Hi Mike,
Thank you for your interest in chatting with a member of the Church. What would you like to talk about?

Mike 12:20 PM
Hi. I had a question about Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and their marriages to their follower's wives, like Henry Jacob's wife Zina. Where is that practice permitted anywhere in scriptures?

ComeuntoChrist.org 12:20 PM
Thanks! What prompted your interest in wanting to chat about this topic today?

Mike 12:20 PM
I read the book, "In Sacred Loneliness" and the paper on LDS.org, "Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo" and came across this disturbing practice and wanted to know how official representatives explain it.

ComeuntoChrist.org 12:20 PM
Thanks, give me a few moments to respond. We'll try our best to help you with that!

Now chatting with: Melanie and Rebecca

Melanie 12:21 PM
Hello Mike!

Mike 12:21 PM
The Law of the Priesthood, D&C 132:61, clearly condemns that practice as adulterous. Is there a loophole to the Law of the Priesthood and the 10 Commandments elsewhere in the scriptures?

Melanie 12:22 PM
I'm afraid that I don't understand what you mean by loophole

Mike 12:23 PM
Hello Melanie and Rebecca, can you answer my original quetion?

Melanie 12:23 PM
So you want to know where plural mariage is permitted in the scriptures?

Melanie 12:23 PM
Let me search for some verses for you!

Mike 12:24 PM
Where did God permit polyandry (marrying another man's wife) in the scriptures?
Not polygamy, polyandry.

Melanie 12:24 PM
Oh I see what you mean

Melanie 12:24 PM
It will take me a little bit longer to find the best answer for you. Do you have the time to wait or do you prefer that I answer through an email?

Mike 12:25 PM
Yes. I have time.

Melanie 12:25 PM
perfect

.......15 minutes later........

Melanie 12:40 PM
Ok so, Rebecca helped me with something that she read in the book Saints! As the plural marriage was most of the times for giving the women the opportunity to enter to the Celestial Kingdom and not for the physical pleasure or this time. Those kind of situations were similar. They were not married to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young for this time but for eternity. I don't know each case or situation but we know that a lot of those women were married to people who were not members or simply didn't were worthy to enter to the temple but they wanted to be sealed to be able to have eternal life. Practically the meaning of polyandry is the marriage of one woman to more than one man, typically involves shared financial, residential, and sexual resources, and children are often raised communally. These sealings didn't work that way so they didn't really practiced polyandry

Mike 12:40 PM
Henry Jacobs served 8 missions for the church while both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young stayed behind and made babies with his wife. Where is that permitted?

Mike 12:42 PM
Your explanation seems more like speculation and justification, not scriptural or doctrinal. And in fact that marrying other men's wives completely violates 2 of the 10 commandments and the Law of the Priesthood in 5 different ways, making it adultery. right?

Melanie 12:45 PM
It is not adultery because of the official meaning of adultery but I do think that she committed something that was not part of the commandments. But Zina, Henry Jacobs wife eventually became the president of Relief Society and if she did I do believe that she had to go through a process of repentance. It is wonderful how Jesus Christ atonement permit that even when someone should know what to do and decides to do other thing, they can still enter to the Celestial Kingdom if they repent.

Mike 12:49 PM
So blame the victim? Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had no part it making babies with another mans wife after sending him off on a mission overseas? wow.

Melanie 12:50 PM
I thought you were asking about Zina

Melanie 12:51 PM
I'm not blaming the victim

Mike 12:51 PM
I'm asking about where is that practice of polyandry (marrying another man's wife) permitted by God?

Melanie 12:51 PM
It is not

Mike 12:52 PM
So JS and BY committed adultery by making babies with Henry's wife, right?

Melanie 12:52 PM
But if we are talking about polyandry who sin was Zina, not Joseph or Brigham because Polygamy was permitted

Rebecca 12:52 PM
And the definition of "adultery" is to have inmate relations with someone who is not their spouse.

Rebecca 12:53 PM
Zina was married to Brigham Young, so it was lawful for her to have a child with him.

Mike 12:54 PM
How could she be married to Brigham when she was already married to Henry? That's the question.

Chat Session has ended.

Polygamy is permitted by the scriptures though - it's all over the Old Testament.

As an old folk song has it -
Solomon and David led very wicked lives
They went wenchin' every evenin",
wi' other people's wives

But sometimes in the evening, when their conscience gave them qualms
Solomon wrote the proverbs and David wrote the psalms

I heard one definition of insanity is "doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome."

How many times have you done this with the same "the chat has ended" outcome?

I know, I know.....how can they justify singing the praises of a blah, blah, blah....heard all that too many times as well.

But, if attention is your goal...you got it!

To be fair, in life, sometimes doing the same thing does produce different results, but it's like one of those lever machines that people sit at all day in Las Vegas. Eventually they will pay out, but not necessarily.

* Not necessarily while you're there.

Slot machines are programmed to let you win once in a while to keep you there. The church isn't, so when you keep doing the same thing, nothing different will happen.

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Slot machines are programmed to let you win once
> in a while to keep you there. The church isn't,
> so when you keep doing the same thing, nothing
> different will happen.

Yes and no. If people reaped no reward or pleasure from church membership then no one would stay. One could argue that there is also the prospect of a delayed reward - "pie in the sky when I die" as someone once termed it. But for other people, the rewards might just be nore basic like enjoying some socialization and/or hymn singing, and that reward allows them rationalize the less pleasant parts.

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I heard one definition of insanity is "doing the
> same thing and expecting a different outcome."
>
> How many times have you done this with the same
> "the chat has ended" outcome?
>
> I know, I know.....how can they justify singing
> the praises of a blah, blah, blah....heard all
> that too many times as well.
>
> But, if attention is your goal...you got it!

The result isn't the same. I probably have not asked that question in a year. At least this time I got them to admit that there is no doctrinal justification for marrying another man's wife. But they just rationalized it by saying, "Oh well, she must have repented for screwing around on Henry, since she became a RS Prez."
So they start with the conclusion, these men were Prophets, so they had to be justified, or God would have killed them, and work backwards.
Classic CULT conditioning.

Can't speak for Korihor's intentions, but I am sure he is planting seeds and cog dis with some of the missionaries. The expected result "this chat has ended" is a sign they knew they didn't have any good answers and that they are afraid of what he is telling them.

Obviously the result in the communications are going to appear as if he is not getting anywhere with these missionaries, but what do you expect them to say? They have to pretend the church is true and that they totally believe in it. That doesn't mean deep down they are questioning due to this new information.

Yeah, you let that one get away from you. I wouldn't call it a checkmate question at all. Maybe it could be if executed better?

Checkmate results in a win. Jordan is deeply involved in a stalemate, which can't be won.

I was actually responding to the OP, not Jordan.

Q: Do we know (EVIDENCE!) that joe was boinking Zina or any of the others' wives?


seriously.

It's done by taking documented evidence and extrapolating...

We take Oliver's word that he saw Joe boinking Fanny in the barn, then we add John Bennett's word that he performed abortions for Joe, and finally: there are two 'used' lamb intestine condoms in the Cottonwood Canyon "secret" Vault, that when you turn the lights off, you see faint little golden sparks shooting off from the 'content'. They were preserved by two of Joe's polygamous wives! Do they contain Joe's sperm? Well, why else would they sparkle!!!




Oh ye of little flatus!

"Flatus" comprises further evidence that you are descended from the Roman imperial line.

What!? Being the leading pretender to the Throne of Moctezuma isn't enough!!!

You'd rather I cavort with Romulus and Remus, the Beavis & Butthead of the Po Valley?!?

I would certainly take umbrage, but it's Low Tea! Cucumber sandwiches, cold cuts, pickled fish served tickled pink, pies, tarts, and etc., are on the menu!! It's Low Tea because we sit at the old horigotatsu in the kids' room.

So no umbrage (chocolate is my fav!!) today.

Watch it, Marcus Flatulus. Don't throw shade on Beavis and Butthead!

"But Zina, Henry Jacobs wife eventually became the president of Relief Society and if she did I do believe that she had to go through a process of repentance."

LOL! What? Really? Talk about blame the victim. And please, why would she have to repent of something people admired her for?

Jeez, she enjoyed the power and influence from Brigham while I believe she still loved Henry, the lover of her youth.

And Brigham would have never given her a passing glance had not Smith wanted to "marry her for eternity."

I was just as ignorant as this church representative but no longer. My great great great grandmother was a victim of both Smith and Young and turned it into power and influence in a remote backwater.

very true, it's amazing that they want to say Zina had to repent and the glorious atonement bla bla, and yet Brigham didn't have to repent because polygamy is allowed?

Zina was a strange woman. But at the same time it's the nature of women to bail on their man when a more powerful man comes along. They lust and are looking for greater security. Joseph and Briggy were all about letting women bounce around if they wanted to and they were promised a higher salvation in the mormon celestial kingdom. In modern terms it's called hypergammy.

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Zina was a strange woman.

I agree.

> But at the same time
> it's the nature of women to bail on their man when
> a more powerful man comes along.

I totally disagree.

Zina cared for Henry as he was dying. Things went well beyond her control unless she wanted to leave the church which she didn't want to do.

That she capitalized on her condition isn't grabbing for security.

Read In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton and her journal entries specifically.

Judging half of humanity they way you did in talking about my ancestor is offensive.

> But at the same time
> it's the nature of women to bail on their man when
> a more powerful man comes along.

Absolute bullshit.

Hey, kori, looks like you can still take a kid just out of high school, who has deliberately been steeped in a superficial, noncritical view of Mormonism, and you can talk them into a corner. The fact that they have to defend a religion constructed on a foundation of lies and deceit makes their difficult job essentially impossible.

So, yet again, you have demonstrated that it is possible to outmaneuver a young fish trapped in a barrel.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, kori, looks like you can still take a kid
> just out of high school, who has deliberately been
> steeped in a superficial, noncritical view of
> Mormonism, and you can talk them into a corner.
> The fact that they have to defend a religion
> constructed on a foundation of lies and deceit
> makes their difficult job essentially impossible.
>
> So, yet again, you have demonstrated that it is
> possible to outmaneuver a young fish trapped in a
> barrel.
What is it with exMORmONs infantalizing grown ass adult official representatives of the CULT that exploited me and 5 generations of my family before me?
And how do you know how old they are?
I have kids younger than most missionaries, who are in the Army defending your rights, not defending rapists.

I didn't infantilize anyone. The vast majority of missionaries are called when they are either 18 or 19 years old, which means they are under age 22 when you get them on the phone. "Just barely out of high school" may be a bit of a stretch for describing a 21 year old, but not much of one.

I doubt senior missionaries are assigned to do phone chat work. None of the senior missionaries I've known did that. So, I think assuming they are around 19 years old is pretty reasonable, not that it matters much.

As for your children defending my rights, I too was in the Army, and at the time I was well aware of the fact that the connection between my job and the rights of people in the US was pretty attenuated. There was a closer connection of me defending the rights of the people of the country I was serving in, but even that was less than crystal clear. And I really don't get the relevance.

Fish. Barrel.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn't infantilize anyone. The vast majority of
> missionaries are called when they are either 18 or
> 19 years old, which means they are under age 22
> when you get them on the phone. "Just barely out
> of high school" may be a bit of a stretch for
> describing a 21 year old, but not much of one.
>
> I doubt senior missionaries are assigned to do
> phone chat work. None of the senior missionaries
> I've known did that. So, I think assuming they are
> around 19 years old is pretty reasonable, not that
> it matters much.
>
> As for your children defending my rights, I too
> was in the Army, and at the time I was well aware
> of the fact that the connection between my job and
> the rights of people in the US was pretty
> attenuated. There was a closer connection of me
> defending the rights of the people of the country
> I was serving in, but even that was less than
> crystal clear. And I really don't get the
> relevance.
>
> Fish. Barrel.

Bullshit.
I've got kids younger than them, who are fighting America's worst enemies right now. And these "kids" can't handle a serious question raised by numerous scholarly books on the subject, by their own Mormon authors?
This is the corporations official communication channel with the world. It starts out speaking with "comeuntochrist"
As if you're speaking with Christ and he sends his minions in to answer questions, not by actually answering any serious questions about the ethics and morals of the man who's praises they want you to sing, but by getting answers,
your address, your email, IP Address, where you attend church, who you report to, to report you, to track you, like their attorneys have me, for speaking up about the rampant abuse I've given depositions in where most of my childhood friends won millions of dollars for their silence? Yeah, I'm well aware of the abuse in my own extended family, in my Ward, in my Sister's Ward, in my children's Ward, my ward where I raised my children. I hardly know a Mormon family that didn't have somebody in it who wasn't abused as a child. Rampant abuse, all followed the same pattern you follow.

Silence the critic.
Discredit them.
Question their honesty.
Ridicule them.
Assail their character.
If that doesn't work,
Deny any abuse happened.
If that doesn't work, threaten.
If that doesn't work, flee.
So far you're just at the "Deny abuse happened" stage thankfully.
This shit's like the matrix and the MORGUE has Agent Smith's all over the internet. Especially here.
ESPECIALLY at MORmON.org, which now redirects you to "Comeuntochrist" (Latterdaydanite) who won't actually answer questions, he just gives you over to the 'innocent naive MORmON girls so people like you will feel sorry for them and not ask them any hard questions, since they could get their feelings hurt.
I've got a daughter who's younger than them in the military, and she's getting married this weekend, to a soldier. My grandson's Mom is younger than them. Or who fucking knows?
WHo fucking cares how old they are.
Answer my GD question.
They didn't.
No Mormon does.
Ever.
I'd love an honest answer for once.
They all lie.
It's bullshit.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2019 12:14PM by Tevai.

Wake up.

Scratch whatever itches.

Go pee.

Place chip on shoulder.

Call the missionaries.

Post on RFM.

Repeat.

I like seeing these dialogs. Even if they all end with the Morg's rep's hanging up.

How many folks here post about a question posed to them on their mission, or some other challenge, that they never forgot? Something that festered and ultimately led to their shelf collapsing?

In a year, or two, or ten... someone may turn up here saying "some guy challenged me on the chat line with a question I couldn't answer..."

If all the mishie can do is hang up, then I suspect that they're going to remember the questions.

Koriwhore is planting seeds of doubt in these mishies.

Gordon B. Stinky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Koriwhore is planting seeds of doubt in these
> mishies.

Keep bringing up my ancestor Kori. Maybe one of them will look her up and have a similar reaction that I did when I did.

Love this...

Rebecca 12:53 PM
Zina was married to Brigham Young, so it was lawful for her to have a child with him.

Mike 12:54 PM
How could she be married to Brigham when she was already married to Henry? That's the question.

It was almost as if they were trying to say, it couldn't be a sin because it was JOSEPH SMITH and BRIGHAM YOUNG doing it.

The prophet can never lead you astray, and lucky for them they get to decide what astray is.

I think it's simple. If you are not in agreement with what certain posters choose to post, then you can skip over them. You don't even have to open them up.

If people choose to ignore said posts, then they eventually fall of the first page.

Personally, my life is good enough that I don't feel the need to challenge the church's call center operatives. I do believe however, that an organization that actively bombards us with ads bragging about answering questions should be challenged. From the ops post, the church gives up when the going gets tough.

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Personally, my life is good enough that I don't
> feel the need to challenge the church's call
> center operatives. I do believe however, that an
> organization that actively bombards us with ads
> bragging about answering questions should be
> challenged. From the ops post, the church gives up
> when the going gets tough.

Yes, I used to think Kori was just wanting to pick fights. Now I think he is performing a service. If he has the right questions and poses them in the right way...

It is easy to offend people and they do silly things like think Zina needed to repent for following her prophet. WOW! The force of cogdis is strong.

Mormons have developed the ability to dodge / avoid responsibility for anything that smacks of shortcomings!


In general, they live in a FantasyLand, so IMHO, there aren't any Checkmates.

I am interested in knowing if those two condoms EOD talked about that were in some of JS plural wives is something that EOD just made up or is there some documentation to shore that info up.

correction: in their possession.