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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 15, 2019 03:56PM

https://www.prri.org/research/increasing-support-for-religiously-based-service-refusals/

When it comes to gays a full 33% of Americans believe it is acceptable to deny them service.

Discrimination against minorities is on the rise. 15% of Americans believe businesses should be able to discriminate against blacks. 5 yrs ago only 10% did.

So take heart atheists, Americans don't hate you as much as they hate gays, but they hate you slightly more than they hate blacks.

Why?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2019 03:16PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 15, 2019 04:42PM

> So take heart atheists,
> Americans don't hate
> you as much as gays,
>
> but slightly more than
> they hate blacks.
>
> Why?


Why not? Surely you don't want to force people to give up their prejudices? I'm not aware of any laws here in the USA governing whom one can hate, or not want to tolerate.

But there are laws that prohibit people in America from acting on many of their prejudices.

With regard to atheists specifically, Portland, OR is apparently on the cutting edge:

"An amendment to the civil rights code of Portland, Oregon, extends protections against discrimination in employment, housing, and public accommodations to atheists, agnostics, and other 'non-believers.'

"Religious facilities are expressly exempt."
--https://www.jacksonlewis.com/publication/portland-oregon-bars-discrimination-against-atheists-agnostics

I love that last line! Religious institutions/businesses MAY discriminate against atheists!

I wonder if there are similar safeguards in place anywhere allowing atheists to refuse to hire mormons, etc.?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 15, 2019 04:49PM

I'm confident the Union of American Atheists will immediately mobilize its proselytizing force and its Political Action Committee to effect change in those unfair laws.

Dave, could you please submit a memorandum on the topic to the Standing Committee?

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Posted by: Aloysius ( )
Date: July 20, 2019 12:20AM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder if there are similar safeguards in place
> anywhere allowing atheists to refuse to hire
> mormons, etc.?

Absolutely they can. The first amendment allows non-profit groups whose purpose includes advocacy for certain issues to exclude a person from membership or employment if that person doesn't agree with the group's positions on those issues.

"The forced inclusion of an unwanted person in a group infringes the group's freedom of expressive association if the presence of that person affects in a significant way the group's ability to advocate public or private viewpoints." Boy Scouts of America et al. v. Dale, 530 U.S. 640, 648 (2000) (citing New York State Club Assn., Inc. v. City of New York, 487 U. S. 1, 13 (1988)).

This protects atheists exactly as it does christians or boy scouts.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2019 12:22AM by Aloysius.

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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: July 15, 2019 06:45PM

The problem is, the people who do believe it's OK are the people who vote.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 15, 2019 10:14PM

slskipper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem is, the people who do believe it's OK
> are the people who vote.

^crux of the problem right there.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."

Bertrand Russell



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2019 11:30PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: July 16, 2019 01:17AM

In other words, I don't care what they believe, what color or religion they are (or aren't), where they come from - their dollar is just as green as the next guy's. And it IS.

Isn't that the essence of capitalism??

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: July 16, 2019 08:58AM

So very few people know that fact and none of them have discriminated against me in any way.

I think if some atheists suffer grief at times it might be because of loudmouthed rudeness and not because they don't believe in god.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: July 19, 2019 01:17AM

That has been my experience too, Cheryl. I don't make a big deal of it, and have not suffered discrimination because of it.

Back in January, when my son was hospitalized for renal failure, he called me in desperation because the hospital chaplain would not leave him alone. The guy apparently said "We don't have to talk religion. I just want to visit." Son told me, "Mom, I have enough on my plate already. I don't want to deal with this guy. Do I have to put up with him?" (Son has been atheist for many years.)

I assured him that he didn't. The following day, I got on the phone with the administrator of the hospital and explained that visits from the chaplain, no matter how well-intentioned, were distressing to my son, whose life was already being turned upside-down. (I think son wrote "Unaffiliated" on his admission sheet. That's what I write when I am hospitalized.)

The administrator was VERY understanding, and the chaplain did not set foot in Son's room again.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: July 19, 2019 04:58AM

I think you're onto something here, Cheryl.

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Posted by: Leo ( )
Date: July 16, 2019 09:44AM

Being black or gay is not a choice, but being atheist is a position. Plus toxic forms of atheism are everywhere now, and just as nasty as religious bigotry.

http://theconversation.com/why-the-arguments-of-the-new-atheists-are-often-just-as-violent-as-religion-95185

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Posted by: Jimbo ( )
Date: July 19, 2019 03:58PM

Religiousmfolks,have had it pretty much their way for centuries and now they have to,deal,with non believer Tough stuff . I don't go out of my way to tell everyone I'm Athiest but don't include me in your religious rituals in the workplace Christmas Easter good Frisay etc Why is that stuff acceptable at work anyway? Ok some of it is secular but I don't like that crap either

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Posted by: Jimbo ( )
Date: July 19, 2019 04:09PM

The article you provided is full of apologetics for Muslim fanatics 911 was,most certainly about religion They did murder 3000 people that day thinking Allah would give them many many blessings and rewards,in the afterlife Name ONE predominantly Mulim nation that has even a minimal respect for basic human rights . Yea keep thinking because you nor I can name one Islam is a violent religion.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: July 16, 2019 10:15AM

This is a complex issue. The trouble with the article sighted by the OP is that it doesn't specify what are the services that small business owners are willing to discriminate against, and what are the small businesses in question? When people enter into contracts that are long term and intimate they have to base their decisions on shared values and morals.

Let's examine the housing question: If a person thinks gays couples are sinners and breaking a law then the logic would follow that their integrity is questionable. The landlord will discriminate because they are afraid of getting robbed.

Discrimination is also quite apparent in the form of ethnic minorities only hiring their own relatives and friends on construction crews. There are many times I drive past a construction sight and it's all Hispanics. The percentage of business owners who discriminate is probably much higher than 25%.

But last I checked businesses are allowed to discriminate if their are less than 6 full time employees according to the Americans with disability legislation.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: July 16, 2019 10:17AM

Just replace the word "Atheist" with "black" or "jew".

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Posted by: Leo ( )
Date: July 16, 2019 10:32AM

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just replace the word "Atheist" with "black" or
> "jew".

This is such an incredibly crass and clumsy reply that it beggars belief (for wont of a better phrase!).

Unless you go around with a Richard Dawkins pin badge, or yapping at the top of your voice about how atheist you are, then no one's going to know you are atheist.

Not exactly like being black, where your entire appearance is a giveaway (unless you are a very light skinned biracial). You don't have ancestors who were brought over on slave ships for being atheist, or relatives who died in concentration camps or pogroms for being atheist.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: July 16, 2019 10:51AM

And that common sense observation how atheists aren't exactly obvious unless they draw attention to that reality.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 18, 2019 06:27PM

So people are supposed to hide their attributes in order to earn their civil rights?

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Posted by: Gheco ( )
Date: July 18, 2019 11:48PM

I miss Christopher Hitchens.

Wish he were still around to comment on such matters, and would love to hear his thoughts on the current White House happenings.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 19, 2019 12:11AM

Are people to hide who they are in order to "fit in?" Is that the way an open society functions?

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 19, 2019 01:25AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are people to hide who they are in order to "fit
> in?" Is that the way an open society functions?

It has in the past.
Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were deists, mainly because being atheist was heavily discouraged. But atheists were not antagonistic towards theists up until recently.
Theists have a long history of cruelty towards atheists, going back to Socrates,
At least.
New Atheists are like the kid who has been picked on his whole life, who decides he is not going to let people be mean to him anymore and stands up for himself.
I say its high time people like Sam Harris, Dawkins stick up for reason and science. Not in a mean spirited way, but like intellectual ninjas.
Fuck religion.
Its just a form of exploitation.
Empathy is all you need.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2019 01:32AM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 16, 2019 03:32PM

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/why-are-americans-still-uncomfortable-with-atheism

"Americans, in large numbers, still do not want atheists teaching their children, or marrying them. They would, according to surveys, prefer a female, gay, Mormon, or Muslim President to having an atheist in the White House, and some of them do not object to attempts to keep nonbelievers from holding other offices, even when the office is that of notary public. Atheists are not welcome in the Masonic Lodge, and while the Boy Scouts of America has opened its organization to gays and to girls, it continues to bar any participant who will not pledge “to do my duty to God.”

So why choose an identity that is just a reaction to an irrational belief system, just to alienate yourself from your fellow men?

"It is also a refreshing look beyond the so-called “new atheists” who have lately dominated the conversation surrounding unbelief. Gray does not brook what he describes as their “tedious re-run of a Victorian squabble between science and religion,” and, in contrast to Moore and Kramnick, who believe that new atheists like Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins have generated an “Atheist Awakening,” Gray dismisses them in a single chapter. “New atheists have directed their campaign against a narrow segment of religion while failing to understand even that small part,” he writes. By Gray’s account, they ignore polytheism and animism almost entirely, while insisting on reading verses of Genesis or lines of the Nicene Creed as if they were primitive scientific theories. Not all monotheists are literalists, and, for many of us, both now and throughout history, the Garden of Eden is not a faulty hypothesis about evolution but a rich symbolic story about good and evil.

Gray’s larger complaint is that the new atheists fail to offer a more coherent moral vision than the one they want to replace. The strategy they champion, scientific ethics, has been tried before, with a notable lack of success. Auguste Comte and his fellow nineteenth-century positivists envisioned a Grand Pontiff of Humanity who would preside alongside scientist-priests; unfortunately, scientists at the time were practicing phrenology. Later on, evolutionary humanists and monists replaced God’s order with “scientific” anthropologies, then constructed racial hierarchies and put white Europeans on top. Today, the voguish version of science as religion is transhumanism, which claims that technology will overcome human limitations both physical and mental, perhaps through bioengineering or artificial intelligence or cyborgs that can carry around the contents of our brains. Gray is not sanguine about such developments, should they ever occur, because we already have a model of the mayhem that takes place when some mortals are granted godlike powers: “Anyone who wants a glimpse of what a post-human future might be like should read Homer.”

On the whole, Gray is a glass-half-empty kind of guy, and what others regard as novel or promising he often sees as derivative or just plain dumb. He argues, for instance, that secular humanism is really monotheism in disguise, where humankind is God and salvation can be achieved through our own efforts rather than through divine intervention. Unlike the linguist—and new atheist—Steven Pinker, Gray regards the idea that the world is getting better as self-evidently silly. “The cumulative increase of knowledge in science has no parallel in ethics or politics,” he points out. Religions are still thriving, as are wars between them, and secular regimes have wrought as much, if not more, havoc under the auspices of Jacobinism, Bolshevism, Nazism, and Maoism."

"Christians ignorant of their own history, for instance, will be surprised to learn that their earliest ancestors in the faith were themselves ridiculed as “atheists” because they refused to participate in polytheistic worship: in Greek, atheos means “without gods,” not anti-God. Meanwhile, those who came to atheism via the new atheists might be startled to find that many of their intellectual forebears did not wage war on religion, or even feel any distaste for it.

In fairness, contemporary American atheists may be inclined to wage war on religion because religion has been waging war on them for so long."

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: July 20, 2019 12:07AM

My son - the same one I wrote about before - was an outstanding Boy Scout. He was awarded the Eagle Award, and was planning to go on and organize and lead a troop of his own. He excelled at the outdoorsy kind of stuff the kids did, like making a fire without matches, orienteering, living rough, etc.

He ran into the religious brick wall because he would not allege belief in a deity. Good friends told him things like, "Just tell them you were baptized into your Dad's Presbyterian church as a kid, but don't attend much any more. You don't have to make a big thing about it."

But to Son, honesty was more important. He wanted to demonstrate that you can be a person of moral standards and ethical behavior without having to cite beliefs in a deity. They wouldn't have any of it.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 20, 2019 12:21AM

He stood up to "the charlatans with their quivering lips." You should be proud (I'm sure you are) of the man.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2019 12:21AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 11:14PM


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Posted by: Birdman ( )
Date: July 16, 2019 03:40PM

The unfortunate problem is that having once been duped rather than being careful, so many are standing in line to be duped again. That's what keeps the charlatans with their quivering lips in business.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 16, 2019 03:42PM

"The charlatans with their quivering lips."

That is superb.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: July 16, 2019 03:57PM

In my fevered mind, 'atheists' are people who want to define for themselves what is important and what isn't within the realm of religion, i.e, "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods". The stretch from one end of the religion spectrum to the other is HUGE!

One who attempts such an undertaking, that is, thinking for oneself, is ALWAYS going to find him/herself at odds with members of his/her community/tribe. When you start getting near 90% being against you, you're not long for this life.

I would like to think that the 1/4 of Americans noted above is a smaller figure than what it would have been 20, 50 and 100 years ago. And that the number will be smaller in the future.

Would I want to throw a party where only atheists were invited? No way! Pity those who throw parties to which only TBMs are invited! Any yet TBMs probably look forward to them... The really hardcore TBMs probably play that game at the end of the party where the men all throw their keyrings into a hat and the women, one by one, reach into the hat and pull out a keyring and then go home with that priesthood holder.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: July 18, 2019 07:32PM

"...And I don't like anybody very much."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCTdfo6T-u8

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Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: July 18, 2019 08:18PM

This was the best thing I have heard all month. HH =)

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: July 18, 2019 09:03PM

Tom Lehrer, still alive, was an MIT professor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlJ8ZCs4jY

Edit: You'll probably get a kick out of "Vatican Rag:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvhYqeGp_Do



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/18/2019 09:08PM by caffiend.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: July 19, 2019 04:19AM

My father bought all his records in the early 60s. I used to know them all by heart :-D

A wonderful man - and a mathematician, like my missus ;-)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: July 19, 2019 04:27AM

Mathematicians are the bomb--except for when they are making the bomb!

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: July 19, 2019 09:12PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathematicians are the bomb--except for when they
> are making the bomb!
Scientists can tell us how to make a nuke, they just can't tell us who we should allow to use it.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: July 22, 2019 07:40PM

Damn. *I* bought his records in the sixties. Way to make me feel old!

I still have a Tom Lehrer songbook around here somewhere. Ah, yes: Too Many Songs by Tom Lehrer with not enough drawings by Ronald Searle.

Even as a child, I was clearly headed in the wrong direction. I'm surprised I survived BYU. I nearly didn't.

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Posted by: Captain Klutz NLI ( )
Date: July 19, 2019 08:30PM

I've been trying to come up with a new original sin since I first heard The Vatican Rag in middle school. I'm sort of wondering if my teacher got in trouble for that...it disappeared pretty quickly!

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: July 19, 2019 11:59PM

Which means 75% don't believe it's okay.

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