During my 18 months as a convert, intimate subjects seemed to be brought up a lot, in casual conversation with people I barely knew.

One attractive lady I lunched with, confided that she had not been intimate with her husband for four years. She described her efforts (lingerie, etc) and his excuses, and her 'work-around'.

Another told me her now-husband had not had relations with his former wife anytime during their 30-year marriage, then told me waay too much about how he was in bed with her now. Argh.

Another person told me about the attractive single man in my ward, who had married twice in the Temple, but had both marriages annulled due to inability (to follow-through).

Another member told me she was caught in bed with another woman's husband and ex-communicated (now restored). Crying all the time she told me this, (I barely knew her!)

Is intimacy on their minds more because there are so many rules around it? It just seems weird that it would be talked about so much.

with the men. One is that they have been told that sex is bad--bad, bad, bad, for their entire lives up to this point. I think some just can't let go of that attitude. I've seen that in some of the mormon guys I actually knew in the singles ward. I also have an ex-BIL who is that way.

The rest are probably gay and got married because they were told to or felt they had to.

I was talking to some guy at work and we were discussing my situation. Gay/straight marriage. I actually don't talk about our sex life. Everyone likes to say "well, at least he was able to do it once" since we have a set of twins. Talking about sex for me is traumatic and so bishop interviews were destructive to me.

But I was talking to this guy at work and he said, "Well, you should talk to _____ as he got married and had kids." He is so obviously gay and I already knew it. So he comes in to have lunch and sits down, and he said, "Well, you live in Utah, you're supposed to get married, so I did." I'd believe that many of them are gay. They still do tell gays to marry. We have a poster on this board who isn't here all the time, I think nonsequiter, who has been told to get married by many leaders.

Yes, in thinking about it, I actually have had mormon women tell me about their sex lives. I've said more on this board about my sex life than anywhere, but it has been a while.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The rest are probably gay....
CL,


That is one thing I've never understood, why gays flirt with women soooo much, when they are gay?

That husband who hadn't been with his wife for 4 years would put his arm around me, in chapel, every chance he got, he was flirting with me all the time, trying to walk with me, etc.. If he was gay why do this?

Especially for the gay single guys, why oh why do they flirt with us, and lead us on that they are interested, looking us up and down with that heightened attention that shows when a guy is interested, when they aren't?

Done, or CL, or somebody else, I would really, really like to understand this....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2019 01:37PM by mel.

mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cl2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The rest are probably gay....
> CL,
>
>
> That is one thing I've never understood, why gays
> flirt with women soooo much, when they are gay?
>
> That husband who hadn't been with his wife for 4
> years would put his arm around me, in chapel,
> every chance he got, he was flirting with me all
> the time, trying to walk with me, etc.. If he was
> gay why do this?
>
> Especially for the gay single guys, why oh why do
> they flirt with us, and lead us on that they are
> interested, looking us up and down with that
> heightened attention that shows when a guy is
> interested, when they aren't?
>
> Done, or CL, or somebody else, I would really,
> really like to understand this....


Gay men, like straight men, enjoy the attention from a woman. I dont care how gay you are, its in your DNA. Same can be said about gay women. Many, many times I would have never guessed some women were lesbians.

logan Wrote:

> Gay men, like straight men, enjoy the attention
> from a woman. I dont care how gay you are, its in
> your DNA. Same can be said about gay women. Many,
> many times I would have never guessed some women
> were lesbians.

Thank you, Logan. I appreciate your writing and sharing your perspective. Attention is indeed powerful!

They may not be flirting. Remember that they aren't attracted to women, so they may see themselves as merely being innocently friendly: "just one of the girls".

East Coast Exmo Wrote:
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> They may not be flirting. Remember that they aren't attracted to women....

Interesting thought. I just wonder how much of the 'looking' is involuntary. Like when I wore something that showed a little skin, like a knee-length skirt or a scoop-neck blouse, do gay guys also have that immediate "look"--you know what I mean, when they LOOK, you can tell they are digging it, it is quick when they first walk up to you, but you can SEE it when they do it! And that made me figure, with the flirtatious guy, that he was -not gay- but maybe gays also do this even when they aren't 'interested?"

I just wish it could always be very clear. Instead of leaving us to wonder, and puzzle, and of course, never know, at least partly because of this church's stance on gays.

And as far as my topic, nobody ever talked about gayness to me. They only talked about hetero intimacy, having it or not having it. I think gay was buried too deep even for it to be talked about by anyone.

Thank you, East Coast Exmo, for your observation that a lot of gay guys enjoy "just being one of the girls."

One of my best friends - going back to college days, which is nearly half-a-century now, is a gay guy. Once I got over my shock at his being gay, (that's a whole 'nother story) I realized that my relationship with him was very much like my relationship with "girlfriends." Comfortable.

I remember when he told me that since gay marriage was now legal, he and his partner for three or so decades were going to tie the knot and make it legal, I was so happy for him. We chattered like a couple of squirrels about that. I remembered that my lifelong best friend and I had talked just like that about our own weddings.

I set out to find the perfect wedding card for them. Do you have any idea how many cards refer only to "the bride and groom?" After a lot of diligent searching, I found one that seemed to hit just the right note. DH and I both signed it. My friend and his new husband liked the card so much that it became the frontispiece to their wedding album.

Thank you, CL. You views are very interesting as always.

How sad for all involved that people have to pretend even through getting married.

The board is anonymous so it seems appropriate to discuss anything here. Nobody has to read or participate if they aren’t interested in a topic. Real life though, that surprised me.

Obviously a result of that good ole religious repression;


I was just planning another thread on this phenom, it will be up in a few minutes (no spoiler, ha ha)

Yes, I think it's a combination of 2 things:

1. The whole repression of natural urges / vilification of masturbators / licked cupcake stuff.

2. The utter lack of boundaries mormons have as a result of a lifetime of worthiness interviews, gossip, home / visiting teachers invading our homes.

When you have no reasonable boundaries, and have been sexually repressed your whole life, those repressed thoughts will necessarily be top of mind and you will inevitable share them with people you definitely shouldn't be sharing those kinds of intimate details with.

justkeepswimming Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> When you have no reasonable boundaries

I think you're right!!! That's what surprised me, that they would openly talk about these things to a virtual stranger! But you're right, they've been trained to do that by the church!!!!!

Thank you for writing.

Yes, boundaries. We have to talk openly about sexual things with our bishop from the time we're tweens. We didn't learn that this is abnormal, so we continue to do it.

I think part of it is the get married right away thing. No time to find a true love. Just checking a box.

Another part is wearing garments to bed. Little or no regular skin to skin contact.

Yet another part is wearing people down with callings on top of life's day to day stress. People are just too tired.

Heartless Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another part is wearing garments to bed.

I can't even imagine people doing this. When its hot! How awful!

> People are just too tired.

Yup. Especially having all those kids to look after. All that laundry! Ugh!

As a nevermo, I don't recall discussing sex in any great detail with my girlfriends. But we all had healthy sex lives. I never met a man or knew of a man who didn't enjoy sex with some frequency. On rare occasions there were performance issues due to being a little too inebriated. No big deal.

Something more is going on when a man refuses to sleep with his wife over a period of years. I can't say what, but like cl2, I suspect at least some of those men are gay. Perhaps others have medical issues, or their wives put them off in some manner.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I never met a man or knew of a man who didn't enjoy sex with some frequency.

Yes that was what was so strange to me, hearing about all these difficulties!!!

> Something more is going on when a man refuses to
> sleep with his wife over a period of years.

Yes. Had I not left the cult and cut everyone off I might have heard more. But I suspect you and CL are right.

Just another reason to leave — I don’t want to end up talking about my sex life or lack of it with total strangers over lunch !!!

intimacy is on the minds of everyone mormon or not. We live in an over sexed culture. One that worships youth and sensuality endlessly. A pretty face is all that matters.

Sex and intimacy, so primal, when not expressed kindly and lovingly and freely (meaning without charge), become attached to another emotion.

Power, control, superiority.

Change of thought -

My cousin once came into my room, searched my dresser drawer and confronted me with something that looked (to him) like a birth control device. I was over 50 at the time.

I casually opened it up to show a tooth retainer. I should have milked that situation more but didn't have the energy.

laperla not logged in Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My cousin once came into my room, searched my
> dresser drawer and confronted me with something
> that looked (to him) like a birth control device.

How officious nosy and entitled. I wish you had told him where to shove it!!!
>

Your cousin sounds like he needs psychological counseling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftdfHEqDZ-Q

I have heard stories about bishops and stake presidents asking married couples if they engage in certain things as temple interview questions.

https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/5ldq1x/the_lds_church_ban_on_oral_sex/

Growing up in the church everything was about the law of chastity or so at least it felt to me. No 2 piece swim suits.

anon4this Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have heard stories about bishops and stake
> presidents asking married couples if they engage
> in certain things as temple interview questions.

I have a friend, very strict Pentecostal robsbmarried since a teenager. Someone at work made a joke referring to that practice. She asked me later to explain it to her because she’d didnt know what it was. So yeah, some people probably including morons don’t know about it nor do it. There are probably a lot of jokes in the world that they don’t get!!!

Gay and I still look at women. They are lovely in form, a work of beauty, a member of my species. But I wouldn't have sex with one, just not a turn on for me.

klsmd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gay and I still look at women. They are lovely in
> form, a work of beauty, a member of my species.
> But I wouldn't have sex with one, just not a turn
> on for me.

Got it. The parallel would be if a guy is flirting and checking you out and giving you the LOOK up and down letting you know that he thinks you are desirable... then after weeks of doing that, and you are imagining things with him, he walks away because he’s straight and you don’t turn him on.

It’s a matter of degree. Nothing wrong with looking and flirting but sustained campaigns which then lead to the guy doing nothing seemed to be common only in Mormondom and seems to be either they’re hiding their gayness or have had it drummed into their head that sex is bad that they can’t get past it.

These "TMI" situations happened to me a lot, too, when I moved to Utah, and started attending my new ward with my kids, as a newly divorced mom. Somehow, they found out that I had been briefly married in the temple, to a different man, and this was my second divorce. Since I was twice divorced, I suppose the women and men thought I was an expert on sex, and dating. I would tell them that I had slept with only my 2 husbands, and had made very poor choices there--so what did I know? The Mormons put me in charge (co-chairman) of the Regional Mormon single adults. Single Mormons came to me for advice. I mainly listened, as it often helps for them just to talk things out.

But it was the married Mormon couples that bothered me the most. The married ones--not the single ones--loved to tell me details, and brag about their rich sex life. I mean, at first, they would seem to need someone to help them straighten out their problems, but then they would end up just bragging.

Several times, I have helped women escape from abusive relationships--because I have experience with that--but I leave the specifics to the police, the shelters, attorneys, or strong family members. When strangers got my phone number, and started calling me and saying, "I hear you help people get out of abusive relationships..." I became frightened. I was living alone, with small children, and my own violent first ex-husband was still stalking me, claiming our temple marriage was still valid.

I have some friends who are policemen, and they all agree that situations of domestic violence are the scariest of all. They urged me to have nothing to do with these situations, for my own safety.

I would tell the men, "I really don't want to hear about your sex life. I'm leaving, now."

I would tell the women, "I've had two horrible marriages, and two ugly divorces, and I'm certainly not qualified to help anyone."

I'm suspicious of Mormons, and would think that the ones who force too much intimacy upon you, have an ulterior motive.

Perhaps the men are hitting on you, as in the old line, "My wife doesn't understand me." If a man says his wife won't have sex with him (I heard that all the time), I just laugh at him, and say he is lying.

Mormon women are competitive, and love to brag to other women. Some I know actually compete as to who has the WORST marriage, also. The woman who told you about her affair, probably thinks it makes her more interesting than everyone else. A lot of these women are just bored.

exminion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But it was the married Mormon couples that bothered me the most. The married ones--not the single ones--loved to tell me details, and brag...

YES! That was what happened to me! I mean, there I was, looking forward to a nice, pleasant hour-long lunch getting to know someone, and Whammo! they hit you with THIS stuff! I'd never seen anything like it!!! Never!

> When strangers got my phone number

You were right to distance yourself pronto! Domestic is a horribly dangerous situation both for strangers and those involved. Good to stay away and let armed professionals or other people with resources, help them.

> I would tell the women, "I've had two horrible
> marriages, and two ugly divorces, and I'm
> certainly not qualified to help anyone."

Wow. That lays it on the line, for sure!!!
>
> I'm suspicious of Mormons, and would think that the ones who force too much intimacy upon you, have an ulterior motive.

YES! I wondered that too! Why on earth are they telling me this stuff? And then I realized it is a MoRon thing, many of them were doing it, sharing inappropriate intimate details. Ugh.

Perhaps by sharing they wanted to entice me to also share? Didn't happen.

It was married women who talked to me about this stuff.

> A lot of these women are just bored.

I think you're right, and as a convert, I was a new audience, whereas they had not maybe made any new friends for quite a while.

Thanks so much for writing, Ex! Your experiences are amazing. Always good to hear from you!

I just found Mormons to be pretty much like everyone else. Some would talk about their sex lives and others wouldn't. Sex varies as much as individuals do. Everyone has their preferences. There are Mormons having great sex and there are Baptists having great sex and some people having ok sex. A bad night of sex still beats a good day at work. Haha!

Rubicon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A bad night of sex still beats a good day at work. Haha!

Too true. :)

The ideas of the current leadership about sexual relations came out of the 50s. Their generation thought wiring the planet with thermonuclear weapons was a good idea. Growing up Mormon, I got my sexual values from Dr Strangelove. I’m so glad they were protecting my precious bodily fluids.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got my sexual values from Dr Strangelove. I’m so glad they were protecting my precious bodily fluids.

Oh my gosh I have not seen that movie in so long! I will have to re-watch it now you have mentioned it!

checking me out, although he did think I was attractive and he loved how I dressed, as did every guy I ever dated. He liked to show me off. His other gay married friends would ask how he got me. I tried to get him to want to get involved with someone else as I just couldn't handle the situation, but he wanted me. Hell!

He still NEEDS me and his gay friends and boyfriends tell me that all the time. I'm really good friends with 2 of his old boyfriends. We're all friends. When I go out to dinner with them, we call it big love. I'm more of a "mother" figure to him. I'm security. We have a good relationship, but NOW it is what it should have always been--friends. It works much better this way. MUCH BETTER. There are many, many, many days I regret ever marrying him, but there are times that I know it was the right thing to do for him and for me actually. I never would have figured it out without it being something this big--gay. Getting out of the church. He never would have learned to accept himself. Me accepting him as he is made a huge difference.

But his old gay boyfriend who came to my daughter's wedding was telling me which dress to wear and he admires things like the purses I buy, etc. He gives me nice gifts like jewelry, etc. Gays appreciate women's fashion more than you know--a lot do. My ex does not. He likes me to dress nice, bUT he isn't into fashion at all including his own. My daughter and I dress him. I have dressed him since the day I met him. He can fix ANYTHING and I MEAN ANYTHING, put on a roof, lay flooring, fix cars until you hate the car and wish he'd let you get rid of it. But he is SO GAY. There is no bi in him. And yet, he decided to attach himself to me. THE FIRST MORMON GUY WHO EVER DID and I met him at 25. I dated many nonmormons. AND I LIVE IN UTAH.

he didn't have a problem with having sex with me, but once I had sex with a straight guy, I KNEW THE DIFFERENCE. He wasn't attracted to me and you know deep down that they aren't. I had to become an "it" to survive in the relationship. It was very damaging to me and I assume to him, BUT he about lost it when he found out I had had sex with my old boyfriend (now my present boyfriend). I had dated this guy when I was 20 and I was head over heels in love with him. I'd call him my soul mate. So when he came back into my life, my ex couldn't handle it. He even told his boyfriend at the time that we had a better sex life than he had with him. SHOCKER.

When people would say at least he was able to have sex with me once as we had the twins, then we'd just silently chuckle.

But as I look back, I know the difference. I have a hard time putting myself back there in my mind. I have pretty much suppressed our sex life in my mind. I have pretty much suppressed the fact that I'm married to him, that I ever was. And obviously my boyfriend doesn't feel there is ANYTHING between my husband and I. It is OBVIOUS that we are not attracted to each other. I think my husband just NEEDS me and that is why he was threatened that my boyfriend was back in my life. He always knew how much I loved the old boyfriend.

But we had a lot of sex. It gradually died off, but part of that was me as after I had twins, I lived in fear of ever getting pregnant again. He started cheating 2-1/2 years in.

What I always wanted from the lds leaders is for them to tell me that he was okay as he was so that he could go out and find someone to love and not be alone. I couldn't handle the idea of him being alone. I still can't.

that the lds church teaches. My ex wanted it more than I did and that says a lot. He said he always prayed for someone to come along that would help him and give him the white picket fence, kids, etc. He cried often about never being able to have children. We dated 9 months before I finally pressed him to tell me why he would act like we were a couple and then be distant and then act like we were a couple and then be distant. It was March 22, 1983. I actually almost forgot about it this year FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER. It changed my life. I've never been the same and never will be.

And i agree with someone who said that people just get married especially I think in a situation like mormonism. They pair off. My ex and I used to lie in bed at night and talk about how we got along better than most of the couples we knew, especially in the ward. In fact, I've had so many women in this ward come to me to tell me how much they can't stand their husbands.

After my ex left, my neighbor, whose husband was bishop at the time, came and asked me if the ward would be shocked if she left her husband as she was looking for an apartment. She asked me what I thought she should do. This really shocked me. I told her to try to make the marriage work and to talk to him. She did. They're still married. They moved into a new home and do things as a couple all the time. She laid down the law. They got married right after high school.

for adding on, but I'm not. I should change computers so I'm signed in.

We know a lot of gay men who are married. I have also had women tell me that their husband doesn't find them attractive. I never say anything about what I think it is. I have a lot of people confide in me about many things. My husband's sister told me she is a lesbian about 25 years ago. She is married and the kids were conceived in the doctor's office. Her husband is sexually suppressed. She now denies she ever told me she is lesbian. I remember it well. I mean, how can you forget that considering your husband is gay, and there were details she told me that I can never forget. But now she denies it. It came out between she and I because her son is asking questions. He is 33. He knows there is something going on that he doesn't understand. There are many lesbians who are married--many. A guy who used to post here said his wife had an affair with a neighbor and he told the bishop and they did nothing. He was still married to her when I last talked to him about 12 or 13 years ago.

CL,

Thank you for these interesting stories and details. I saw a lot of denial also, people would say something and if you asked them about it later they would say it never happened. Not too surprising when the religion requires a lot of denial of reality.

Very interesting about your gay husband and his magnetic attraction to you. This reminds me of a book mentioned in the thread on JS and narcissism, “the human magnet syndrome”. You might find it interesting since you mentioned a couple times how much he needs you.

Thank you for sharing this and it explains a lot to me...why do they flirt and come after us when gay? I appreciate the insider perspective a lot! I hope he is meeting some of your Needs as well as you being there for him. :)

CL,

Wondering one more thing. I know you and the gay hubby are out now, but are all positions in TSCC above bishop reserved for married men? Is there any position unmarried men can hold? Or are men who want to advance in the church basically required to marry? Thus making even more gay/straight marriages? Just wondering thank you!

I believe that single men can't even be a bishop, but can be a counselor. In the singles' wards I was in, they always had a married bishop AND first counselor, but the second counselor was single. I do know the bishops of the singles' wards around here are all married. I don't know about the first counselors.

When I was in high school, there was one seminary teacher who was single. They basically forced him to marry or quit. He got married. I think he was 38 or so. Don't know if he was gay or not. I thought at the time that that was stupid. Also, at that time, there were no women seminary teachers and there are now.

I was thinking the other day about having my boyfriend in my life, the one I waited over 27 years to have sex with. HA HA HA BUT for once in my life, having sex with him was not monitored by ANYONE else. I never had to talk to a bishop about it.

There you have it. That is why they talk about sex with you. I mean they go talk to a man they barely know about sex. They really do NOT have any boundaries in mormonism. I always found it really difficult to deal with as I am a very private person. I swore I would never have to talk to a bishop about my sex life and I lived that way. Not even French kissing as I had been told I had to confess that. AND there I was talking about sex with many men, my boyfriend being gay and how we needed to save him, and how I could get him turned on and blah, blah, blah, blah. I realized not so long ago that we got married to get them out of our lives as it was destroying at least ME. He'd already been destroyed enough all his life. If you can talk to a male stranger about sex, why can't you talk to friends?

I was never told that sex was bad...just that sex with myself was frowned upon. I did not heed that warning and married a Catholic.

Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was never told that sex was bad...just that sex
> with myself was frowned upon. I did not heed that
> warning and married a Catholic.

Hi ho ho!!! Too funny!!!!

Yes imagine it is difficult to overcome that programming! Bad bad bad oh, now it’s ok. I don’t see how the older men manage when they are waiting till their 30s or longer to marry.

Perhaps they just have secret lives.
*****
This was in answer to wandering kololob below but went in the wrong slot! Sorry wanderer!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2019 04:17PM by mel.

I think someone else touched on this. If you spend your teenage years in the church, you're constantly bombarded with "sex = sin." Bad, bad, bad! Don't touch yourself! Go on double dates! No "heavy petting" (aside: what in hell kind of description is that? I get a mental picture of a cat under a shirt).

But the second you have your "celestial" temple marriage, you're expected to immediately procreate like rabbits.

Small wonder sexual tension is rife within the Church. And people being people, we have this desire to share that info because there's a level of competition. Who's got it worse?

wanderingkolobian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And people being people, we have this desire to share that info because there's a level of competition. Who's got it worse?

Yes that could explain their urge to share!

It would be difficult to top the “none for years” stories.

I also commented on your post above in the wrong place.

In my time in RS there were two talks on porn. I didn’t attend too often so there were probably more that I missed.

I wonder if old JS with his many wives would have been against it though. He might have seen porn as useful instruction. He obviously liked variety! I would guess there is nothing in BoM nor D&C against it since I imagine it wasn’t really invented during JS lifetime?

Every once in a while we get some person on here that starts some thread where they seem to be making some veiled suggestion that people ought to have some boundaries in their lives instead of doing things the Correlation way. Because of the peculiar wondrous blessing I got of being nurtured into the amazing thinker I am today by the Correlation program, I am of the thinking that we don't need boundaries because we have the beloved Brethren sacredly micromanaging our lives :) Thus we learn to openly discuss anything with perfect strangers that we don't think of as strangers because of how this wondrous mindset works on us as well assimilated disciples of this dogma.

Hello Honest TB,

I am the OP and I'm not sure I understand your post. I am very sorry if you did not like my topic, which I interpret when you say:
" Every once in a while we get some person on here
> that starts some thread where they seem to be
> making some veiled suggestion that people ought to
> have some boundaries in their lives

I am very sorry if my topic offended you. I really was just trying to understand, in my short time in the church, when I was following directions from my SS teacher to socialize with members, why on earth they would take a casual one-hour lunch or dinner meeting, and tell me about their ex-communications, and husband's lack of "interest" and the length of time they had been "without"...etc.

The wonderful people on the Board have been extremely helpful to me in sharing their experiences and take on my questions, and helping me to understand why oh why the Ward members would seize on my socializing efforts to off-load all their most intimate and traumatic events.

> doing things the Correlation way.

Again, I don't really understand what you mean by this. Was there a way for them to socialize with me that would have been "Correlated?"

> we learn to openly discuss anything with perfect strangers

Yes, they certainly did that!

Again, apologies if I have misinterpreted your post, or if my post seemed like it had some veiled meaning. It did not, it was truly a request to help me understand some of the things that happened to me during my time as a convert.

I really appreciate everyone's input on my topic!!! Thank you all!!!

Hmmmm I started posting here because I saw so many people online that were defending this beloved wondrous & peculiar Church through dishonest means. Thus I became "Honest TBM" to emphasize the importance of people trying to defend the Church to do so with complete honesty and transparency. If a person ever tries to defend the Church through dishonest means then people will have doubts so needlessly. Thus I pounce on dishonest apologetics. For example, DCP who was the director of FARMS at BYU is the epitome of what has been wrong with the world of LDS apologetics. I plan to stop posting here once the risk of anyone trying to defend the Church dishonestly on the internet or anywhere goes away.

I got to warn you that some people here that aren't completely convinced that the LDS church is led by the most honest and transparent leadership, and all those people think that I am just writing satire to show that this Church is silly, dangerous, and a weird cult. However you can prove this for sure quite quickly. Just ask the members online to show you all the links to the Church's up to date financial reports, statistical reports, etc. Then go ask any question you can think of and watch how super fast you get super straightforward honest answers without any runaround or dishonest tactics like "just have faith" :)

Hmmmm you don't know about the Correlation program? It is what has made us people in the Church think in such a wondrously peculiar way :) is your brain not yet correlated? I suppose you could go in to see a Bishop to get started on getting your brain programmed via the Correlation program. Then you won't have to worry about all those crazy ideas like freedom and rights that get in the way of learning to be an obedient lamb.