The whole Mormon experience. It was pretty awful. My other thread was closed due to use of the other bad “g” word, with which I respectfully disagree but chalk up to overworked mods. My bad. The questions remain. Existential questions. Questions of what is the self and what is God, and what is the best way to navigate both worlds.

The fundamental problem with recovery is that Mormonism had “some” answers. It produced tangible results that can’t be waved away. Priesthood blessings worked. So the run-and-hide approach to addressing these phenomena only produces more confusion. I think my best explanation still stands. Any mystical benefits of Mormonism, regardless of their reality, can be had for much cheaper elsewhere. If all roads lead to God, why is the toll so high and the ride so bumpy?

I hate to say it, I mean I really hate for crypt keeper Nelson to be right, but maybe intuition really is our best bet in bringing about the best possible future. The devil is in the details, which fortunately dooms the LDS enterprise, but that doesn’t make it a bad practice.

The proof is in the pudding, in a Bill Cosby kind of way. TSCC was some bad luvin, but then there’s the hangover.

I never saw priesthood blessings work.

Consider yourself lucky. Imagine the mind screw you’d be in for integrating that with Joseph’s follies. Anointing tech goes way back. Joe was clever enough to adopt it, repackage it, and sell it back to you at a highly inflated price.

So to try and bring my rambling thread back on topic, as painful as Mormonism was, I’m glad it happened. My happy Mormon train wreck and massive clusterfuck made me who I am today. If God wanted the church to have an enemy, he did a great job creating one. Once again, God comes through.

When did I start this, 2011? Man, what a ride. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemies. Seven years to get to this point. I’ve learned so much. About life, about myself, about thinking. Critical thinking cuts both ways, which makes for difficult recovery. Nobody can tell you how to think. So now I look back and ask is that all you got? That’s why I can blow off death, because after Mormonism it’s so much child’s play. I have seen hell, and its smiling face is Mormonism.

Though I suspect my victory will be short lived. Mormonism as I lived it is already collapsing under its own weight. You might say it’s already gone. I was here for it, so maybe it was kinda special. That time that will never happen again, I was there. And who am I to judge God? Or be bitter on how it all went down?

Now is the big shebang. Not the future, not the past. God, no god, all semantic games. I learned how to really love. Out of walls a mile high, it took my exit from Mormonism to burn them to the ground. There’s nothing to resent. It’s all a love story. A poem to ourselves.

Crowns of glory, wings of light.
Phoenix ashes taking flight.
Love and light are all I see,
When my heart and mind are free.

Free at last, free at last. Thank God almighty, I’m free at last.

I never saw priesthood blessings work either.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The whole Mormon experience. It was pretty awful.

You seem to neglect to include the individual experience and most importantly, PERCEPTION.

Whatever one believes about anything is REALITY.

There is not a static, always/never, 'This Is Mormon' experience for humans.

We get to choose what we believe. For freeeee!! Isn't that extraordinary? We can choose a thought. We can even hold seemingly contradictory thoughts simultaneously! We can (get this): choose a completely opposite thought of our own volitian AT ANY TIME! For freeee!!

And! We can keep choosing thoughts. Anytime we like! We can shift, we can change, we can hold thoughts like bubbles before they go POP! We can hold ideas lightly, easily, and juggle them like clementines until we tire and just want to zone out for a bit.

No one can rent out our minds unless we give them the key.

It is a beautiful life.

Mormonism was not free for me.
I'm better off though for the experience. Some would say that I'm bitter over it. That's not true;cynical maybe.
The cost of that experience was way too high. Many years of my life trying to live it, marriages,relationships, years of full tithing.
Would I do it again? Hell no.

The question, surely, is whether you or I are better off as a result of the Mormon experience than if we had chosen other experiences.

Speaking for myself, I would have been better off with other experiences. For me Mormonism was a net loss.

After all that, a loss? Is this what these animals did to you? If ever there was a prophet, it was Bill Hicks. It’s just a ride. The ride of a lifetime for sure, but a ride. So much drama over a ride. I had to lose me to find me. If I had it to do over, I wouldn’t change a thing. If you haven’t seen the Hicks bit, you must. It’s certainly relevant to the present time. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KgzQuE1pR1w

Life isn't just a ride.

It's not a ride for someone whose life was cut short in Nazi camps, nor for Palestinians in refugee camps, nor for children who are abused by Catholic or Mormon clergy; it was not a ride for Matthew Shepherd. To say otherwise is to trivialize human suffering--and that, that is a sin.

Everyone is free, of course, to define "the good life" however she wants. But for me the standard is how much of my potential for happiness did I fulfill; did I love my family and friends and community as much as possible; and did I develop, and exercise, the greatest possible influence for good? I believe that in many ways--not the least is wasted time--Mormonism limited what I could achieve. I have fallen short in part because of the burdens and misguidance inherent in the religion.

In the cryptic words of Judic West, "if I hadn't been Mormon I would have been something else."

“To say otherwise is to trivialize human suffering--and that, that is a sin.”

I could be guilty of fetishizing suffering, but I think I’m past that. I suffered immensely under the Mormon recovery process, but I decided to be grateful for it. That was very effective. In contrast, Mormonism gave me joyful moments when in reality I was screwing myself. Is suffering bad? Is happiness good? Would I suffer more? That’s God’s business. I impose no limits.

There’s so much suffering in the world. How does God feel about it? Would he/she allow it if it weren’t absolutely necessary? Keeping in mind that “God” is a semantic placeholder for the transcendental “us”. This whole thing is rigged top to bottom. To me, it’s divine perfection. That’s not to say there’s an excuse for suffering. Obviously it should be minimized. I’m just saying injustice is an illusion. Nobody gets away with anything. Either that or there’s just the material world, which is a non-starter.

Which could be a reason the GAs live so long. They have to.

Don’t get me wrong, I had some good times in Mormonism. Some really special moments before it all went south. That’s partly what made recovery so tough. The church completely betrayed not only me but all of the “saints”. They turned the whole thing to shit before my eyes. The leaders will never lead us astray, they said. How does straight down a blind alley not count as astray? Maybe I needed to grieve for seven years. But I’m done now.

Joseph always was a home wrecker, a family wrecker. So what? Maybe getting wrecked was the point. Me and God, we’re okay now. No thanks to the unwise stewards running the church into the ground.

I consider it as part of a learning curve for my life. We didn't pick what religion we were born into. Yet that was the one for whatever reason we were cast into.

It instilled some goodly principles for living, if you can filter out the hoodwink part.

I understand about the priesthood blessing/s as I've had experience with that as well. Is it mysticism? I wish I knew. Still I feel close to my creator, maybe closer, since having the rug of Mormonism pulled out from under my feet.

I was still standing after that rug was gone. The difference for me is since instead of thinking I required Mormonism to save me, I now believe a relationship with my higher power is more personal and not defined by how Mormonism controlled our lives.

I thank God for allowing me to see past that to continue progressing on my life journey. There is a power there though. In the struggle between good and evil maybe there really are powerful forces invisible to the eye but all around us nonetheless. Maybe it will always be a paradox.

I don’t know what it is about faith. Maybe it follows us through the incarnations. I’ve dreamt of earlier times, a time of being an old white-bearded rabbi, library and all. I must have chosen the Mormon experience, with all of its compounding codependency issues. So much there, on that long and winding road. Don’t leave me standing here, lead me to your door. It took all of this to realize I was there all along. I was never alone. Never wanting. Never unworthy. Never unloved. My whole existence, a miracle. I found my God at the bottom of Mormonism’s dirty little cess pit.

I’m glad I wrote so much today. I needed it. I needed hope. Faith, hope, charity, how did they lose that? How did I make their loss mine? Maybe the old brainwashing runs deep. It’s a hell of a thing to move a mountain. It takes real faith.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don’t know what it is about faith. Maybe it
> follows us through the incarnations. I’ve dreamt
> of earlier times, a time of being an old
> white-bearded rabbi, library and all. I must have
> chosen the Mormon experience, with all of its
> compounding codependency issues. So much there, on
> that long and winding road. Don’t leave me
> standing here, lead me to your door. It took all
> of this to realize I was there all along. I was
> never alone. Never wanting. Never unworthy. Never
> unloved. My whole existence, a miracle. I found my
> God at the bottom of Mormonism’s dirty little
> cess pit.

If this is a reincarnation we're living through now, do we really have any more say in where or who we're born to than birth itself? Those are things beyond our control or understanding. I've experienced deja vu moments in my lifetime. And I know there is someone who watches over us who cares for our welfare. Where does that leave faith? I still suffer and have problems. I just know we're not alone and this life is fleeting. There is so much more we do not know like the scripture that goes for now I see through a glass darkly. "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." 1Cor.13:12

>
> I’m glad I wrote so much today. I needed it. I
> needed hope. Faith, hope, charity, how did they
> lose that? How did I make their loss mine? Maybe
> the old brainwashing runs deep. It’s a hell of a
> thing to move a mountain. It takes real faith.

When you realize that it's faith not you moving the mountain, the paradigm changes. "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help. My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth." Pslm 121

Mormonism cannot make you lose your faith. The same goes for joy and inner peace. It can't take that from you. It's always been yours to claim.

Yes, it could have been for nothing.

I'm happy for those who are OK with having been a Mormon, or, at least, had some good come out of it. It's probably easier for you to love.

As for me, I was abused in Mormonism--violently beaten, and almost killed, by my RM temple ex-husband. My older brother tortured me and beat me all my life, until I left for BYU, the day after graduating high school, and never returned home. I didn't have a home to return to, because my brother lived there until my parents died. I didn't marry my soul mate, because he was Atheist, and my parents would not stand for it. They brainwashed me out of it. One of their arguments was that I was not sophisticated enough, not intelligent enough, for this accomplished man. I was doing him a favor, by not marrying him and becoming a burden to him.

It was worse than "being for nothing." Mormonism robbed me of my childhood, and my first years of adulthood. It made me unhappy and anxious and confused. I felt like I was nothing. The remainder of my life has been clouded by PTSD. I lost far more than money to that cult.

My experiences were different, and probably more extreme. However, my children were abused by the ward leaders, so it was pretty bad for them. The second my kids told me about the abuse, we were OUT OF THERE FOREVER. I had no knowledge about the hoax and the lies--I just knew God would not want us to be abused!
I told the bishop, "This is not God's work. God is not here."

exminion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm happy for those who are OK with having been a
> Mormon, or, at least, had some good come out of
> it. It's probably easier for you to love.
>
> As for me, I was abused in Mormonism--violently
> beaten, and almost killed, by my RM temple
> ex-husband. My older brother tortured me and beat
> me all my life, until I left for BYU, the day
> after graduating high school, and never returned
> home. I didn't have a home to return to, because
> my brother lived there until my parents died. I
> didn't marry my soul mate, because he was Atheist,
> and my parents would not stand for it. They
> brainwashed me out of it. One of their arguments
> was that I was not sophisticated enough, not
> intelligent enough, for this accomplished man. I
> was doing him a favor, by not marrying him and
> becoming a burden to him.

I identify with much of what you've lived through. My ex wasn't LDS but he was a domestic abuser. I left once I realized who I'd married because he wasn't going to change. So I got out. My family was very dysfunctional, growing up Mormon. There are some happy memories but some pretty tough times too. My soul mate wasn't LDS either. He died when I was 22 and he was 29. I'll never get over that because he was my soul mate. He was accomplished, like yours. He was a nuclear scientist. He grew up in Amish country, and was raised Presbyterian. None of that matters now that he's been gone more than a lifetime ago. My religion played a role in our meeting. It's influenced every aspect of my life for better or worse. The night before we met I dreamt we were on our third honeymoon. It took 15 years after his death for me to realize that symbolized a third lifetime for our romance to bloom. Because of course Mormonism left no possibility for reincarnation as a viable reality.
>
> It was worse than "being for nothing." Mormonism
> robbed me of my childhood, and my first years of
> adulthood. It made me unhappy and anxious and
> confused. I felt like I was nothing. The
> remainder of my life has been clouded by PTSD. I
> lost far more than money to that cult.

I struggle with that too. Self-esteem issues of having been Mormon and then not Mormon. Never measuring up to perfection. Who needs that anyway? PTSD clouds a lot of things don't it? Therapy has helped though I don't think there's a cure. More like coping mechanisms.
>
> My experiences were different, and probably more
> extreme. However, my children were abused by the
> ward leaders, so it was pretty bad for them. The
> second my kids told me about the abuse, we were
> OUT OF THERE FOREVER. I had no knowledge about
> the hoax and the lies--I just knew God would not
> want us to be abused!
> I told the bishop, "This is not God's work. God
> is not here."

I left with my kids. The abuse runs deep. Some of those ward leaders are just plain crazy.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2018 05:22AM by Amyjo.

I’m sorry all of that happened to you. The church is a magnet for psychopaths and sociopaths. It can hardly hold members responsible for their loss of faith or apostasy or what have you. But it’s only a matter of time before their reckless disregard catches up with them.

Exminion, your post is a difficult to read reminder of how different each of our experiences was. Mine was so different to yours, but has colored my entire life as well and in negative ways. So any positives seem to pale.

I'm of the belief that so much of our ways of being, our personalities are in many ways "set" during our formative years as Mormons which some list as childhood and some claim these formative years go to twenty. Both could be true depending on each individuals genes gifted to them by millions of ancestors. But at some point you have less choice over who you are no matter what all the self help books in the world claim and no matter how much carameldreams claims we can choose to believe or be what ever we want so easily---that's my own opinion anyway. It's just not the "Pollyanna" simple.

I can see knowledge and wisdom from having lived through Mormonism---BUT---I have trouble employing that knowledge and wisdom because of having been Mormon, BIC to the hilt Mormon.

But...priesthood blessings *don't* "work."
You're right, though, that the same "benefits" can be had at a much cheaper price.

Pray to your toaster for a "blessing." You'll get the exact same results as priesthood blessings.

Put a magic rock (any rock will do, pick one up off the ground) in your pocket. You'll get the exact same results as priesthood blessings.

Pray to Zeus. Or Marduk. Or any of the tens of thousands of other claimed god-things. You'll get the exact same results as priesthood blessings. Without having to pay tithing or get your head covered with rancid olive oil.

All those things (and nearly an infinite number more) all "work" at the same rate -- chance. And if you bother to keep track of the times they "work" and the times they don't, you'll see they all work at the same rate as chance. And then you can dispense with doing any of them at all -- because chance results occur whether you want them to or not. Whether you do some request for "blessing" or not.

Could it have all been for nothing?
Yeah, it could have.
Unless you learn something from the experience...in which case, it wasn't for nothing :)

B, You are correct! In my 'experiences' 'it' certainly wasn't for nothing!

I wouldn't be in the same 'place' I am today ----- for better or worse! Therefore, all the 'negative comments' above are definitely true also. Mormonism was costly, a hassle, and a significant 'experience' both good and bad, yet we hopefully are getting through it and learning from our Mormon experience.

Of course, based on my 'experiences', I believe I planned this life including Mormonism for sure, as I was born in it, and where I will end up. So it is not so much an issue of whether the cost, hassle, etc. was worth it as much as this was my 'plan' for 'whatever' reason! I expect the reason was pretty good and more 'enlightened' than I can understand at this time as a human.

Of course, I could have planned a life without Mormonism but apparently I did not ----- I wish I knew precisely why but I don't. I expect to understand it more fully when my body dies and I get back my full memory.

I don't believe people born into Third World countries choose their condition or lot in life. Do you?

We actually have it pretty good, all things considered. I don't want to think it's because we were 'special' or pre-ordained to be born into the lives that we were.

It's either random or it isn't. But I do feel very connected to my family and my ancestors. So there is something there however intangible that is real to the senses. It's the connection to our past, our history, our people. Is that eternal?

Who really knows?

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't believe people born into Third World
> countries choose their condition or lot in life.
> Do you?
>
> We actually have it pretty good, all things
> considered. I don't want to think it's because we
> were 'special' or pre-ordained to be born into the
> lives that we were.
>
> It's either random or it isn't. But I do feel very
> connected to my family and my ancestors. So there
> is something there however intangible that is real
> to the senses. It's the connection to our past,
> our history, our people. Is that eternal?
>
> Who really knows?
_____________________________________________________________

It's fine to 'believe' what you want! UBU!

We are not anymore special than anyone else! However, we 'chose' because there is 'free choice' in the 'between life'. That choice is not made with such 'limited knowledge' that we have as 'humans'. So do I understand why I chose what I chose ---- no.

If you don't think I have chosen 'far worse (living conditions) lives' you would be wrong, based on my 'spiritual experiences'! I have seen a number of past live some comfortable some bearable but they all were 'experiences' that hopefully I learned from.

As far as being connected to 'family and friends' ---- you are correct. We 'incarnate' with our 'soul group' which includes family, friends/enemies based on the 'role' they are playing. We progress individually but to a great extent as a 'soul group' also. Therefore, to not appreciate what family members may have said or done to you is logical. However, they should all be 'loved' for something also and we should always try to mend relationships with them no matter what their past.

As far as 'who knows' ------ anyone who can find 'truth' can gain a strong 'belief' but what 'human' can 'know' anything not scientifically provable? I am one that believes we can tap into the 'universal mind/truth' that knows all truth ---- note that is a 'belief'.

My thoughts based on my 'experiences' and questions/answers from (dreams, intuition techniques, remote viewing, etc.).

I monitor the work of some who I consider the best, in my 'areas of some expertise' and the 'information' they are getting is pretty much the same as what I and others get ----- however that does not validate it as 'truth' for sure. Are all the people that post their work on 'truths' they find accurate ----- certainly not!

This would justify the caste system in India, the class system in the UK, slavery in the United States, and Jewishness in 1930s Germany.

It is a variant of the "in the pre-existence you chose your parents" dogma in Mormonism. It justifies all human suffering and vitiates guilt for harming others.

I respectfully suggest you swap out "spiritist" in favor of "Dr. Pangloss."

This would justify the caste system in India, the class system in the UK, slavery in the United States, and Jewishness in 1930s Germany.
______________________________________________________________

If 'this' would justify all the 'bad things' you mention then logically it would also justify all the 'good things' that have occurred on this planet!!!!!!! And you would be right because all the 'good' and 'bad' are 'planned'!!! Even though, good and bad 'things' (events, life, death, etc.) what isn't planned is our 'reactions' to these events and thus we get experience and hopefully learning occurs.

So lets see has life for us humans improved over time or not???? Hummmmm!! That is one of the purposes of our existence to create and improve things!

I do not applaud the terrible things people have done in history or do now but maybe they helped create some 'good' on our planet also given the what I consider 'better world' that has resulted. I certainly agree there should be 'consequences' and there is certainly room for improvement of the 'human condition'.

The 'truth' is the 'truth' ----- if you can't stand a different 'belief' I feel sorry for you.

My 'beliefs' are not based on some 'popular human or what I would like' ------they are based on my 'spiritual/supernatural/paranormal experiences'.

I would rather trust multiple personal experiences than some 'human' with 'no, or limited' experiences or just my 'human opinion without experiences' to determine my 'truths'.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2018 06:06PM by spiritist.

That's a pretty vile philosophy, one would think. Those who suffer deserve to suffer.

At least there is the consolation that without evidence, the paranoid schizophrenic's world view is as legitimate as anyone else's--a "fact" that can surely be dismissed out of hand.

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way.

Little did Charles Dickens know that he would some day describe my own experience with the LDS Church. I *still* have mixed feelings about it all. I had great times growing up in it - intrusive bishops interviews and guilt not withstanding. It slowly started unraveling for me at BYU and my mission when I started to see the men behind the curtain. Still, the church I grew up in was fun. My ward(s) were an actual community. I looked forward to Primary and later MIA/YM/YW/APYW every week. Roadshows, Super Saturdays, multi stake dances, Youth Conferences, scouting - I loved it all and had fun.

The slow realization that the pharisees running the church are a bunch of a55sholes was hard for me to come to grips with. My anger that I was mislead about "the truth" is still fighting with the near idyllic childhood I had. I have siblings who most likely wouldn't exist if not for the church. I have lifelong friends, a spouse and children that would not exist if not for the church. So the whole LDS experience hasn't been for nothing - but I still am struggling trying to frame it all in a way that doesn't drive me nuts.

Nice post. You and Charles handled that beautifully.

I grew up when the church was fun and people were mostly nice--the fifties. Like you, the Road Shows, the hayrides, dances at Mutual, stake dances with popular music and pot lucks and ward bazaars and love.

I think back to what that church was--at least in my rural mountain town--and it seems like it should have embraced humanity at least at the same rate at the rest of the country did. The path should have led to more love for blacks and gays and empowerment of women. The church I new as a kid seems like it should have headed in that direction.

But by the sixties it was turning very ugly very fast.

I sat with a group of Mormons in front of a television once watching the race riots and I heard the phrase, "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile," followed by a few "Yups." And in the sixties they started the electroshock at BYU with Wilkinson and soon Oaks. And then everyone devoured that Miracle of Forgiveness book and the Gerontocracy didn't even try to pretend to be loving anymore. Last talk I heard at the Marriott Center Priesthood meeting was all about how God has to chop you back so we could grow back the proper way like we were all out of control bushes and trees and that was all.

The Mormon church had a moment where it veered away for minute from the craziness of Joseph and the Blood Thirsty tyrant it was of Brigham and nearly became something nice. But it made an abrupt U-turn back to nasty and here we are.

Exactly. There was a "golden era" of sorts in the 1950s-early 1970s even if it turned out to have been fool's gold. And then it gradually became a much more oppressive place.

That is of course a gross generalization; for everyone in some ways, and for minorities and women and gay people in many ways, it was always a repressive cult. It's just that on balance it was less cultish for two or three decades.

And even during the good period there was a true cost to membership. The appropriate analogy is "opportunity cost." Sure, everyone gains something from every experience. The standard is whether they might have gained more, and lost less, with another set of experiences.

" Sure, everyone gains something from every experience. The standard is whether they might have gained more, and lost less, with another set of experiences."

^This^ This is the heart of what this thread is all about I would say. I'm not even sure of my own answer for that.

Very thought provoking thread Babylon.

You had Priesthood blessings work? Lucky you. They never did for me.

Ask a rabbit's foot or a clairvoyant whether you should do something or not, and the answer will be correct fifty percent of the time. So yes, sometimes priesthood blessings "work."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/29/2018 11:35AM by Lot's Wife.

I came to just as my dad and his friend finished the blessing.

Even as a TBM kid I felt like I had just come to and it didn't feel like the Lord's hand had been in it at all. I felt nothing special.

Word of the miracle spread thought the ward. After I left the church my father would bring up the miracle from time to time to make me realize I had turned my back on the one true church. The miracle now felt like toilet paper stuck to my shoe.

It was just a minor concussion and I just woke up like most do. And, none of the others blessings my father and his mormon friends gave ever amounted to anything.

I'm batting .000 at healing Down Syndrome babies.

Too bad missionaries aren't taught how to turn away requests for special blessings, because I bet the GAs have a system for doing just that.

Why bother with a Primary Children's' Hospital when you've all that priesthood power so handy? Just send over one GA a day...

Why are you complaining? .000 is an excellent score, I am told, in golf.

<Big Sigh>

I said nothing when you had the catcher 'squatting' in front of the "referee"... The catcher squats in front of the umpire!

.000, or rounding off at the 1/1,000th of a point, is only done in baseball.

Scoring in golf ... When done correctly, any two competitors, playing to their handicaps, will end up tied at the conclusion of the round. That is the true spirit of the game.


As for the theme of this thread, I am sufficiently out of touch with life as to be uncaring regarding the score. What was, now is, through daily progress, with nightly action, too.

What will be? I could predict, but I'll just wait to see.

Now I'm all confused.

I thought the umpire was in a football game. And I thought the San Francisco 49ers were the ones who considered a score of zero perfection although I admit to knowing very little about soccer.

So what we need is a re write of Shawshank into Marie Osmond and the Mormon Redemption.

We imprisoned on false doctrines rather than pretenses