Which is more extreme?

The burn in hell threat is pretty hollow if one doesn't believe in existence after death. But when a Mormon calls someone a Korihor, that implies a threat of suffering and a violent death in this life. Seems worse to me.

Not that I believe anything in the Book of Mormon, but do those Mormons who say that even stop to think of what they are implying? It comes across to me sometimes as if they are wishing suffering, harm and death to a critic of their religion.

Everybody loves a "bad boy" so just say thank you.

They are wishing you suffering but the main point is that they are wanting you to take note of their superiority thereby demonstrating their self-righteousness from which they derive their self esteem. They are claiming victory. In the BoM this would be the very "stiff-neckedness" that they accuse us of. Nothing will make your neck as stiff as being terminally Mormon.

"Nothing will make your neck as stiff as being terminally Mormon." LOL. So true.

I think they use is too as a way to claim that a person can't think for oneself and see through the BS of Mormonism. The Korihor story makes the case for them that one still believes but has been duped by Satan.

Done & Done Wrote:
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> They are wishing you suffering but the main point is that they are wanting you to take note of their superiority thereby demonstrating their self-righteousness from which they derive their self esteem.

This is a truly masterful summary.

I never heard of this story. There sure seems to be a lot which was not included in SS. Or perhaps I had dozed. off.

This could be compensation for the inferiority that Mormonism breeds.

Just demand a sign from God. I've done it. My seminary principle at Orem High called me an anti-Christ for asking probing questions in seminary when he permanently expelled me. I told him then God should strike me down.


Still waiting...

Elder Berry Wrote:
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>when he permanently expelled me.

Why do you call yourself "Elder" if the church was something you disagreed with? Why keep the title?

Just wondering.

It is a sign of my power and priesthoods.

Where's the "like" button? :)

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> It is a sign of my power and priesthoods.

Ha! Guess that really comes in handy here on RfM!

somebody put Elder Berry in ziller's gin once ~


10/10 ~ wood drink again ~

ziller Wrote:
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> somebody put Elder Berry in ziller's gin once ~

Aha...I have heard of those elderberry flower fermented drinks, supposed to be able to put a strong man under the table.

Are you still there, Ziller?

Wake up?

So many of their fundamental beliefs can be proven false with little effort that I can’t take any of their beliefs seriously. Whatever comes out of their mouths, it’s the Kool Aid talking.

"it’s the Kool Aid talking." I like that.

The story of Kohihor is perhaps the most nonsensical story in the entire nonsensical Book of Mormon.

Its my favorite.

It's a really good story because it shows how powerful the argument from a true secularist really is. There is no God, man fares according to the creature (or by his own wits), live in humanistic way. That's basically what Darwinism, Hyper-gammy, material dialectalism, and leftism is in a nutshell. All written before any of those ideas had been put to words in modern times.

The part that BOM falls apart in is that Alma can't think of a defense or argument that will win the debate. He, the gods, and the rest of the mormonites are losing the fight. So in his desperation he resorts to cursing him with blindness, lol!

The BOM fails in logical argument. Maybe it was meant to do that. A sort of sophisticated satire.

macaRomney Wrote:
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> Maybe it was
> meant to do that. A sort of sophisticated satire.

Probably. Ironically, it has devil in it that both parties agree exists.

Yeah, considering the source and the context, I'd think being called Korihor is the worst of the two. Though neither really means too much to me beyond the intent of whomever is saying it.

I've been called "Korihor", "pawn of the Devil/Satan/Adversary", "stiff-necked", "prideful", and a couple others that do not immediately come to mind. Nobody's told me I'm going to burn in hell...yet.

You going to burn in hell.

Thank you. The oversight...and I'm sure that's all it was...has now been corrected. ;)

You are welcome. I'll see you there.

Who came up with burn in hell anyways. With Dante, you were in ice or being chewed by the 3 heads of Satan. Jesus didnt say in parting, oh by the way Judas is going to descend into hell and be chewed forever. He said Love one another as I have loved you.

Or you had Judas bloating with worms until he exploded ala the one who killed Jo's. Smith as dying with worms eating their faces. All the ones I read about lived until old age except for the ones the Danites killed supposedly to save them from hell by blood storming them, using them up.

Jesus never mentioned outer darkness.He was facing all kinds of apostates and never said if you abandon me, which quite a few of his disciples did even his brothers thinking he was beside himself or insane, your life wouldbe s*** and then you will burn in hell.He who is the judge of all, said love others as I have loved you.

Interesting points.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/hell

No, in my last resignation-interview with my bishop, he told me that I will be in "outer darkness," because I was formerly a righteous temple Mormon.

"So...I will be punished more heavily because I was righteous."


I know that God loves me and my children, and he will not punish us for following Christ--so exactly who will be punishing us? The Mormons, that's who. By shunning us, in their mind, they are putting us into outer darkness. Mormons figure, Why wait for God to do it?

Why wait for God to judge us? In the conversation, I said to the bishop, "You don't even know me, and you are judging me."

He abruptly got up from his desk, got a Church Handbook of Instructions" and slammed it down, loudly, on the desk in front of my face, and said, "It says in this book that I am "Judge in Zion!" I said, what is this book? It is not scripture. THE BIBLE says to not judge others."

He threatened that God would withdraw all His blessings from me and my children, and that we would fail in life.

I said, "You can not tell God what to do. Your church has no authority over God, or over me.

I walked out of his office, and out of the building, forever.

Amidst all the bullying, love-bombing, shunning, all the lies, and my own anger, I had to calmly figure it out:

Anyone who wishes us to be cast into outer darkness, or a "Son of Perdition" (What the hell is that?), or likened unto Korihor or to burn in Hell, or to be separated from our family forever; this is my definition of an ENEMY!

Those are fighting words. >:(

>> "....but do those Mormons who say that even stop to think of what they are implying?"

Mormons seldom ever think of the implication of their words.

A new engineer was hired at my work years ago. I used to take the new ones around for a factory tour, show them an overview of our processes and production, do some mentoring, etc. A few minutes after meeting him, his mormonism showed up, so I mentioned that I used to be mormon, missionary, BYU grad, etc. but had my name removed because I just don't believe it. I mentioned that I still lead pretty much the same lifestyle and he quips "still a good person" without even thinking.

The implication? Even though I'm not mormon, I can still be a good person, not as good as him or other mormons, but still somehow good....gee thanks.

Or, when I came home from BYU, I told my TBM dad that me, wife and kids were done with church. He asked why so I gave him a few reasons...history, impossibilities, etc. He said "well, I'll respect that." The next day he shows up with some Hugh Nibley book or something and tells me if I'm having questions, I should read this book. I told him I thought he said he would respect my decision and how was what he just did doing that?

The implication? He in no way respects my decision and wants me to convert back and is going to actively work toward that end, but doesn't want me think that's what he's doing....gee thanks.

This reminds me of a story Richard Packham told at an ExMormon Foundation Conference. Some righteous Mormon priesthood holder called upon the powers of heaven to strike Mr. Packham dumb. Not only was Packham able to continue speaking, he reported not even getting a sore throat.

The Mormon in question concluded that his keys to the priesthood did not include smiting power.

Burning in hell… that's the BOM afterlife, not the D&C afterlife.

Mormonism can't get anything right.

"I can't be with my family forever? That's not a threat, that's an offer."

Being called a Korihor, is a compliment in my opinion. It means that I have left the church, and I did it using my powers of reasoning.

To Mormons, Korihor means that you a person who knows the truth of the church but has knowingly fought against it because you were deceived by the devil--probably because of pride. Remember Korihor makes the confession right after getting mortally wounded that he knew that it was true all along but had been deceived. You know, they have to get that part in. It's why they always say, "You know the truth of it, and you'll come crawling back."

As for hell, it has no reality, so why worry?

I think wearing a T-shirt with the message "Korihor was right" would be an interesting experience at Temple Square or BYU. Blood pressures would probably rise enough to cause a few strokes.

Book of Mormon stories that my teacher instilled dread in me.
All about the anti-Christs in pre-Christian history.

I had the elders come by last week. I explained to them that I was "excommunicated" for apostasy and speaking ill of local and general leadership, which shocked them. After some debate on the veracity of the BOM, etc. I finally said, the BOM is rubbish, the leaders are scoundrels, and JS was a pedophile. I challenged them and said, "put your arm to the square and caste me down like Korihor in the BOM...use your priesthood elder...come on do it..let's see the bull**** magic at work." They declined and walked away quickly...I yelled "cowards."

understand the Korihor story (a few simple name changes reveals all that you need to know about the substance and logic of the story):


ALMA 30:

12 And this Easter Bunny skeptic, whose name was Korihor, (and the law could have no hold upon him) began to preach unto the people that there should be no Easter Bunny. And after this manner did he preach, saying:

13 O ye that are bound down under a foolish and a vain hope, why do ye yoke yourselves with such foolish things? Why do ye look for an Easter Bunny?

*-*-*

22 And it came to pass that the high priest said unto him: Why do ye go about perverting the ways of the Easter Bunny? Why do ye teach this people that there is no Easter Bunny, to interrupt their rejoicings? Why do ye speak against all the promises of free chocolates and colorful marshmallow eggs?

23 Now the high priest’s name was Giddonah. And Korihor said unto him: Because I do not teach the foolish traditions of your fathers, and because I do not teach this people to bind themselves down under the foolish ordinances and performances which are laid down by ancient priests, to usurp power and authority over them, to keep them in ignorance, that they may not lift up their heads, but be brought down according to thy words.

-*-*-*

35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that causes such joy in their hearts?

36 And Korihor answered him, Yea.

37 And then Alma said unto him: Believest thou that there is a Santa Claus?

38 And he answered, Nay.

39 Now Alma said unto him: Will ye deny again that there is a Santa Claus, and also deny the Easter Bunny? For behold, I say unto you, I know there is a Santa Claus, and also that the Easter Bunny shall come with baskets full of chocolates and colorful marshmallow eggs.

40 And now what evidence have ye that there is no Santa Claus, or that the Easter Bunny cometh not? I say unto you that ye have none, save it be your word only.

*-*-*-*

43 And now Korihor said unto Alma: If thou wilt show me a sign, that I may be convinced that there is a Santa Claus, yea, show unto me that he hath power, and then will I be convinced of the truth of thy words.

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your Santa Claus? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren?

*-*-*-*

45 And yet do ye go about, leading away the hearts of this people, testifying unto them there is no Santa Claus? And yet will ye deny against all these witnesses? And he said: Yea, I will deny, except ye shall show me a sign.

*-*-*-*

49 Now Alma said unto him: This will I give unto thee for a sign, that thou shalt be struck dumb, according to my words; and I say, that in the name of Santa Claus, ye shall be struck dumb, that ye shall no more have utterance.

50 Now when Alma had said these words, Korihor was struck dumb, that he could not have utterance, according to the words of Alma.

*-*-*-*

58 And it came to pass that they were all convinced of the wickedness of Korihor; therefore they were all converted again unto the Easter Bunny; and this put an end to the iniquity after the manner of Korihor. And Korihor did go about from house to house, begging food for his support.

59 And it came to pass that as he went forth among the people, yea, among a people who had separated themselves from the Nephites and called themselves Zoramites, being led by a man whose name was Zoram—and as he went forth amongst them, behold, he was run upon and trodden down, even until he was dead.

60 And thus we see the end of him who perverteth the ways of the Easter Bunny; and thus we see that the Wicked Witch of the East will not support her children at the last day, and neither will her flying monkeys, but doth speedily drag them down to hell.

++++++++++++++++++

My question: Wouldn't it have been easier and more humane for Santa Claus to fly down in his magic sleigh and take Korihor on a ride up to the North Pole, where he could meet the Easter Bunny and watch the elves and junior bunnies making toys and treats?

That was funny!

I like how the apparent weakness in the argument being made by Korihor:

"40 And now what evidence have ye that there is no Santa Claus, or that the Easter Bunny cometh not? I say unto you that ye have none, save it be your word only."

is the exact same with Alma...
The contradiction is stunning.

I'd wear it as badge of honor.
Korihor was the only enlightened character in Joseph's Myth. The best analysis Ive read on Korihor was based upon Thomas Paine's Common Sense and Age of Reason, which defined the Enlightenment principles upon which America was founded. They were what inspired deists, like Jefferson and Franklin to undertake the experiment in democracy.
Jopesph's Myth was the antithesis to democracy or the enlightenment principles upon which it was based.
i spell it Koriwhore just because its funny.

I would wear it as a badge of honor, just like I wear apostate as a badge of honor.

I was such a good little mormon girl that I love being the opposite. It has been very FREEING for me.