or whatever. Which is why you can often "rescue" a supposedly abused person and they go right back. They are getting something from the deal.

We take a few stories of abuse by church men and conclude, therefore, that church men are jerks and abusive because of their priesthood. Problem with that is we don't hear as much about abused men, as they are ashamed.

Several studies have shown that through society, women are just as likely to abuse men. I doubt that changes much in the church, as genetics and personalities aren't much different.

I've seen plenty of demanding women in the church, in many ways. You don't need the priesthood to be in charge.

Among my TBM relatives, I've seen my brother running from his house to escape from a screaming wife. My mom argued constantly with my dad. My sisters are no slouches. Nephew and cousin divorced by TBM wives because they wanted more money.

So, yeah, I wouldn't feel too sorry for this lady. She's getting benefits, just like people who put up with a crappy job. She is free to leave. Just because it would be hard to leave is no excuse - that applies to everything.

And he may control money, but she likely controls sex, perhaps abusive to him in that regard. Maybe you should talk to him about it.

http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/

SUMMARY: According to a 2010 national survey by the Centers for Disease Control and Department of Justice, in the last 12 months more men than women were victims of intimate partner physical violence and over 40% of severe physical violence was directed at men. Men were also more often the victim of psychological aggression and control over sexual or reproductive health. Despite this, few services are available to male victims of intimate partner violence.

Thank you. Well stated. BTW, I'm female. :)

This link from the CDC says the opposite of what your link says:

https://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_FactSheet-a.pdf

Summary:

"Overall, lifetime and one year estimates for sexual
violence, stalking and intimate partner violence were
alarmingly high for adult Americans; with IPV alone
affecting more than 12 million people each year. Women
are disproportionately impacted."