How do mormons escape the same fate, I wonder:

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-russia-jehovahs-witnesses-2018-htmlstory.html#

3X Wrote:
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> How do mormons escape the same fate, I wonder:

LDS Corp is good at keeping countries it has made an incursion and wants to keep in the good graces. See East Germany example. Money is probably a factor as well.

My guess is that Mormons do not have the heavy prohibition on Military service, and loyalty to the government. The issue here has nothing to do with cults, but rather the organization is encouraging members to disobey the law

That's interesting. It used to be Jews fleeing Russia to escape the pogroms. Now it's JW?

Well at least the Jews forbid proselytizing. They don't market their religion like the JW does.

потому что Вечный благоволит к Своему народу и возвеличивает смиренных, спасая их.

Илья́ Алекса́ндрович (Ilya Alexandrovich) Wrote:
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> потому что Вечный
> благоволит к Своему народу
> и возвеличивает смиренных,
> спасая их.

Google translation: "because the Eternal is pleased with His people and exalts the humble, saving them."



...but I don't get the context here... With whom does Ilya believe "the Eternal" is pleased? And are "His people" and "the humble" the same group or two distinct groups?

Russia is making a mistake here. Just because some Christians don't want to serve in the military? A lot of people all over the world don't want to do that.

And knocking on doors to do christian services isn't a reason to get thrown out of a country. The Russians have a history over the centuries of throwing a lot of hate on different kinds of people, and it's been to their detriment in almost every situation.

It's all about Fascism loyalty to the party, and don't be too smart either.

From the article:

"In the 16 months since Russia’s Supreme Court banned Jehovah’s Witnesses as an extremist group on par with Islamic State, raids and arrests of the religion’s estimated 175,000 members in the country have increased rapidly."

Govt overreach - Label a person or entity extremist to justify a vicious crackdown. Then their rights can be trampled. Scary!



“The legal reasoning in the court ruling was that the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization asserts this supremacy of their interpretation of the Bible and the superiority of their religion over others,” Denber said. “But find me a religion that doesn’t do that.”

Obviously each religious group believes in their particular interpretation of scripture and that their doctrines are correct. They may or may not mesh with interpretations, practices and beliefs of other groups, as we see.


Interestingly, the article refers to JWs as a Christian group. They are not, according to mainstream Christians (mainly for not believing in the Trinity).

True enough that JWs do not stand for the national anthem, vote or join a military fighting force. They will serve as medics/ambulance drivers/other "pacifist" positions. The anthem and voting beliefs are based on their doctrine to be "not of this world" (scripture) and belief that they shouldn't take part in earthly governments (for instance you'd never see a JW standing for office or at a political rally).

There is nothing sinister about that. If you understand their reasons.

Cherish democracy is all I can say. And freedom for all, even if we disagree with them. If the basic rights of others are protected so then are our own.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2018 02:33PM by Nightingale.

Nightingale Wrote:
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> Cherish democracy is all I can say. And freedom
> for all, even if we disagree with them. If the
> basic rights of others are protected so then are
> our own.

So hard sometimes but so true. Like always, you descend on a thread like an angel.

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> Like always, you descend on a thread like an angel.

Wow, EB. You're a poet.

You have NO idea how good it is to read something positive directed towards me today. Long hard week, month, year, future perhaps.

Many people don't think about expressing appreciation at all for anything.

It's constantly amazing to me how great this community can be, and even that it is a community, when most of us have never met and likely won't. But we have a lot in common, putting the "comm" in community, ha.

I know it's not the best idea to quote scripture here but I do often think of one of my favourite Proverbs: "A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver".

We never know when we may speak a fit word to a fellow traveller. So mostly I try to make sure all mine are "fit". But don't expect too much. I'm only human.

Apples of gold though. Nice when they are sent out into the ether. Hopefully to be a good influence all over the place.

"Many people don't think about expressing appreciation at all for anything."

I'm trying to be better. I've noticed that while many extol the virtue of thanking God and being grateful to God, they have a way worse track record for regular people.

Gratitude is wisdom expressed through kind words. It may take more age to appreciate that form.

"It's constantly amazing to me how great this community can be, and even that it is a community, when most of us have never met and likely won't. But we have a lot in common, putting the "comm" in community, ha."

Me too. We put the "comm" in community here where Mormons put their "con" into their community by adding the con's continuity to their community.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2018 05:23PM by Elder Berry.

Not sure I was clear enough - I rush too much these days and don't think as much before posting. Guaranteed to get you in trouble that will.

I had previously said:

> "Many people don't think about expressing appreciation at all for anything."

I wasn't referring to people in this forum. Meant people all over everywhere. Not exempting myself. Sometimes it's easier to complain, and more habit-forming, than to recognize a positive.

I enjoyed your tongue-twister, EB (comm/con). Had to read it three times though. Must be too tired. :)

Can't wait to crawl into bed with my newest mystery, fan on, book ready, snack at hand, still in the middle of what we call a heat wave here - high 80s. I've already read the last few chapters of my book first so I don't have to get scared at midnight. Big clue: It wasn't the butler. (There is no butler). It's often the obligatory crooked cop. There is a crooked cop in this story but he's not a murderer. Or it's the boyfriend. I didn't want it to be the boyfriend this time. (And it's not, whew!)

So, yeah. That's my crazy night all planned out. Fan. Book. Treat. Speaking of gratitude, I won't complain. Hey, no matter what I've always got a book and that makes me happy. Sometimes non-fiction is good but not usually for me at bedtime. Unless it's the one about the Irish radio lady who goes back home to build a house so she and her English husband can retire to her hometown. That was a good one. Man, they went to a lot of parties. I feel virtuous reading non-fiction but still I pile up the action fiction to keep the blood stirring. And it's so different from my real life it's actually relaxing for me. Likely not quite what the authors had in mind, ha.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2018 12:48AM by Nightingale.

At least it is real vicariousness. Dead work is deadly vicariousness.

Nightingale Wrote:
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> There is nothing sinister about that. If you
> understand their reasons.

I understand their reasons.
I do, though, think it's "sinister."
And more than that...it's shooting themselves in their collective feet.

Think about it: Hey, we're not going to play any part in government, and we're never going to vote!

...then...

How awful this government treats us horribly! Somebody should do something about it!

Yeah, like vote to establish religious freedoms?

Oops.

I just felt like saying that. It means absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

Hie: Why do you say that the pacifism of the JWs is sinister?

You said:

"Think about it: Hey, we're not going to play any part in government, and we're never going to vote!"

I don't see that as sinister. So maybe I'm just needlessly quarrelling over a word. I know a lot of people don't care for pacifism - what if there's a war and all hands are needed on deck, kind of thing. I get that.

Hie goes on:

"How awful this government treats us horribly! Somebody should do something about it!

"Yeah, like vote to establish religious freedoms?"

I never heard a JW say that. True enough, my sample size is miniscule.

We do become complacent here in Canada as freedom abounds, for most of us. Careful though - we can see that is not 100% guaranteed into perpetuity (to my surprise as I have been naive about that, assuming that "we all" share common values which won't change no matter what else happens. Uhhhh...).

JWs in WWII, for instance, did go to war. As I said, they served in non-combat roles, also a necessary and valuable contribution. Many were imprisoned by opposing forces and mistreated (understatement), some unto death. They didn't whine or retract their stance or expect any human to rescue them.

So, sinister? No, not the way I see it. Whiny about wanting help in a pinch? No, don't think so.

In my own personal experience (again, admittedly on a small and sheltered stage) JWs took seriously their belief in staying apart from "the world". They didn't ask for outside help. Who knows what would happen, though, if all hell were to break loose - I get that. Easy enough to stick to one's program when all things are equal.

That was one of the main reasons I began to ask questions. I was fortunate to have a head start on that due to not having been brought up as a JW. I wasn't altogether isolated, as so many of them can be, as my family weren't JWs and I had work friends who also were not. I had a point of reference pre-JW, IOW, which was crucial in not sinking too deep into the mire. When JW leadership speaks (so much) about not being "part of the world" they are usually referring mainly to "worldly" (lack of) values or "immorality" which they regularly issue dire warnings against. I had a non-JW love interest at one point - tricky that - but it can help to stay afloat. To me, the literal being apart was not so much a strict injunction. No way was I not going to associate with work friends and my family. And I wanted to be part of community events and charitable endeavours. That type of "being part of" didn't seem like a bad thing to me.

Fortunately, I managed to walk the fine line, until I didn't want to do it any more. And I chose "the world" but in a positive way.

Still, as I've said, I enjoyed being a JW way more than being in the Mormon Church. More friends. Fewer negative or hurtful experiences. Until the end.

The end can bite in both groups.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2018 01:09AM by Nightingale.

Meant to say that re staying apart, especially 100% non-involvement in govt/politics, that also serves to keep their people isolated, of course. But it feels OK if you believe in it. The world does its thing and you're just not involved. Governments come and go. God is forever. :)

If you believe, as I did for quite a while, that everything in the world is working out according to God's plan (as the scripture appears to say) you can be surprisingly relaxed and accepting of whatever comes. So it would be a waste of energy to try and change things if they were supposed to be that way, right? Because 99.9% of your focus is on Armageddon. As they said to me, "we won't need nurses in the New World" (Paradise on Earth) so if I hadn't been so intent on following in Nurse Nightingale's footsteps it would have been easy to just give it up. Less effort. More time to knock on AmyJo's door. {{jk}}

Because I don't think it's "pacifism" at all.

I think it's "passivism." As in not doing anything in "the world." You know, the place where JWs actually live, along with everyone else...

It's a holier-than-thou attitude. It's haughty and arrogant.

And if they aren't going to participate in the workings of society, then it's hard to feel any sympathy for them when things don't turn out the way they want to.

Keeping a society "free" takes work. It doesn't just happen. They want to sit back, do nothing, pretend they're more holy than everyone else, but still reap the benefits of the hard work other people do to make society work.

I find that both sinister and idiotic.

A part of me understands why another country might wish to draw a line in the sand when it comes to tolerating some whack-a-doodle American cult, especially when that cult appears to do more harm than good.

summer Wrote:
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> ... especially when that cult appears to do more harm than good.

When not out knocking on doors (not sure if the JWs in Russia even do that) JWs tend to keep themselves quite apart from general society, in my experience. There are so many rules to observe and the easiest way to do that is to avoid mingling with non-JWs, thereby also avoiding {{shudder}} "temptation".

But if you can't stand for the anthem, aren't involved in politics, must avoid magic (Harry Potter anyone?), don't want to hear cussing or see "porn" and definitely must not date or fall in love with a non-member, then life can be fairly complicated. Avoidance gets baked into your faith practice.

I'm not sure but I imagine this approach to life would tend to keep JWs quite under the radar, if not invisible, except for their mostly quiet (at least here in Canada) preaching efforts. I wouldn't think they would seek to rock any boats in a country like Russia.

"In the 16 months since Russia’s Supreme Court banned Jehovah’s Witnesses as an extremist group on par with Islamic State, raids and arrests of the religion’s estimated 175,000 members in the country have increased rapidly. The ruling criminalized practicing the religion and ordered its 395 branches closed. Members face prosecution for doing missionary work, a fundamental part of the faith."

Well, I guess this means that the Mormons aren't the only religious group that suffers persecution.

While I am not a fan of the JWs, this is a restriction on personal freedom by the state.