Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: Alan XL ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 01:52AM

I often hear that Rigdon, Cowdrey etc helped write the BOM but I have never ever seen supporting documents.

If they did why didn't they write it down somewhere?

Or if they did would it be held by the church?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 02:32AM

To the extent that Rigdon and/or Cowdery contributed any significant portions of the contents of the Book of Mormon, they would not likely have ever had any strong inclination to make that fact public for the simple reason that to do so would be to admit to being active participants in a fraud.

We of course know that Cowdery was intimately involved in the production of the Book of Mormon, especially at the time when most of the substantive work and actual publication took place, so it's not a huge stretch to wonder whether he also contributed content. That's huge as far as circumstantial evidence goes. Adding to that is the fact that Oliver Cowdery for a time lived in the same town (Poultney, Vermont) when and where Ethan Smith (author of "View of the Hebrews") served as the pastor for the Congregationalist church that Cowdery's family attended. Since there are many overlapping themes in the View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon, that's another huge piece of circumstantial evidence.

As for Rigdon, according to the official history, IIRC, he did not come into Joseph Smith's world until after the Book of Mormon was produced. But a secretive collaboration was certainly possible and cannot be absolutely ruled out. Sidney Rigdon figures prominently in the "Spalding Manuscript" theory surrounding the origins of the Book of Mormon.

One significant bit of circumstantial evidence in favor is the fact that Sidney Rigdon lived in the same area as Solomon Spalding and was a frequent visitor to a print shop to which Spalding had entrusted a manuscript--which manuscript mysteriously disappeared from the print shop. According to the Rigdon-Spalding theory, Rigdon stole the relevant manuscript before it could be printed and published by Spalding in book form. Spalding actually had more than one manuscript and they involved themes and concepts that are obviously similar to those of the Book of Mormon. The "Manuscript Found" story (which is the one that Rigdon is suspected of stealing) supposedly included the notion that the American Indians are descendants of the Jews and included the names Nephi and Lehi. (This is according to Spalding's brother.)

Rigdon was also a protege of the famous preacher Alexander Campbell and much of the doctrinal content of the Book of Mormon is substantially the same as Campbellite beliefs.

http://sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm


One of the follies that many "debunkers" fall into, IMHO, is that they always approach these theories as though the Book of Mormon has to be wholly and completely derived from just one source (e.g. the View of the Hebrews OR Spalding's Manuscript Found). To me, it seems quite obvious that the Book of Mormon is a hodge-podge of themes and ideas that were well-known and circulating at the same time and in the same region that Joseph Smith was operating in. The anti-masonry political sentiments are there. Several ideas from the View of the Hebrews are there. Spalding's ideas seem to be in there. Of course the KJV bible is in there in abundance. The themes of the American war for independence are in there. And so on...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: snowball ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 01:33PM

Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> One of the follies that many "debunkers" fall
> into, IMHO, is that they always approach these
> theories as though the Book of Mormon has to be
> wholly and completely derived from just one source
> (e.g. the View of the Hebrews OR Spalding's
> Manuscript Found). To me, it seems quite obvious
> that the Book of Mormon is a hodge-podge of themes
> and ideas that were well-known and circulating at
> the same time and in the same region that Joseph
> Smith was operating in.


Well said!

I've always found it interesting that those who want to completely dismiss the possibility of Sidney Rigdon using Spaulding's manuscript as a source boldly declare that notion to be completely "debunked"--especially when their alternative theory involves an angel and golden plates. But there's no reason a variety of materials came into play, including Rigdon and Spaulding's manuscript.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: MarkJ ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 02:36PM

The Anti-Masonic movement at the time the BoM was being composed was intense in the U.S. This anti-masonry fervor even resulted in the creation of the first political third-party in the country. William Morgan of Batavia, NY was thought to have been murdered (1826) by Masons because he had threatened to publish and expose masonic secrets. Batavia is about 60 miles from Palmyra, NY. That entire region was immersed in the contention over masonry and the issue dominated national politics.

The BoM has numerous warnings about "secret combinations" which at the time would have been clearly understood to be references to Free Masonry. In essence, regarding this question at least, the BoM is a political tract. Ironically however, Smith became a Mason himself, rapidly advanced through its degrees, and then adopted the rituals of Free Masonry to use as the LDS temple ceremony. The widow of William Morgan and her second husband eventually joined the LDS church, and she was eventually sealed to Smith as one of his many wives.

There are a number of sources of inspiration for the BoM. The then recent discovery of the Rossetta Stone had catapulted interest in the ancient Egyptian culture and language. Advances in astronomy are another source. So too were the explorations of the dawning Victorian era and the boom in international trade. That might explain the link to names Moroni and Comoros. (https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon330.htm). In fact, the closer you read, the harder it is not to find an exclusive 19th century context for the BoM.

Overall though, the Rigdon/Spaulding/Smith/Cowdrey connection is remarkable.

http://www.mormonthink.com/mormonstudiesrigdon.htm

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 07:36PM

as one of his plural wives. Lucinda was the widow of William Morgan. That right there is extremely compelling evidence that the William Morgan affair and the related anti-masonry movement were not matters that were outside of Joseph Smith's sphere of interests and concerns.

One psychological study (from over 100 years ago) of the fictional names made up by Joseph Smith suggested that many of those names were derives from Masonry and the Morgan affair.

Example: "Master Mahan" is really "Master Mason". (All you have to do phonetically is change the "h" to an "s" and...voila!)

The same study also suggested that all or most of the words made up by Joseph Smith that start with a "Mor" and end with an "n" or "m" sound are likely due to the fact that the name "Morgan" was a prominent name in Joseph Smith's mind due to his fascination with the William Morgan story.

Although this one is a bit better disguised than "Master Mahan", the psychological study posits that Mahonri Moriancumer (the "Brother of Jared") is essentially a disguised version of "Masonry Morgan". (Again you phonetically only need to change one "h" to an "s" to get "masonry" and the "mor" and "n" elements of Morgan's name are there too.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 02:34AM

Unfortunately, we'll prob never know.

I would like to know how much of the BoM is 'directly' lifted/copied from the Bible, % wise.

"Who really wrote the BoM?" is an excellent book, btw...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 12:08PM

I suspect most of the BOM sermons were old Rigdon sermons.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 12:51PM

In Morland, it's either 'Ye shall know the truth'


or (mutually exclusive)


"It's not necessary for your individual salvation/exhaltation, but it will be revealed in the next world".


We understand that everything we experience now is only a Dress Rehearsal for the 'real life'...

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 01:34PM

I’m not certain whether or not Rigdon helped with creating the Book of Mormon, but one thing’s for sure: his fiery speeches against the “ gentiles” did more to rile them up against the “ saints” than most anything else. This was especially true when he would spout off about exterminating them. I don’t know how in the world he managed to have a daughter that had common sense and the guts to stand up to JS.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 02:18PM

I read Van Wagonen's book on Rigdon https://www.amazon.com/Sidney-Rigdon-Portrait-Religious-Excess/dp/156085197X/ref=sr_1_1

His writing style was nothing like the BoM. It was, however, precisely like much of the D&C. He may have helped create the BoM, but I doubt very much that he wrote any of it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 07:50PM

I have a hard time believing that Rigdon would help write the BOM and keep quiet about it. Remember that Joseph tried to Excommunicate him, and slander his name. The church voted against Joeseph and Rigdon was sustained as the 2nd counselor, even though Joe hated him, and whined about having to carry "the old man." Joe also tried to seduce his teenage daughter, to which Rigdon got in a really big fight with Joseph over. Some say he didn't try to destroy Joe because he was scared of the Danites, or Daughters of zion, but reading early mormonism Rigdon doesn't seem like a man who could get/stay scared easily.


These are enough of a reason to come clean if he did something deceitful. Rigdon was a decent guy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 11:59PM

been willing to out himself as a fraud just to get revenge for being disrespected and pushed aside by Joseph Smith. Reputation was everything and his only potential for future standing and vocation in any community would depend on him maintaining his reputation. If he basically admitted that he had been part of a huge fraud and hoax, under circumstances where it was clear that he was only "coming clean" to destroy Joseph Smith, his reputation would have been completely ruined, especially as far as his vocation as a religious leader was concerned.

It's the same thing that applies to all of the Witnesses. TBMs always point to the fact that none of them subsequently confessed or "came clean" as evidence that everything they said was true. But there would really be no motivation for them to ever confess that they had participated in perpetrating a fraud and hoax. Nobody was offering them million dollar rewards for whistleblowing. The only thing they would accomplish by doing something like that would be to trash their own reputations and become targets of intense anger from the Mormons who followed Joseph Smith. They also would have been well aware of the way that Joseph Smith could crank out "revelations"...and the fact that he could get a "revelation" claiming that Rigdon or any Witness who began changing their story was simply now a slave of the Devil doing the Devil's work.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: June 27, 2019 12:01AM

if there's any truth in the Spalding theory, then Rigdon would be admitting to not only participating in a fraud and hoax with Joseph Smith, but also the THEFT and then plagiarism of Spalding's manuscript.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: normdeplume ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 08:46PM

Alan XL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I often hear that Rigdon, Cowdrey etc helped write
> the BOM but I have never ever seen supporting
> documents.

Some say that lazy Holy Joe got his hands on the following book and pilfered words and stories to his heart's content.

I prefer to think his pals (named above by Alan XL), who recruited him for his talents as a natural charismatic, fed him stuff like the following and then made out as if the lad had had a revelation.

http://wordtree.org/thelatewar/

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: June 26, 2019 11:31PM

Many who knew him said old Sid was never quite the same in his ganectizoid after being dragged by a horse.

He had a brilliant albiet twisted mind but he lacked the needed charisma.

Then he met up with Holy Joe in Kirtland who incidentally claimed they were total strangers.

There is strong evidence that they had known each other quite well since at least 1827.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: June 27, 2019 04:25AM

He's visited here in the past, and I respect his views tremendously. I'm not one who's made a serious study of the BOM, so I don't have any strong views on its origins. I keep it simple: a fraud is a fraud is a fraud...

http://sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/rigdon1.htm

>>In this and an upcoming companion essay I provide an analysis of the two prevalent authorship theories for The Book of Mormon. They are the so-called Spalding-Rigdon Theory and the Smith-as-Sole-Author Theory. These theories represent extremes in a range of possibilities. I will present evidence consistent with the Spalding-Rigdon Theory and inconsistent with the Smith-as-Sole-Author Theory. Some of the evidence that I present could be consistent with other theories, provided that they acknowledge Rigdon as a significant participant. I will also summarize the strongest evidence against the Spalding-Rigdon Theory.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: June 28, 2019 09:45AM

There's also a site presenting Craig's and his team's theories concerning a collective origin for the BOM which I find very compelling, although there's no "smoking gun".

You can check it out here: https://mormonleaks.com/

Scroll down to see the various presentations.

It's serious work.

Tom in Paris

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: blueskyutah2 ( )
Date: June 28, 2019 02:45AM

In my opinion, Dan Vogel is the best source for Book of Mormon Authorship. Here's a link to an interview on Mormon Stories.

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/dan-vogel-theories-of-book-of-mormon-authorship/

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 28, 2019 11:32AM

It’s a nice whodunnit. Obviously someone had to write this mishmash of 19th century memes because Mormon definitely didn’t.

The book first went on sale in March of 1830. The church was founded shortly thereafter. Some of us would call it conspiracy to defraud, but all religions are made up. It’s not easy to invent a religion with broad appeal.

Mormonism fell into the trap of fundamentalism, which left it in a difficult position. Left us in a difficult position. It’s very irresponsible to set up a religion that causes the truth to wreck lives.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: June 28, 2019 07:09PM

Joseph destroyed the notes...

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
  *******   **     **   *******    ******   ********  
 **     **  **     **  **     **  **    **  **     ** 
 **     **  **     **  **         **        **     ** 
  ********  **     **  ********   **        ********  
        **  **     **  **     **  **        **        
 **     **  **     **  **     **  **    **  **        
  *******    *******    *******    ******   **