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http://www.deseretnews.com/top/3088/4/Witness-of-Jesus-Christ-13-little-known-facts-about-Joseph-Smith.html - 'fact' (ahem!) number 4 implies 'Jehovah' is the same as 'Jesus' in LDS theology. Am I right? Any other sources?
"Joseph Smith saw Jesus Christ at least 10 times....Dec. 18, 1833: Joseph saw Jehovah appear to Adam"
"Joseph Smith saw Jesus Christ at least 10 times....Dec. 18, 1833: Joseph saw Jehovah appear to Adam"
Yeah, definitely. Same guy in Mormon theology.
In LDS theology, God and Jesus are two separate entities, and Jesus is Jehovah / God of the OT.
In traditional Christian theology (which can get blurry at times), God and Jesus are the same Triune God, which makes Jesus responsible for the OT actions of god as well.
I've never really understood this complaint leveled at LDS theology. While there are a few different roads you can take, you end up at the same place -- Jesus as (part of) the God of the OT.
In traditional Christian theology (which can get blurry at times), God and Jesus are the same Triune God, which makes Jesus responsible for the OT actions of god as well.
I've never really understood this complaint leveled at LDS theology. While there are a few different roads you can take, you end up at the same place -- Jesus as (part of) the God of the OT.
Yep, in what passes for mormon "theology," they're the same.
YHWH, the bloodthirsty tribal war god of the OT Hebrews, is the same as "good and gentle" Jesus.
Not the same as in "three in one" trinity stuff, but the same as in a separate dude from "god," who was charged by his celestial daddy to make the world and the first two humans 6,000 years ago, then mark one guy and all his posterity with a curse of black skin, then wipe out nearly all humans in a flood because he screwed up making them, then come "in the flesh" later on to sacrifice himself to big daddy.
It's just batshit crazy. All of it, not just the mormons.
YHWH, the bloodthirsty tribal war god of the OT Hebrews, is the same as "good and gentle" Jesus.
Not the same as in "three in one" trinity stuff, but the same as in a separate dude from "god," who was charged by his celestial daddy to make the world and the first two humans 6,000 years ago, then mark one guy and all his posterity with a curse of black skin, then wipe out nearly all humans in a flood because he screwed up making them, then come "in the flesh" later on to sacrifice himself to big daddy.
It's just batshit crazy. All of it, not just the mormons.
Hope this is correct , been a while . B of M 29:11 vs. Book of Acts 3:13 .
i remember John Larson on Mormon expression saying something about how, at one time, elohim, jehovah, jesus, and Michael were all 4 different gods, and Michael was the one "with whom we have to do." Elohim was the most High God, the Head God, or God of all other gods.
I don't know. It's all very confusing. I'm sure if you went back to the Brigham era and asked around there would be a slightly different understanding of Deity in each member.
Nothing about Deity was standardized––such as Jehovah = Jesus-- until the Joseph F. Smith era, when Talmage wrote Jesus the Christ and the First Presidency released their exposition entitled "The Father and the Son."
At least, that's how I understand it all currently.
I don't know. It's all very confusing. I'm sure if you went back to the Brigham era and asked around there would be a slightly different understanding of Deity in each member.
Nothing about Deity was standardized––such as Jehovah = Jesus-- until the Joseph F. Smith era, when Talmage wrote Jesus the Christ and the First Presidency released their exposition entitled "The Father and the Son."
At least, that's how I understand it all currently.
Cold-Dodger Wrote:
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> i remember John Larson on Mormon expression saying
> something about how, at one time, elohim, jehovah,
> jesus, and Michael were all 4 different gods, and
> Michael was the one "with whom we have to do."
> Elohim was the most High God, the Head God, or God
> of all other gods.
Yeah, one big problem with that: "Elohim" isn't a name. "El" is, and it was the name of the "head" god of the Canaanite pantheon of gods. "Elohim" is plural, and is the word used for all of the "gods" in the pantheon, essentially including El, his female consort, and all his sons/daughters (none of which is "Jesus"). Smith and Young didn't know enough about Canaanite/early Hebrew history to realize that he gave "god the father" a plural name which refers to a Canaanite god -- not even to "Yahweh" (though the Hebrews later *assigned* the name "El" to their "Yahweh" as they moved from the Canaanite pantheon idea of Yahweh as one of many gods to the most powerful of the gods to the only god over a period of many hundreds of years).
-------------------------------------------------------
> i remember John Larson on Mormon expression saying
> something about how, at one time, elohim, jehovah,
> jesus, and Michael were all 4 different gods, and
> Michael was the one "with whom we have to do."
> Elohim was the most High God, the Head God, or God
> of all other gods.
Yeah, one big problem with that: "Elohim" isn't a name. "El" is, and it was the name of the "head" god of the Canaanite pantheon of gods. "Elohim" is plural, and is the word used for all of the "gods" in the pantheon, essentially including El, his female consort, and all his sons/daughters (none of which is "Jesus"). Smith and Young didn't know enough about Canaanite/early Hebrew history to realize that he gave "god the father" a plural name which refers to a Canaanite god -- not even to "Yahweh" (though the Hebrews later *assigned* the name "El" to their "Yahweh" as they moved from the Canaanite pantheon idea of Yahweh as one of many gods to the most powerful of the gods to the only god over a period of many hundreds of years).
DD told me that at BTUI she was taught Jesus was a demi-god because he was part god and part human. Like Achilles in Greek myth.
Yes, and when it looks like they're not, mormons claim "divine investiture," which means either God or Jesus can talk like the other and get away with it.
Joseph Smith did NOT believe Jesus = Jehovah. Look at his early writings, and some of his prayers. He prays to Jehovah (God) lots of times. It was not until the early 1900, and specifically Talmage’s “Jesus the Christ” that put Jesus=Jehovah firmly in the category of Doctrine. (Ref: Line Upon Line, Essays on Mormon Doctrine, pp 35-48
LDS teaches Jehovah and Jesus are the same. Based on the supposed first vision of God the Father, the Son, Jesus Christ appearing to JS according to revised church history.
The initial version had him only seeing one personage, Almighty God. It was several versions later that broke it down into two personages.
When we pray, (as Mormon teachings go,) we pray to God the Father, through his son, Jesus Christ, in the name of Jesus Christ, and then close with an "Amen."
Christ is intercessor, in Mormon theology, between us and God.
Our big brother, and best friend.
I still see him that way despite being out of Mormonism for years. I still pray to him pretty much the same as I always have only I leave out the Mormon faith beliefs in both prayers and faith. So much of that has shaped who I am, despite my having left LDS years ago....
The initial version had him only seeing one personage, Almighty God. It was several versions later that broke it down into two personages.
When we pray, (as Mormon teachings go,) we pray to God the Father, through his son, Jesus Christ, in the name of Jesus Christ, and then close with an "Amen."
Christ is intercessor, in Mormon theology, between us and God.
Our big brother, and best friend.
I still see him that way despite being out of Mormonism for years. I still pray to him pretty much the same as I always have only I leave out the Mormon faith beliefs in both prayers and faith. So much of that has shaped who I am, despite my having left LDS years ago....