The other thread is now closed.

What you were referring to (that Jews often tend to be not all that religious) is an "always true" in Jewish life--and has been since ancient times.

To Jews, it isn't so much about the religion as it is the Jewish people, and the Jewish way of life (maybe "Jewish values" would be a good way of saying it), and Jewish history.

I read something the other day which cited a fact: The most atheistic group of people who identify with any (contemporary American) religion are, by a significant measure, the Jews.

If you think of Jews as (in effect) a "religion," you will never understand real Jews.

Jews are an ancient family, composed of people of most all of the races on this planet (plus a great many disparate ethnicities), which you are either born into, or you choose as your own.[*]

If you think of Jews as a family, and Judaism (the Jewish religion) as the foundational basis of Jewish values and culture (which does not necessarily include what most people think of as "religion"), then it will be a lot easier to understand.

[*] More and more lately, the phenomenon behind the "Who Is A Jew?" question, is being phrased as: Someone who "has a Jewish heart." ALL Jews understand this phrasing--ALL Jews know, from personal experience and from observation, what a "Jewish heart" IS.

It is widely accepted now, from Secular Humanist [means: atheist mostly] Jews, to Reform Jews, to ultra-Orthodox Jews, that a significant number of non-Jews who seek to become Jews were (in the last century) Holocaust victims who find themselves internally bewildered as to why they are suddenly "no longer a Jew" and are, seemingly, cut-off from the Jewish people.

I have recently read a couple of self-quizzes aimed at "non-Jews" who feel that they really ARE Jews, and the thrust of the questions is to determine: Does this person have a Jewish heart?

If you mix-up "Jewishness" with "Jewish religious belief," you will be off course a generous majority of the time.

If you think of Jews as an inclusive, multi-racial/multi-ethnic family group, it will be much easier to understand what is actual Jewish reality.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2019 10:12PM by Tevai.

Disclaimer: What follows is my personal view and I do not intend offense by it.

"If you think of Jews as (in effect) a "religion," you will never understand real Jews."

I see Jewishness as a set of overlapping definitions. (Also I admit some bias as I probably think too much of it in Ashkenazi terms). However, if I wished to, I could become Jewish. I would not have the upbringing etc, but I suspect I could become Jewish in a way I couldn't become Japanese (although I could gain Japanese citizenship, if I married someone from there.)

My impression is that once Jews lose the religious aspect that many of them marry out, and that most Europeans and Middle Easterners must have Jewish ancestry somewhere down the line as a result of this, but that few of such people identify with Jewishness.

I understand what you are saying but it does lead to some uncomfortable questions about who is a Jew and what Jewishness is. Are Lemba or Karaites real Jews, or Samaritans for example? I have heard some people who identified as Jewish with very tenuous connections, and others who rejected Jewishness despite a really strong background.

My best friend at high school was quarter Jewish - kind of - since his Jewish ancestry was through his father's father (paternal). His grandfather doesn't seem to have been observant at all (I met him a few times). I get the impression if Hitler hadn't come along, the grandfather would have remained in Germany and lived a life nearly identical to Gentile Germans, as I think he had before the trouble started. The grandfather was lucky enough to leave Germany before the National Socialists really consolidated power. None of my friend's family (other than the grandfather) seems to identify as Jewish - not him, nor his sisters of his dad and it is through the male line. They don't make a big deal of it, nor do they hide it. However, all of them would technically be eligible for aliyah. My friend now has children of his own, and the grandfather has passed away. So you have to ask how Jewish the great-grandchildren are, if at all.

I was surprised at how some young Israelis didn't seem very Jewish. The reason I was surprised is that their state emphasizes that heritage and they are Hebrew speakers and have recent Jewish ancestry. The situation I mention in the last paragraph is conceivable within Israel. I have encountered a few Israelis with Gentile spouses, and if this process repeats and no one observes the religion, this leads again to questions. If Israel endures for several more generations at least, this will become an issue.

I believe the Jews are unique, but I also think they are not unique in some respects they may think they are. Romany have remained a distinct group in Europe, with distinctive dietary rules, lifestyle, a history of persecution, their own languages and the question of assimilation. Hindus and even LDS from heavily Mormon areas have that religious-cultural-ancestral factor that seems to go beyond belief. Some aspects of far eastern culture, particularly Japan's, have issues that aren't as alien to Judaism as they might appeae at first sight IMHO.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Disclaimer: What follows is my personal view and I
> do not intend offense by it.

No offense taken. This is a very thoughtful reply and I thank you for it.


> I see Jewishness as a set of overlapping
> definitions.

This is true. There is a halachic (Jewish law) definition of "Who Is A Jew?":

A Jew is someone born of a Jewish MOTHER [Jewish fathers do not count--except in the Reform movement, which DOES accept patrilineal descent]....OR a convert to Judaism (according to the Jewish "denomination"/we call it "movement" which is doing the converting).

Converting to Judaism under Jewish law requires:

1) Either circumcision, or "symbolic circumcision" for males. (If a male who is converting has previously been circumcised, then the "symbolic circumcision" is done: the appropriate blessings are said, a single drop of blood is drawn from the head of the penis using a sterile surgical needle, and the after-circumcision blessings are then said. Both circumcision and symbolic circumcisions are done by a qualified Jewish mohel, usually an M.D. who is cross-qualified as a Jewish mohel.)

2) Ritual immersion in a mikvah (Jewish ritual "pool") which is witnessed by qualified Jewish witnesses.

3) Appearance before a Beit Din (Jewish court of law), which consists of three qualified rabbis.


> (Also I admit some bias as I probably
> think too much of it in Ashkenazi terms).

I don't know what you mean here. Sephardim (etc.) have a somewhat different ritual tradition, but it's all very traditionally Jewish.


> However, if I wished to, I could become Jewish. I would not
> have the upbringing etc, but I suspect I could
> become Jewish in a way I couldn't become Japanese
> (although I could gain Japanese citizenship, if I
> married someone from there.)

Yes, this is it exactly (I think): you are saying something to the effect that you have a "Jewish heart"....I think.


> My impression is that once Jews lose the religious
> aspect that many of them marry out

Lots of Jews "marry out"--but this phenomenon is more complex than it appears. Very often, the "marrying out" is actually marrying someone who does want to be a Jew (even though they are not a Jew) and they don't know any other way to do it. (This was me, attempting to become a Jew, for all of my adolescence, plus about a decade of my adulthood.) For those who marry and have children, those children are often the way BOTH people "return" to Jewish life, as they decide to celebrate Jewish holidays, send the kids to Hebrew school, which means they need to join a congregation....pretty soon, there is a "typical Jewish family" where before, there was a Jew, and someone who wanted to somehow become a Jew.

> and that most Europeans and Middle Easterners must have
> Jewish ancestry somewhere down the line as a result of
> this, but that few of such people identify with
> Jewishness.

This can happen, but what also happens a lot in these situations is that the kids or the grandchildren "return" to Judaism down the line--and if they don't, the greatgrandchildren, or GGgrandchildren, often do. Rabbis see this kind of thing a lot over the course of a rabbinical career.


> I understand what you are saying but it does lead
> to some uncomfortable questions about who is a Jew
> and what Jewishness is.

> Are Lemba or Karaites real Jews

Lemba: Yes. Karaites: Yes, in my opinion (but certain sectors of Judaism would disagree with me).

Samaritans: I think they are on way back "in" (they are having enormous physical inheritance problems from inbreeding, and their attempts to slow this down--by marrying non-Samaritan women from the former USSR--doesn't seem to be working that well (as of the last I read).

Samaritans who want to join/re-join the Jewish people are required to go through the Jewish conversion process (which is fairly pro forma for them), and my impression is that this option is increasingly being used (and definitely includes some Samaritans who are celebrities in Israel).


> I have heard some people who identified as Jewish with very
> tenuous connections, and others who rejected Jewishness
> despite a really strong background.

Yes on both cases. The tide now seems to be on the "coming in" side. Could be a delayed effect of the Holocaust, but this is speculation on my part. At this point (many decades after all this began) there seems to be more coming in than are leaving.


> My best friend at high school was quarter Jewish -
> kind of - since his Jewish ancestry was through
> his father's father (paternal). His grandfather
> doesn't seem to have been observant at all (I met
> him a few times). I get the impression if Hitler
> hadn't come along, the grandfather would have
> remained in Germany and lived a life nearly
> identical to Gentile Germans, as I think he had
> before the trouble started. The grandfather was
> lucky enough to leave Germany before the National
> Socialists really consolidated power. None of my
> friend's family (other than the grandfather) seems
> to identify as Jewish - not him, nor his sisters
> of his dad and it is through the male line. They
> don't make a big deal of it, nor do they hide it.
> However, all of them would technically be eligible
> for aliyah. My friend now has children of his own,
> and the grandfather has passed away. So you have
> to ask how Jewish the great-grandchildren are, if
> at all.

Their Jewish legal status would depend on their maternal line, but rabbis frequently discuss these kinds of issues with families like this, and if the families want to "come back" they are welcome. If they don't want to, that is fine too.


> I was surprised at how some young Israelis didn't
> seem very Jewish. The reason I was surprised is
> that their state emphasizes that heritage and they
> are Hebrew speakers and have recent Jewish
> ancestry. The situation I mention in the last
> paragraph is conceivable within Israel. I have
> encountered a few Israelis with Gentile spouses,
> and if this process repeats and no one observes
> the religion, this leads again to questions. If
> Israel endures for several more generations at
> least, this will become an issue.

I know this has been happening, but I'm also aware that this particular "tide" seems to have turned, and there now seems to be more energy going into the "coming in" direction. If one of those kids decides to go to Israel to do "their" IDF stint, or takes one of the free Birthright/"Taglit," I believe, trips to Israel (I am assuming they are not living there), then they are probably (whether they know it or not) "on the way back."

Women (both born Jews, as well as converts to Judaism) are having a tremendous effect on re-energizing Judaism worldwide. They are studying in yeshivas, they are becoming rabbis, they are initiating all kinds of social service activities throughout their communities at large, they are writing books, and are appearing on the covers of general audience magazines because of their real world accomplishments.

As of the second decade in this millennium, it is no longer anyone's great-grandfather's Judaism any more!!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2019 12:14PM by Tevai.

I think you forgot the O/T on your subject line, Tevai.

Aloysius Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you forgot the O/T on your subject line,
> Tevai.

You are right--Thank you for catching this!

Mazel tov!
and Yom Kipper!
see I know a few Hebrew words. It's a funny sounding language and a dead culture revived by a bunch of peculiar people who have a lot of time on their hands. But to each his own.

Interestingly I'm Jewish as well on numerous sides of the family. (Germanic Jewish ancestors converted because of the holy inquisition). But it's all Greek to me as the saying goes.

Interestingly though I had a friend tell me that he thought I looked and acted Jewish. Now what exactly was that suppose to mean? Do Jews have a certain look? What is the Jewish look? What do Jews act like? Do they all speak Italian English or something?

My features are very dark eyes and brown hair and slim. But I would classify that as more Celtic (Gaelic) than Scythian (or Aryan).

You might try having your DNA run to see what it shows if you have Ashkenazi or not. It would be interesting to find out. I did 23 and Me for Mother's Day in 2017. Then it revised its findings this past spring and tells me I'm suddenly nearly 40% Swiss, with a strong likelihood of German mixed in. Which wouldn't be surprising given that the Swiss in my ancestry came from Bern, which is German speaking. And add my German Jewish ancestors as well as some other ancestors from the Germanic countries. :)

I learned I'm 12.7% Ashkenazi Jewish, which I don't think is really all that much. My therapist thought he was 100% Sicilian before he did his DNA. Then he learned he has app 19% Ashkenazi. That was probably as big a surprise to him as my learning I'm 40% Swiss! :D

If you have German Jewish ancestors then you more likely than not have some Ashkenazi in your DNA makeup. Having a dark complexion may or may not come from them though, because some Jewish people are blonde and fair complected. Especially from Europe. Not all have darker complexions. Which during WWII hurt some of the Nordic looking Jews because they thought they could hide in plain view of the Nazis because they didn't "look" Jewish. They were rounded up like the rest of them.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2019 11:03PM by Amyjo.

Bern is also where alot of my family is from, We are probably cousins. I come from the Neff and Brennaman clans lots of people who settled Pennsylvania which were the Mennonites and Quakers.

But ya I probably should get the DNA tested and see if I'm Ashkanazi, that would be interesting!

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interestingly though I had a friend tell me that
> he thought I looked and acted Jewish. Now what
> exactly was that suppose to mean? Do Jews have a
> certain look? What is the Jewish look? What do
> Jews act like? Do they all speak Italian English
> or something?
>
> My features are very dark eyes and brown hair and
> slim. But I would classify that as more Celtic
> (Gaelic) than Scythian (or Aryan).

I know what your friend means, but I don't know how to explain it.

I've told this story before, but this is a time to repeat it:

I have acquired family in northern New Mexico, and the entire family (all direct, and intermarried many times, descendants of the Spanish conquistadores of 1598), is extremely devoutly Catholic (almost unbelievably Catholic, by non-Latino, non-northern-New-Mexico standards).

One lazy Saturday morning, I was sitting in a particular living room as the members of the extended family (adults and kids both) were swirling around me, each of them deeply concentrating on their own pursuits at that moment, and no one was paying any attention at all to me.

And suddenly, amid all of the activity and "out of nowhere," I realized: These are Jews.

I KNEW this. It was 100% clear to me, I KNEW I was right, but I cannot explain HOW I knew, I just DID know--and there wasn't a quark of doubt in my mind.

In the couple of weeks that followed, I asked some questions, but no one knew why I was suddenly asking these weird questions, and when I asked if there was any Jewish ancestry in the family, there was genuine shock at the very idea.

I went out and bought a copy of Fray Angelico Chavez's book, ORIGINS OF NEW MEXICO FAMILIES IN THE SPANISH COLONIAL PERIOD, I skimmed through it, and I realized that I already possessed the "key" to what I was searching for: Gramalina (the nickname of the family grandmother)--her maiden name.

It wasn't the usual kind of Latino surname, it was more Spanish-from-Spain-like, and I had a feeling that if I traced this name from generation to generation, backwards, I would find out the truth.

So I did exactly that, and along the way, I discovered something really extraordinary: although the people in northern New Mexico all (supposedly) came from the "same" conquistador ancestors, this wasn't actually all the way true. When you traced out the different family lines, there were two distinct "groups" of people, and they kept themselves distinct, and they did NOT intermarry with each other.

That was "the" key.

They did NOT intermarry with each other.

At all.

I traced Gramalina's ancestors back, did a bit more searching with other books, and realized that not only were "my" family "hidden Jews," I was able to delineate the other "hidden Jewish" families in that same area as well. (I was working with my books, some scratch paper, and a pen, and I am figuring out what Fray Angelico himself, quite obviously, ALSO knew--and was PUBLISHING, waiting for someone to come along and penetrate the "secret," and learn the literally unsayable: That "hidden Jews" lived right alongside those "other" Spanish colonists who were NOT Jewish, and (for many generations) they never, ever, intermarried between the groups.

This took place about forty years ago. Right now, because of the breast cancer which has been descending down the subsequent generations of all those ancestral "hidden Jews" from Spain, everyone knows, and no more secrets exist. (More than one person from "my" family has now died from breast cancer; the other female members know that each of them might possibly be next.)

But I knew, before any of them knew, that they were the descendants of the "hidden Jews" of Spain--and I have not the slightest idea of why, as I was sitting in that particular living room on that particular day, I was able to look around me and suddenly KNOW: "These are Jews."

They themselves, absolutely and certainly, had not the remotest idea of who their Spaniard forebears actually were.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2019 02:07AM by Tevai.

To be fair, I think most people in Spain and Portugal have Jewish ancestry somewhere down the line (Muslim too). I suspect the vast majority of those of Jewish descent are no longer Jewish in outlook. Palestinian Christians and Muslims are descended partly from the Jews who didn't become part of the Diaspora... and we know about their recent history.

In many parts of Europe, up until a few generations ago, most people married locally. So if an area had a high percentage of Jews, crypto-Jews and people of partial Jewish ancestry, it is highly likely their genetic, and even cultural, element would keep being thrown back into the pot. Gentile culture in cities like New York, London, Berlin or Warsaw has long had Jewish influences many people wouldn't be aware of, especially in local slang.

That is amazing Tevai. Your intuition is very keen to have been able to be that discerning. Some people ascribe it to a 'sixth sense.' Whatever, it is what it is.

What a discovery!

That's a keen observation Tevai. Interestingly years ago I read that before the inquisition of Spain that started around the time of Queen Isabella and lasted 300 years, there was at least 10% of the population of Spain that were Jews and Muslims. And that's just the ones that identified as such, who knows how many mixed peoples there were.

Spain has a complicated history and lots of mysteries.

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's a keen observation Tevai. Interestingly
> years ago I read that before the inquisition of
> Spain that started around the time of Queen
> Isabella and lasted 300 years, there was at least
> 10% of the population of Spain that were Jews and
> Muslims. And that's just the ones that identified
> as such, who knows how many mixed peoples there
> were.
>
> Spain has a complicated history and lots of
> mysteries.

I've always found it quirky how many Spanish speakers are called "Jesus" - in that form (as opposed to Joshua) it is an uncommon name in most other traditionally Christian areas.

I'm told one reason for how common it is among them was that many Spanish Jews and Muslims took that name when they converted to Christianity, and that it replaced names such as Moses and Mohammed (it is curious how some Jewish names such as David and Sarah are so common among Christians but how others such as Moses or Mordecai are pretty rare.)

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interestingly though I had a friend tell me that
> he thought I looked and acted Jewish. Now what
> exactly was that suppose to mean? Do Jews have a
> certain look? What is the Jewish look? What do
> Jews act like? Do they all speak Italian English
> or something?
>
> My features are very dark eyes and brown hair and
> slim. But I would classify that as more Celtic
> (Gaelic) than Scythian (or Aryan).

I've had someone tell me (more than once) that I look Jewish, even one or two from Israel. There is no evidence of Jewish ancestry in my family records (although in one census, I found my ancestors did live in an apartment next to a Jewish family - so maybe Mr "Cohen" next door was having a secret affair with my gx whatever grandmother!!!)

I mentioned above my school friend with the Jewish German grandfather. Well, he is blond haired and blue eyed, and he gets that off his grandfather. More famous examples of this phenomenon are Gene Wilder or the guy who played the angel on Highway to Heaven.

While I have met Jewish people who "look Jewish" according to the stereotype, many do not and I have met Gentiles who look supposedly Jewish. (Especially Southern European types, Armenians, Arabs, Iranians etc). I know one woman I had always presumed to be of Italian background until I found out her great-grandfather was a Lithuanian rabbi.

Same applies to the Gaelic look you mention above. There are so called "Black Irish" who are indigenous and have very dark hair and eyes, and also Scots and Irish who are red headed or blonde.

My children's paternal grandmother who was a Jew was orphaned at age five when her parents were murdered in the Warsaw ghetto. She may have been one of the 2,500 children Irena Sendler saved from the ghetto because she was adopted by a Catholic family in Warsaw so the Nazis passed her over when they went door to door checking to see who was Jewish and who wasn't. One thing that helped to spare her the death sentence was she was a blonde and blue eyed little Jewish girl.

They wouldn't have guessed she could possibly have been Jewish. and yet she was. There are plenty more like her where she came from.

It isn't a color code to being Jewish. That some people may look more ethnic, perhaps. But being Jewish can be any color, race, ethnicity under the sun.

My third grade teacher where I grew up in the Morridor chose me to play Mary in the Christmas play that year only because she thought I looked the most Jewish out of all the children. I was the darkest complected child in the class. I was thrilled to be able to play Mary because I got to wear two really pretty gowns, and hold the baby Jesus on stage with Joseph, and sit with a paper mache' donkey (inside occupied by two little boys.) While the other kids got the minor roles lol.

My school was mostly filled with children who were blondies and blue eyed kids. I was a dark brunette, brown eyes with freckles. And that was why I got to play Mary that year.I didn't even know then I was Jewish through my mum's side. That was what life resembled for little kids mid-1960's southeast Idaho. We lived inside a bubble!

Out of all my siblings I was the darkest complected child too. My brothers were redheads and blondes. Why only me I wondered? My parents were dark brunettes like me, yet I was their only dark haired child out of the bunch. It may have been a recessive gene after all.

Yes, I've heard it called that. And also, "To be Jewish is to belong to a tribe."

There is a strong sense of connection more than family. It is interconnectedness. It goes beyond anything I felt as a Mormon. It is intergenerational and international. It is past, present, and future. It is eternal.

Hannah Senesh wrote 'Walk to Caesarea,' while she worked on a kibbutz there before she was executed as a resistance fighter during WWII.

'My God, my God,
may it never end –
the sand and the sea,
the rustle of the water,
the brilliance of the sky,
the prayer of man.'

She gave her life for her country.

Also remembered for "Blessed is the Match"

"Blessed is the match consumed in the kindling flame.
Blessed is the flame that burns in the heart's secret places.
Blessed is the heart with strength to stop its beating for honor's sake.
Blessed is the match consumed in the kindling flame."

That's the Jewish heart she speaks of. That is eternal.



It became one of the national anthems of Israel.

Since converting to Judaism requires circumcision, it’s not my heart I’d be worried about.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since converting to Judaism requires circumcision,
> it’s not my heart I’d be worried about.

When I was in the process of converting (through an Introduction to Judaism course at our local Jewish university), one night our history teacher handed out a printed sheet to every male in our class who was converting.

On that sheet was a list of maybe thirty different M.D.'s in the San Fernando Valley/greater Los Angeles area. The men were told to pick out whichever one of those doctors they wanted....phone the doctor's office....and make an appointment for the circumcision/symbolic circumcision. Because all of the post-op wounds had to be absolutely, totally, healed before we had our mikvah (ritual immersion), the men had a list of very specific days within which they HAD to get their procedures done.

The next class after the procedures, every woman in class wanted to know EXACTLY what happened....as well as: "Did it hurt?"

It was all interesting (the doctor came into the room and introduced himself, he put on his Jewish ritual clothes over his surgical scrubs, he opened his prayerbook and said the blessings, he did the deed, and then he said the after-op blessings. He then bandaged the wound (not needed with the symbolic circumcisions), gave instructions on how to care for the wounds until they healed, signed the certificate which was needed for conversion, shook hands with the patient, and walked out of the room.

The men all agreed that the symbolic circumcisions hurt more than the complete circumcisions (I still don't know why), and the men all agreed that the process went a lot "better" than they were afraid might be the case.

Never, ever, did any of those men have any more attentive audience than we (the women in the class), as we listened carefully to every detail of what had happened to our male classmates.

Who else would ever get the opportunity to hear the details of something so arcane as adult male circumcisions/symbolic circumcisions?

I've heard it is much more painful and more complicated for adults to undergo than it is newborn infants.

Hey babylon, just don't go wearing your heart on your sleeve, so it don't get mistaken for something else.

What if you don't want to be in the Family but you are in the family?

Are you still family?

jay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What if you don't want to be in the Family but you
> are in the family?
>
> Are you still family?

Yes, but we won't embarrass you by calling you out.

If you ever want to come back, the porch light will be on, and the door will be unlocked.

And in the meantime: Mazel Tov!

Stay safe.

I don't know why but this thread made me think of this song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba7IDOMHo9g



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2019 03:06PM by Elder Berry.

I was reminded more of this one! If you're pressed for time, go to the 1:30 mark...

https://youtu.be/2WF6irnzAiI



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2019 03:32PM by elderolddog.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was reminded more of this one! If you're
> pressed for time, go to the 1:30 mark...
>
> https://youtu.be/2WF6irnzAiI

Also perfect, EOD.

I've never seen a violin like that before, and I was a violinist when I was little (before I was old enough to go to school).

Thank you!

:D

It's a wireless electric violin. Just like a solid body electric guitar, with an electric pickup, you don't need a large hollow body for resonance.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a wireless electric violin. Just like a solid
> body electric guitar, with an electric pickup, you
> don't need a large hollow body for resonance.

Thank you for the explanation, BoJ.

I appreciate it!

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know why but this thread made me think of
> this song.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba7IDOMHo9g

Beautiful, Elder Berry.

Thank you!

:)

well, if one is in the family but not the Family, why does the door need to be left unlocked and the light on?

Am I not already sitting at the kitchen table?

jay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well, if one is in the family but not the Family,
> why does the door need to be left unlocked and the
> light on?
>
> Am I not already sitting at the kitchen table?

I have no idea.

it sounds like i'm welcome into the Jewish Family if I'm jewish, but i may not be welcome into the Jewish family if i'm not jewish . . .

jay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it sounds like i'm welcome into the Jewish Family
> if I'm jewish, but i may not be welcome into the
> Jewish family if i'm not jewish . . .

You'd be more welcome into the Jewish family if you were never Jewish and converted. Or were Jewish and returned. But if you are Jewish and converted to Messianic Judaism or Christianity you are more likely to be perceived as a traitor of the faith and ostracised.

If you were never Jewish and come as a guest you'd be welcome to visit. But then not a part of the tribe.

Secular Jews don't feel disconnected from being Jewish because they're secular typically. Unless they've done something that caused them to be shunned by their family or religious community. Some communities will do that depending on how conservative and how ultra orthodox they are.

On average, Salt Lake City has app 25-30 converts from Mormonism a year into its Kol Ami Congregation (mixed Reform and Conservative Synagogue.) This number has remained steady now for app 50 or more years.

A fair number of its members come from the Mormon population around SLC who convert to Judaism. They go through the classes to join. I know from a woman friend I worship with here in upstate New York who spent 15 winters there with her husband, and a newspaper article from a rabbi who was interviewed from the late 1970's. When my grandmother and I visited in 1973 the rabbi then told us that his synagogue in SLC had a goodly number of Mormons that were converts to Judaism.

Jews aren't running to join Mormonism, I'll grant you that! :)

You'd be more welcome into the Mormon family if you were never Mormon and converted. Or were Mormon and returned. But if you are Mormon and converted to Messianic Judaism or Christianity you are more likely to be perceived as a traitor of the faith and ostracized.

Sounds about right.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You'd be more welcome into the Mormon family if
> you were never Mormon and converted. Or were
> Mormon and returned. But if you are Mormon and
> converted to Messianic Judaism or Christianity you
> are more likely to be perceived as a traitor of
> the faith and ostracized.
>
> Sounds about right.

In Mormonism about everyone outside of it is perceived as a security threat if they aren't seen as convert material.

Mormons who go inactive or apostasize doesn't matter what for are as good as dead to other Mormons often including their own family because they are shunned & then excommunicated if they don't resign first. You can't be just a secular Mormon and accepted by the observant ones in the faith community as part of their tribe. That isn't how they operate. Because they are a cult first. Not a community of like minded tolerant fellowshippers who really give a damn about each other. They have too much of a Stepford Wife mentality to have genuine empathy, respect, or tolerance for others. I never thought of being a Mormon as a tribe. It is an identity, but not a tribe because when they cut people off they're as good as dead to them. That is total dysfunction. And devastating to those affected by it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2019 08:13PM by Amyjo.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I never thought of being a
> Mormon as a tribe. It is an identity, but not a
> tribe because when they cut people off they're as
> good as dead to them. That is total dysfunction.
> And devastating to those affected by it.

SusieQ#1 did think of them as a tribe. In my time of intense anger towards Mormonism I disagreed with her vehemently.

Now I miss her. I'm married to a Mormon like she was.

I'm not defending Mormonism just pointing out your hypocrisy.

"But if you are Jewish and converted to Messianic Judaism or Christianity you are more likely to be perceived as a traitor of the faith and ostracised."

Does seem about "identity" and not tolerance to me.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amyjo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I never thought of being a
> > Mormon as a tribe. It is an identity, but not a
> > tribe because when they cut people off they're
> as
> > good as dead to them. That is total
> dysfunction.
> > And devastating to those affected by it.
>
> SusieQ#1 did think of them as a tribe. In my time
> of intense anger towards Mormonism I disagreed
> with her vehemently.
>
> Now I miss her. I'm married to a Mormon like she
> was.
>
> I'm not defending Mormonism just pointing out your
> hypocrisy.
>
> "But if you are Jewish and converted to Messianic
> Judaism or Christianity you are more likely to be
> perceived as a traitor of the faith and
> ostracised."
>
> Does seem about "identity" and not tolerance to
> me.

My views on tribalism are from having been a Mormon where I did not see it as a generational connection spanning centuries because it isn't anywhere near as old or ingrained as Judaism is. Nor has the Mormon religion survived several thousands of years on the earth despite pogroms and heavy religious persecution. It was the inter-connectedness of the Jewish people that has helped them survive down through the centuries. I'm not sure the Mormons will be able to say the same - maybe they will. But they don't have the same history as the Jewish people or the Jewish identity.

That Mormons identify as a "tribe" is a foreign concept to me, because they are dysfunctional as a whole.

If you see them as a tribe, when the majority of them are converts to the church, then they are 'adopted' into it until they leave by default, or apostasy, or resignation, or excommunication. And then comes the shunning.

I just don't equate the two as anywhere near the same.

Messianic Jews are seen as traitors to the Jewish faith because it was Christians who were responsible for some of the worst pogroms and genocides the Jews have suffered, in the name of religiosity.

They reject proselytization in part for that reason, and wish to have nothing to do with Christianity, including Messianics. When Messianics turn up as Jews having converted now trying to convert other Jews is seen as another form of trying to destroy Judaism from within. That is why they feel betrayed by those who join those groups. I see Messianics as a cult not unlike that of Mormonism because it acts a lot like Mormonism by trying to control its members in much the same way as Mormonism does. You don't get that kind of control in Judaism.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 01:52PM by Amyjo.

"That Mormons identify as a "tribe" is a foreign concept to me, because they are dysfunctional as a whole."

Maybe it is just a difference of definitions.

I don't think tribe means something that can't be in dysfunctionality.

"If you see them as a tribe, when the majority of them are converts to the church, then they are 'adopted' into it until they leave by default, or apostasy, or resignation, or excommunication. And then comes the shunning."

I'm thinking your definition is like a tribe of Israel or some such notion?

Mormonism is a cultic corporation to me. It functions at its lowest levels as tribes of geographically connected believers.

Where they are "bad" is the cultic corporation and not the tribe aspect.

Your statements about shunning by Jewish peoples fits a variety of people outside belief structures. It is a poor comparison to a cultic corporation and more just bad tribal behavior. It applies to both Jewish, Amish, Mormon, whatever.

AJ: "If you see them as a tribe, when the majority of them are converts to the [Mormon] church, then they are 'adopted' into it until they leave by default, or apostasy, or resignation, or excommunication.

Question: What is leaving "by default"?

Point of Order: I've always objected to Mormons calling former members "apostates". It is, by definition, pejorative.

The objective dictionary definition may seem neutral:

Apostate: "A person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle."

True enough.

But Mormons (and other religions - such as JW) imbue the term with judgement and contempt, the term and its consequences evoking fear in other members. With JWs (as I used to be) there is nothing worse than being branded 'apostate', a traitor to the true faith.

Even the apparent 'neutral' definition I gave above lists 'heretic' as a synonym for 'apostate', another word full of judgement. One synonym for 'heretic' is given as 'renegade', which, in turn, is defined as a person who betrays an organization, country or principle. 'Turncoat' is also a synonym for 'renegade' and is listed (obviously) as a pejorative term.

IOW, judgement.

Which most of us have had a bellyful of from churches we used to belong to, merely for exercising our freedom to choose to leave.

At least as a JW, branding someone as apostate has the organization's desired effect: shunning. They don't want to risk the leave-taker talking to other members, even family, in case the choice to quit is catching. The general membership is barred from even greeting the exiled former member while family members are restricted to only necessary interaction and are not allowed to discuss religion with the so-called apostate.

Correspondingly, the judgemental term 'apostate' instantly conjures up exceptionally negative memories and thoughts for me. Using it, to me, means falling in with the distorted approach of the religious judges who seek to exert control over even former members by first branding them as evil and second by mandating that current members shun the so-called apostate.

Talk about feeling branded. Unjustly so. And it ruins relationships and even lives. All to prop up the power and control of the "judges in Israel" (as JW leaders call themselves) as well as all church leaders who preach against former members just because they choose a different path.

(Sidetrack: JWs identify very strongly with Judaism. Long story but may be of interest if anyone cares to look it up. They used an elderly Jewish man to voice many of the films they showed at conferences, at least when I was a JW. I can't remember now why they felt the strong connection - something to do with their theology. The fact that I can't remember is Good News for me. "Good News" is an alternate descriptor they use for "The Truth" which is how they refer to their faith. For me, forgetting the details means I'm far, far away from the stranglehold that organization exerts over its membership. I still feel the feelings though, when something comes up to remind me. Such as that one loaded word: Apostate).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 02:17PM by Nightingale.

Indeed.

And as noted above, it’s growing by leaps and bounds and when people leave they end up coming back - or their children do.

Rabbi Lapin says, along with his wife, that if any of their children were to leave their Jewish faith they will be disowned, disavowed, disinherited.

I thought that was cruel of them, like the Amish do to their own if a child leaves their religion.

It isn't an Orthodox Jewish religion they adhere to. They are Messianic Jews (if I'm not mistaken as they on the Christian Broadcast Network.) To tell their children that they'll be cut off if they leave or don't marry someone that shares their same religion seems to me very barbaric and cold-hearted.

Yet how many families are really like that? Who place more emphasis on religion than family?

Amyjo:

According to what I just looked up, this man (while he is a rabbi) is functioning as a political operative now.

http://jonrowe.blogspot.com/2005/01/strange-article-by-rabbi-daniel-lapin.html

He has also developed what amounts to a "Jewish prosperity 'gospel' ":
http://jonrowe.blogspot.com/2005/01/strange-article-by-rabbi-daniel-lapin.html

He teaches homophobia:
https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/04/24/rabbi-daniel-lapin-the-bible-says-being-a-gay-man-is-worse-than-being-a-lesbian-2/

He is definitely not representative of Judaism, or Jews, as a whole, and his political work, plus his anti-gay work, are so encompassing that he is problematic here on RfM.

I've never before heard of this man, but from what I've just read, I am really troubled by his current endeavors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2019 10:44PM by Tevai.

If he is representative of Messianic perspective that may help to explain why.

I attended a Messianic congregation before finding a regular Jewish one where I live. I became convinced that Messianics are another cult like Mormonism is.

Very controlling from the center out. They keep a tight leash on their members. Lapin keeps a tight leash on his family from what I could tell (and his television audience.) He doesn't represent Jewish values I've come to learn.

I asked a simple question once in a shabbat class one Saturday. Like a normal person would do in a shul setting. It was met with a stare like how dare I challenge the instructor by questioning the lesson material. It felt almost like being in a Mormon church all over again (deja vu!) I thought to hell with this.

At synagogue people are encouraged to ask questions and share their ideas and thoughts on various topics. The difference is like night and day. @ Messianic it was more like Group Think. Similar to LDS. Whatever the rabbi and his side kick (assistant rabbi who doubled as the cantor) would say people would say "how high?" That rabbi was very conservative politically too. Did NOT believe in global warming. He believed it was ALL a HOAX, etc. He was a typical conspiracy theorist to go with his right wing views. That bothered me too. So I got out of there once I realized what I'd gotten myself into.

He wasn't really serving the congregation. They were there to take our money so he and his wife, and his assistant rabbi could live off the funds. They have a nice gig going. He was making over $40,000 a year just in his salary, not counting his housing and travel allowances, plus the building fund. He makes several trips a year to Israel, and around the country. Not a bad gig for a guy who used to be a baker. Most of his congregants are NOT Jewish. It is more like an evangelical Christian church that calls itself Messianic Jewish by substituting Jewish rites and rituals for Christian ones. He's a lot like Rabbi Lapin but I don't believe he would disown or disinherit his children because none of them are religious like their parents are, and they have not denounced their kids. They do pray for them incessantly.

Thanks, Tevai, for sharing some of the links above.

While he doesn't seem to be a racist (I searched some of his Twitter topics, Q&A,) he is promoting his book on how to live prosperously through spiritual principles.

He says there are "No poor people in America, albeit there are plenty of people living in poverty." Then devotes an entire podcast to explaining himself on why he chose that for a title.

https://myemail.constantcontact.com/How-many-poor-people-do-you-know---Podcast.html?soid=1113800665814&aid=OqvJZxjmiB4

Which I haven't listened to nor have the inclination to at the moment. Maybe later. Some of his views are a real doozy. While he calls himself a rabbi and heads a not-for-profit called the American Alliance of Jews and Christians; he is not your typical Messianic Jewish Rabbi (fooled me!) He's an Orthodox rabbi to this day, which I find most intriguing given the television stations he's hired to broadcast from.

He is very conservative in his views religiously and conservatively. From wikipedia his bio reads the following:

"Lapin promotes conservative political principles, intermixed with traditional religious observance. Lapin was one of the Jewish voices in support of Mel Gibson's controversial film The Passion of the Christ, and was a strong supporter of the efforts by Terri Schiavo's parents to keep their daughter alive. He is also a strong supporter of Pope Pius XII as a righteous gentile, a term he believes should be renamed "righteous Christian". Lapin has called the United States the most "Jewish-friendly" state in history because of its Christian heritage. He argues that it is better for Jews to promote shared Judeo-Christian values with the majority than promote solely Jewish values. He has also called secular liberalism a danger to Judeo-Christian values, and claimed that the Holocaust Memorial Museum presents anti-Christian propaganda; he says that the museum ignores, for example, the work of Corrie ten Boom's family in unconditionally saving Jews during World War II. Lapin has declared that the Anti-Defamation League and its allies are "dangerous organizations that are driving a wedge between American Jews and Christians". Referring to ADL national director Abraham Foxman, Lapin claimed that by calling The Passion of the Christ anti-Semitic, "what he is saying is that the only way (for Christians) to escape the wrath of Foxman is to repudiate (their own) faith". Lapin also rejects the idea that the Jewish left represents Judaism. He has excoriated Jewish liberals for their promotion of ideas he views as contrary to traditional Judaism, such as abortion, same-sex marriage, and socialism. He argues that Jewish-born liberals have redefined "Judaism" to mean "liberalism" - and redefined "anti-liberalism" as "anti-Semitism". Lapin has said: "It is time for us to recognize the charge of anti-Semitism for what it often is: a political weapon intended to silence critics of liberalism."

Public celebration of Christmas
Lapin has spoken against the secularization of Christmas, saying that, "We see obsequious regard for faiths like Judaism and even Islam, while Christianity is treated with contempt". He is opposed to replacing the "Merry Christmas" greeting with "Happy Holidays", saying, "Let us all go out of our way to wish our many wonderful Christian friends a very merry Christmas ... Nationwide, Christmas Nativity scenes are banned from city halls and shopping malls, but Chanukah menorahs are permitted."[33] [Note: I don't find this true in my area as elsewhere. Where Nativity scenes are banned so too are Chanukan menorahs, etc.]

Wealth
Lapin asks: "Does God want people to be rich?" ... "Yes!", he says, because God "wants us to be obsessively preoccupied by one another's needs", a habit that the commerce relationship fosters. "Wealth is a consequence of doing the right thing", he says. He argues that the Torah supports the free market and opposes punitive taxation, and wants people to pass on assets to their descendants, rather than being taken by the government by inheritance taxes."