Mr. McConkie was quite the character. I was an older child in 1980. I've read this speech a few times wondering what he was talking about? Were Mormons back then really caught up in these Mormon heresies?

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie_seven-deadly-heresies/

I've commented under Bruce's words commenting on how absurd these truly are to me in my experience as a Mormon. I don't think as a believer I harbored much of this thinking. Did you?

"Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths."

"Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly. Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being who has presided in our universe for almost 2,555,000,000 years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow—why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my comprehension."

LOL! An infinite being "presiding" for a couple billion years? Seriously? I don't remember being taught he was still learning stuff. Were you?

"Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized."

"My reasoning causes me to conclude that if death has always prevailed in the world, then there was no fall of Adam that brought death to all forms of life; that if Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement; that if there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, and no eternal life; and that if there was no atonement, there is nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. I believe that the Fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself, and that the Atonement affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself."

I was taught evolutionary theories were false and of The World. No one ever preached them or espoused them that I knew. Nowadays I hear Mormons all the time saying they can reconcile evolution thinking and their beliefs. It wasn't even entertained when I was a believer even a couple decades ago. How about you?

"Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually."

"Baptism is a gate; celestial marriage is a gate."

What pray tell in "the penalty"? Anyone know? And how many "gates" are there to get to those pearly ones? Jeez, anyone told or taught that their sealing was the same as a "Second Anointing"?

"Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation."

"Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom."

So old gentile Uncle Bob who vehemently denied "the gospel" when he was alive doesn't need anything other than baptism for the dead?

What is the church's position on Uncle Bob? Just process him like all the other names?

"Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were."

"They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere."

I think this was called "multiple mortalities" and I heard my parents talking about it in the 80s. I think some people believed it. I didn't because it sounded like reincarnation to me which I knew wasn't "the gospel." It was mostly "mysteries" Mormons who were looking for converts to their versions of Mormon crazy and these people eventually became polygamists I think or at least were excommunicated.

"Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship."

"We worship the Father, in the name of the Son, by the power of the Holy Ghost; and Adam is their foremost servant, by whom the peopling of our planet was commenced."

This one cracks me up. No one believed it or taught it that I experienced because I didn't know about it until I was an adult and then I learned my ancestor Brigham actually taught it as "the gospel." IT was definitely a HUGE shelf item when I learned that fact.

"Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation."

"This is not really a great heresy, only a doctrinal misunderstanding that I mention here in order to help round out our discussion and to turn our attention from negative to positive things."

Not a "great heresy"??? I was taught this all the time. Of these heresies of Bruce Almighty this was "The One" that everyone took as "the gospel." How about you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2018 02:36PM by Elder Berry.

1. "Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths."

I don't know for sure but I suppose that I did believe this heresy in some manner.

Bruce R's view here has some real questionable implications for our free will. If God can somehow know what our future actions will be based on some kind of higher version of a predictive algorithm, do we really have free will? It's an open question worthy of debate. The future is unfolding and emerging--how can anyone really know it--even God?

2. "Heresy two concerns itself with the relationship between organic evolution and revealed religion and asks the question whether they can be harmonized."

Yes. From about 18 years old on, I basically accepted the ancient earth and biological evolution as essentially correct. There were "good" LDS folks like Henry Eyring (the scientist, not his crying son), who openly accepted evolution too, so I thought I was outside the Bruce McConkie mainstream, but still ok. Oh, I thought I was a rebel...

Still, I chaffed about the Gospel Doctrine manuals, because the Bruce McConkie point of view was all that was presented. Later, I began to be disturbed that no General Authority--even those who accepted evolution--had the guts to get up and say so. Even though, Mr. McConkie thought thought he could get up and declare the other side of a disputed point as though it were the gospel truth from Elohim's lips. I guess that taught me that liberal Mormonism was too gutless to matter.

3. "Heresy three: There are those who say that temple marriage assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples married in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually."

No. But, what if we put it this way:

Heresy three: There are those who say that a SECOND ANOINTING assures us of an eventual exaltation. Some have supposed that couples RECEIVED THEIR SECOND ANOINTING in the temple who commit all manner of sin, and who then pay the penalty, will gain their exaltation eventually.

Bruce, Bruce, Bruce...

4. "Heresy four: There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation."

I vacillated on this, but I understand Brother Bruce's desire to keep people on the hell hook so that he can wield his authority over them.


5. "Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were."

Not really. I guess I was told that we can't be sure about this, so just get your Celestial Kingdom membership now while they last. Hell hook again. They can't control you if you think you can get free of damnation without the church.

6. "Heresy six: There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our god, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship."

I didn't really know this was a thing until I really started to do the study that would lead me into full raging tea drinking apostasy--but who is Bruce McConkie to overrule Brigham Young?

They are both lunatics--but just say'n.

7. "Heresy seven: There are those who believe we must be perfect to gain salvation."

Boyd Packer did that talk about justice and mercy where Christ appeared to play the role of a credit counseling and debt service company that would restructure your debt. Mormon doctrines always seem to want to leave you on the hell hook somehow. Nobody ever just says--you are forgiven--end of story!

snowball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. "Heresy one: There are those who say that God
> is progressing in knowledge and is learning new
> truths."
>
> I don't know for sure but I suppose that I did
> believe this heresy in some manner.
>
> Bruce R's view here has some real questionable
> implications for our free will. If God can
> somehow know what our future actions will be based
> on some kind of higher version of a predictive
> algorithm, do we really have free will? It's an
> open question worthy of debate. The future is
> unfolding and emerging--how can anyone really know
> it--even God?
>...

What I was taught (albeit in a different "Mormonism") is
that Jehovah is all-knowing. He knows ALL that has ever
happened, ALL that happens in this very instant, and ALL
that will occur, anywhere in the Universe, forever.

Thus, I might ask whether or not a cosmic ray, hitting
a certain spot on a certain planet, ten million years
from now, will split a certain molecule into its bits
of component atoms -- or, whether that cosmic ray will
pass through that particular atom, leaving no effect?

The enigmatic reply from the High Priest: "God knows..."

Unk

God knows in quantum mechanics how (or whether) wave function collapse occurs and yet he is made up of atoms and internal bodily functions. He can fart near Kolob and entangle a fig tree so that it collapses in The Holy Land.

1. Personally I did not believe that perfect God could learn new things but I did have a Sunday school teacher who believed this "heresy number 1". Most members (that I recall) did not believe it but some actually did.

2. Evolution was of the Devil. This was the opinion ... sorry, the knowledge of all my church leaders, teachers, friends etc. (in the 70's and 80's). Later on (in the 90's) I changed my mind but did not tell it at church.

3. I remember that this "heresy" was accepted by some church members I knew and they based their believe on this verse:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God." DC 132:26
But those who believed thus were not vocal about it and it was through personal conversations that I found out about their beliefs, not at church meetings.

4. Actually I know quite a few members who think that it is possible to repent after dead.

5. Personally I did not believe this but knew some members who did (e.g. the before mentioned Sunday school teacher).

6. I think that Bruce was directing this at fundamentalists
(polygamists) who teach this doctrine. I was told that Adam-God "doctrine" was a nasty antimormon lie and did not believe that B.Y. ever taught it. Oh how I was wrong.

Thanks, that was a most interesting reply.

My 1960s BYU zoology general ed class covered evolution quite matter-of-factly. I figutpred if Dr Murphy didn't have a problem with it, I didn't need to have a problem with it either.

Anyone else taught Evolution in McDonkey's time at BYU?

How McKonkie was such an expert on these or any questions of the afterlife puzzles me. McKonkie was schooled as a lawyer, so he should have stuck with that craft, the way Oaks is doing it now. Big explanations with really careful words for simple ideas. No one gets confused with Oaks. He doesn't pretend to have some great insight.

If they are going to get into the deep stuff then they should at least have academic credentials like a baptist pastor would. Packer was the only one in recent memory who had actually had a career in CES.

McKonkie also went really deep into the idea that Abraham and the patriarchs are right now creating worlds and making spirit/physical babies from intelligence. They are suppose to be off in some other existence ruling their kingdoms right now.

(which I think is nonsense)

At least part of his motivation was as a power play. Comic Milton Berle (look it up) could never let somebody else in the room be funnier than he was. McConkie could not stand it if someone else got more attention for expounding on doctrine.

Every single one of these "heresies" were declared as 100% the Mind and Will of God by some other General Authority. The general membership did not simply make them up in a vacuum.

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every single one of these "heresies" were declared
> as 100% the Mind and Will of God by some other
> General Authority.

I remember hearing about this speech as a child and wondering that while he had pointed out some heretics in my ward, the vast majority of my sphere looked upon those people as looney. My father was one of them for a time and I think got tired of being considered not "mainstream."

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every single one of these "heresies" were declared
> as 100% the Mind and Will of God by some other
> General Authority.

Yup. I'm guessing the "those who say" were his fellow GAs, plus nearly everyone in CES.

As I've said before, there was a time when the church was 100% certain of all sorts of things, most of which they now disavow or just don't talk about. As GBH said, "I don't know that we teach that."

Of course, McConkie got slapped around for writing "Mormon Doctrine," so who was he to say what was heretical?

olderelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Of course, McConkie got slapped around for writing
> "Mormon Doctrine," so who was he to say what was
> heretical?

Excellent point! Seriously the least qualified of their quorum then to give a speech like that.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Heresy five: There are those who say that there
> is progression from one kingdom to another in the
> eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually
> progress to where higher kingdoms once were."
>
> "They neither progress from one kingdom to
> another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a
> higher kingdom once was. Whatever eternal
> progression there is, it is within a sphere."

I was taught this in Sunday School, that resurrected beings could/would progress through the kingdoms but could never attain the highest level in the Celestial kingdom and go on to become gods unless they were assigned there to begin with at judgment day. This was mid- to late-90s in western Washington.

I think I had a Sunday School teacher tell me as much. Multiple Mortalities was quite en vongue for the crazy set in the 80s.

I joined the church as a kid before he famously gave his last testimony. I recall many of the items in the talk you mentioned being discussed in meetings. I did not understand the significance at the time.

I realize now that there is only one heresy: thinking for yourself.

Whenever I hear some give a long explanation that follows the pattern "if 'a' is true then 'b' must be true and since we all agree that 'b' is undesirable then 'a' is clearly not possible" my BS alarm rings. I am no logical expert, but his arguments seem to be flawed.

He truly has a dizzying intellect...

Lowpriest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He truly has a dizzying intellect...

Do you think he is their one and only Mormon Apologist Apostle?

I suppose I never thought of him as an apologist. To me, an apologist tries to reconcile differences and turn nonsense into reason.

BRM seemed to exude an appeal to authority. He was a bully. I put him in the same category as JR Holland, ME Petersen or BK Packer. Each one is angry and intolerant. They are right because they say so.

If you don't believe them, just ask them. They will tell you how it is.

My sarcasm about his intellect applies to many others who shared his arrogance.

AH's every one.

Good point. Mormon Doctrine seemed to me somewhat apologetic. I might be totally off base.

Yes, McConkie appealed to authority. His own! He appeared at a missionary conference and after his talk, was opened to questions. My companion, who had an unfortunate perpetual smirk, asked on what authority Bruce had made a statement during his talk. Bruce thundered out, "On my own!". Last question, and none of the missionaries wanted to talk to the apostle in the conversations after the close of the conference. Bruce wandered around disconsolately for a few minutes with no one talking to him and then disappeared. What a guy!

Just like Jesus Christ! Not. At least people would talk to him.

Lowpriest Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> He truly has a dizzying intellect...



Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

Morons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2018 03:09PM by fossilman.

Is "dizzying intellect" praise or condemnation?

Because it can be like, "Trying to follow his contorted logic, ungrounded assertions and erroneous facts made me dizzy." Or, "What a dizzying pile of horse shit!" In those cases, McConkie's intellect was dizzying. :)