Under the context of having doubts within the Mormon community, I think a large majority of TBMS have doubts. Manipulation (gaslighting?) occurs when they voice those doubts openly (e.g. invited to speak with the Bishop or SP, made to feel wrong or evil for having those doubts, etc.
Often times they allude to "satan's" influence on you, you have been living unrighteously in some way, etc. - guilt as a form of manipulation.
Counseling: let's together help you to find what is best for you. We will optimize and develop the best of humanity that you already have within you so you may become a self-actualized human being.
Manipulation: let me warp/guilt/shame/threaten and cause sufficient anxiety in you so you will see to do it my way. I will exploit the best of humanity within you, against you, and keep you locked in ignorance, fear, and need.
The one wishes the songbird freedom. The other, to keep it locked in a cage.
Since the church has a volunteer clergy so to speak, bishops and stake presidents vary widely. Some are laid back and others are real micro-managers.
The bishop I worked under had a demanding job that required a lot of travel. It was a real challenge to just to the basics as bishop. I did his best. He did tell me once Mormon culture had a lot of flaws. He was a quick interviewer. He told me he didn't probe or interrogate people in interviews. If someone wanted to bring something up he was there to help them the best he could.
Most these church leaders are just some guy out of a ward who gets called. They have differing backgrounds and differing attitudes and differing motives. Some want to climb the church ladder and those are usually the leaders that are a pain in the ass. Others don't want higher callings at all and just want to be off that damn stand and back in the congregation sitting with their wife. I knew one stake president who was happy as hell he got released. He bought a motorhome and him and his wife went around seeing North America. I wonder if they even bothered going to church while on the road.
Rubicon Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Since the church has a volunteer clergy so to > speak, bishops and stake presidents vary widely. . . . > Most these church leaders are just some guy out of > a ward who gets called. They have differing > backgrounds and differing attitudes and differing > motives... ======================================== True, and Wise. Heart goes out to that stake president.
Cannot help but wonder: How do people - entire groups - engage in things that, in their heart of hearts, they really do not want to be doing at all?
Even things clearly not in their best human interest?
Yes absolutely. Not just to keep people in the church but just generally as a part of control: keep people under the thumb, feeling like crap, and remaining dependent. Then there’s no energy left for (god forbid) being assertive, questioning things, making your own decisions, looking after your own wellbeing and perhaps then finding out the truth.
My bishop, who at the time I thought was a lovely man, when I went to him with problems, would offer advice contrary to my wellbeing: extra things I had to do, more time in my calling... I must DO more to be happy, or I had to DO things in order to be forgiven for minor “sins”. I was then more exhausted, my self esteem even more depleted - then I had more problems, and so the cycle went on and on.
The worst part was that he presumed to know how I felt about certain things, then would treat me from this point of view and gave me advice (commandments) based on these assumptions, all of which were incorrect and misinformed. It’s what I like to call emotional gaslighting. It’s crazy making behaviour. He really knew nothing. (And how could someone who was so narrow minded?).
This is exactly why I deliberately never voiced my doubts once I had them. I knew from this experience and from what I’d read that I would be in for an onslaught of emotional and mental manipulation. I just fired my “doubts” at them in their true form as Facts when I sent my resignation letter. I wouldn’t have survived more manipulation, but if I had I would have completely lost it.
But yes, gaslighting is absolutely a huge part of the mormon leadership game where doubts are concerned: “We never said that” “You never saw/heard/really think that” - even when you show it to them in black and white. It’s a total mindf*** and not a game anyone should ideally take part in.
Your Bishop sounds a lot like mine! He even encouraged me to lie for my temple recommend interview with the Stake Prez. The recommend interview with the Bishop was very open ended, asking me questions in such a way that I could say yes without actually lying. His reasoning was that if they could keep me going to the temple I would keep my (yet in the dark) family in the church. So, yeah, I got my TR by lying to the SP.
The other thing was that he and the previous Bishop liked to conduct whispering campaigns where they would plant tiny seeds of character assassination by saying things like "I need to be careful when talking about interviews with so-n-so". Naturally, people would instantly become wary of that individual without ever knowing why and to fill in the blanks, they would gossip and discuss theories about why so-n-so might have a testimony problem.
The spirit of contention is the cause for any challenge you might make when you recognize the lies and the damage. Like the time the Bishop was spreading rumors about another person who left the church. Those who knew it was a lie were acting out of rebellion to the Lord and those who see this kind of thing learn very quickly to fall in line so as to avoid the all-seeing eye of the Lord's Annointed.
I could go on for pages about whispering campaigns, efforts to turn children against their parents and gaslighting to faithful questioner, but the short version is that RfM exists largely in part because abusive counselling is widespread and very real. It is literally the unwritten law of the LDS version of Gospel.
Wow that’s interesting (and awful). I didn’t know that was a thing but it doesn’t surprise me either. I would be so curious to find out what was said (however covertly or minute) about me when I left, and subsequently. My tbm brother and SIL are sometimes fine with me, then they’re not again and it makes NO sense whatsoever. Someone is pulling their emotional strings or putting ideas in their heads perhaps. I will probably never know. I guess it’s a shitshow I’d be better off not knowing about anyway. So thankful I got out. The more I think about it over time, the more I also feel bad for them, even though they treat me badly. They think they’re right but this kind of stuff makes it hit home how they’re in a bad situation regardless of how up-themselves and how self righteous they are.
Quote - "Yes absolutely. Not just to keep people in the church but just generally as a part of control: keep people under the thumb, feeling like crap, and remaining dependent. Then there’s no energy left for (god forbid) being assertive, questioning things, making your own decisions, looking after your own wellbeing and perhaps then finding out the truth."
The great thing is that it comes a day when "they" have tried everything to hold you down and one day the tactics are worthless.