Auschwitz guard/bookkeeper Oskar Groening tells the court where he is currently on trial that he shares "moral guilt" for atrocities at Auschwitz during WWII. He was the camp "bookkeeper" and says he did not personally participate in the murders and other horrors that occurred at the camp.

CBC Article:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/oskar-groening-former-auschwitz-guard-tells-trial-he-shares-moral-guilt-1.3041791

The Associated Press Posted: Apr 21, 2015 6:35 AM ET Last Updated: Apr 21, 2015 12:32 PM ET

Excerpts:

"Oskar Groening, former Auschwitz guard, tells trial he shares moral guilt
93-year-old man is on trial on 300,000 counts of accessory to murder."

“A former Auschwitz guard acknowledged Tuesday that he bears a share of the moral guilt for atrocities at the camp, but told judges at the opening of his trial that it is up to them to decide whether he deserves to be convicted as an accessory to murder.

“Oskar Groening, 93, acknowledged having helped collect and tally money as part of his job dealing with the belongings stolen from people arriving at Auschwitz. That earned him the moniker "Accountant of Auschwitz."

“Groening testified that he volunteered to join the SS in 1940 after training as a banker, and served at Auschwitz from 1942 to 1944. He didn't mention directly participating in any atrocities and said he unsuccessfully sought a transfer after witnessing one.

"I share morally in the guilt but whether I am guilty under criminal law, you will have to decide," Groening told the panel of judges hearing the case as he closed an hour-long statement to the court. Under the German legal system, defendants do not enter formal pleas.

“On his way into the court in Lueneburg, south of Hamburg, Groening told reporters he expects an acquittal. He could face a maximum sentence of 15 years in prison if found guilty.

“Groening faces 300,000 counts of accessory to murder at the trial, which will test the argument that anyone who served as a guard at a Nazi death camp was complicit in what happened there.

“The charges relate to a period between May and June 1944, when some 425,000 Jews from Hungary were brought to Auschwitz and at least 300,000 almost immediately gassed to death.

"Through his job, the defendant supported the machinery of death," prosecutor Jens Lehmann said as he read out the indictment.

“In his statement, Groening recalled that he and a group of recruits were told by an SS major before going to Auschwitz they would "perform a duty that will clearly not be pleasant, but one necessary to achieve final victory."

“The major gave no details, but other SS men told Groening at Auschwitz that Jews were being selected for work and those who couldn't work were being killed.

“The trial is the first to test a new line of German legal reasoning that has unleashed an 11th-hour wave of new investigations of Nazi war crimes suspects. Prosecutors argue that anyone who was a death camp guard can be charged as an accessory to murders committed there, even without evidence of involvement in a specific death.”

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Imagine facing not one, but 330,000 counts of accessory to murder, even as a "non-participant" in the crimes in question.

Groening, I note, stated in an interview 10 yrs ago that it was their worldview at the time that the Jews wanted to "destroy" them so they had to act as they did to save themselves. This included, he said, the young children because they had "the blood inside them" that would "grow up" and be like the others who wanted to destroy them (the Germans). He didn't express any remorse in the clip I saw. Maybe he did so but they didn't show it in that selected portion of the interview. However, saying as he went into court that he expected to be acquitted doesn't sound remorseful either to me.

Even though we're talking 70 years ago, survivors continue to suffer, both for their own experiences and/or for that of family members and how it has affected their lives and the lives of their relatives and their memories and legacies.

For what was done, that continues to haunt survivors of the death camps and war zones, and their families and friends, anyone alive who participated directly or indirectly surely does bear moral guilt +/- personal actual guilt, depending on their level of participation.

My point in posting this topic is to note that 'even' a 'bystander' can be judged guilty, by self and peers, for whatever level of involvement they have in any acts that harm others. Regarding the Mormon Church, this could include anyone who worked at Evergreen, who knew or should have known, that their program to "cure" gays was cruel and unusual so-called treatment that should not have occurred. It could also include leaders who harp on against LGBTQ people from the pulpit, leading some members to thoughts, and acts, of suicide. Also, MPs who are complicit in forcing missionaries to work when ill, causing them additional stress and sickness, or who refuse to allow them medical care when they are obviously in need, for some to the point of actual death.

Moral guilt for staying silent at that point spreads amongst even those who did not participate in the act, or failure to act, when they witness, or are aware of, acts, or failures to act, that harm a person under their care and control.

If even a 93 year old so-called bookkeeper can be tried on 330,000 counts of accessory to murder, 70 years after the fact, how many others can we think of out there who are also "morally guilty" of harmful acts and failures to act and deserve to be called to account?

Please note: I am not comparing Auschwitz to any other circumstances or events. I am not even posting this to start a discussion about this particular case. I am focused more on the aspect of "moral guilt" and how it applies to the world of Mormonism as we know it.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2015 04:01PM by Nightingale.

He was a freaking book keeper.

His cult had him brainwashed not to see anything wrong with what else was going on.
Not all that different from Mormons or other cult members who say they would kill or die for their leaders.

Of course, knowing this does not help the victims.

...if I was 93, I would love to be incarcerated in a German prison. 3 squares, shower, fresh linen, interesting conversation with other living human beings. Sign me up............well, not right now.

Next week.............

Commenters on various news sites have reiterated that by the time he was informed about the goings on at Auschwitz, Groening (who was made drunk before he was told) was in no position to refuse...without being executed himself, with perhaps similar consequences for his family. Even apart from the disorienting ideology and propaganda, what would others do, faced with such a stark choice between survival and extinction?

I am interested in what he did with his life in the following 40 years or so before he started to speak out about the truth of the Holocaust. When did this conviction of moral guilt dawn upon him? And could he have devoted his subsequent life to some atoning service, again without jeopardizing his own and his family's and relatives' survival?

How about the good this 92 year old could have done but did the exact opposite of good a couple of weekends ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Tom_Perry

I didn't see on the link you provided (unless I scrolled right over it,) what did he do two weeks ago? I missed GC. Haven't watched any of those in more than ten years. I'm guessing it was conference related?

It wasn't in my link. I overheard a bit of two talks that was all and neither was Perry's talk. I just heard the sound bite from it - gay marriage and families are counterfeit families.

Basically, the gist I got was they are accepting gay Mormons in a limited way and any gays out there getting ideas on creating families are trying to print false family currency as they will never be forever families or even real world families.

Pretty much a sucker punch to gay people with soul mate + kids aspirations.

It wasn't just gays getting married, but single people having kids also. These were the artificial families; whether the gays/lesbians have adoptions, surrogates or artificial insemination or singles adopt or have artificial insemination or however they start a family; to Perry they're not sanctified by God and therefore unholy.

It's just another question. WHERE DO THEY DRAW THEIR LINES? God is more worried about how many holes are in a woman's ear than about 100,000 Jews that you just marked approval on to be exterminated? You inventoried their assets and the worth of what their gold teeth and glasses were going to be worth? Yet, you were just a bookkeeper? Reminds you to talk to Bishop Grobel about Rickert...you did see him buying a can of coffee yesterday....Praise to the Man who communed with Jehovah..

When I worked in New York City, back in the 80s, I came into contact with a lot of customers of my business. Of course there are many Jewish people in New York, and quite a variety of them as well. One day I was waiting on a lady, and I glanced down to her forearm, where I saw a tattooed string of numbers. I was stunned to realize that I was looking at the tattoo of a concentration camp survivor. The lady pushed her sleeve down to hide the tattoo from my wondering eyes. Part of me wanted to say, you should be PROUD that you survived such an appalling evil -- but I respected her desire for privacy. I couldn't even begin to imagine just how many loved ones she had lost, or just how much courage it must have taken her to start over and be willing to find whatever happiness she could in life.

And yes, Nightingale, woe to those who are complicit in evil, no matter what form it takes.

You're right. Evil is evil, no matter what form.

There are moral absolutes, no matter what someone's religion, creed, or background.

It's well known in US Intelligence circles that LDS is the single most prominent group of hirees in the FBI, CIA, NSA, and now HSA, etc.

Reason is that Mormons make very good patriots. They're willing to lay down their life for their country, and also are easily led by those in authority.

I've seen abuses of power within the church patriarchial system of blind leading blind to the detriment of one or both. If the person giving the orders has the *god given authority* then their orders are as good as commandments.

That's leaves room for wide abuse of power, and it operates like that to this day.

I've heard this batted around, but wonder how true it really is. Are there any real statistics?

I've just heard it so many times amongst Mormons, and at Boise State U. where I attended college, I accepted it as truth.

I have several members of my own family who've worked for intelligence agencies. All of them LDS.

There was the John Walker spy family ring that was busted in the 1980's for their conspiracy of US Naval Intelligence. They operated at the highest levels within it. And were all LDS.

There was another famous Mormon spy who became a double agent the following decade. He, like the Walker family, I believe are still serving life sentences in the federal penitentiary.

It seems like it was a topic for discussion in one of my Political Science classes while at Boise State during the 1980's. Now with the exodus out of the church, that stat may be changing.

When I visited DC in 1988 for a short stay, I met tons of LDS CIA people. That's because my sister-in-law was one at the time, where I was staying. Most of their friends in their Reston, VA ward were CIA and other US spy agencies.

My brother, her spouse, had the same clearance at the time as the John Walker family did.

They've been "out" for more than 20 years. Their work was so top secret they couldn't even discuss between themselves as husband and wife.

I can also say they're both blind devotees of Mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2015 08:43PM by amyjo.

What makes you think the Walkers were LDS?

My question as well.

It seemed at the time the Walkers case was in the news, late 80's it was emphasized they were LDS. I'll have to check because that information isn't provided on wikipedia. I may be confusing that for another high profile spy John Fisher, he was FBI and very much LDS.

John Walker Jr died recently, in 2014 in prison. He was eligible for parole in 2015.

The majority of the Nazis who ran Auschwitz and other death camps were never brought to justice. Many were even allowed to go free, or given cushy jobs. Thousands of Nazi war criminals escaped Europe after the war and ended up in Australia, South America, Africa, etc. They were particularly welcome in the Middle-East, by the like-minded anti-Semites there who had colluded with them during the war.

One of my Jewish cousins whose grandparents were murdered in the Holocaust, believes that Hitler didn't really die, and that instead of killing himself, escaped to South America. There's actually a conspiracy theory about that happening. I was surprised she believes it, but there's actually a quite factual account that sounds credible, even if it weren't true.

amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One of my Jewish cousins whose grandparents were
> murdered in the Holocaust, believes that Hitler
> didn't really die, and that instead of killing
> himself, escaped to South America. There's
> actually a conspiracy theory about that happening.
> I was surprised she believes it, but there's
> actually a quite factual account that sounds
> credible, even if it weren't true.

There's a movie about that from the '70s, 'The Boys From Brazil'. It's vaguely possible, but unlikely. Lots of top Nazis did go there, including Adolf Eichmann who was captured by the Mossad, taken to Israel and tried and executed in 1961.

Mormon leaders told German saints to support Adolf Hitler.
Mormon missionaries helped coach Hitlers basketball team for the 1936 Olympics.

Some "prophets, seers and revelators" they were. Telling people to support one of the most evil men in history rather than warning one and all (at the very least, their own members) of what evil he was or would become.

I believe atheists have a harder time accepting the notion of moral absolutes. Or maybe it's the other way around: they (we) have an easier time accepting moral relativism.

I recognize that I could be presented with a scenario that I would agree was an absolute moral abomination, but another person might not agree.

In my mind, one reason to participate in a Debate Society is to learn to be able to create, fathom and dispute moral issues. This concept has little play in society today, because the most common response we each make when we hear something with which we do not agree, is "Eff you! Shut up or I'll punch your lights out!" It's very difficult to work towards an understanding in such a situation.

Compromise has become anathema, unless it's going to cost you a lot of money; then it's not such a bad thing.

I can say, from personal experience, as one who had a high level security clearance, that many people who work in security in government agencies are fruit loops with power issues. TBMs would fit right in.

I worked with Mormons at the gov agency where I was employed as contractor. I am a nomo, but experienced mobots when the missionaries reeled in a post college apartment mate. She tried TSSC and then had enough of it and tried to get out. I regularly told missionaries she was not at home when they called and stopped by. The missionaries won and she married a RM and got sealed (like a zip lock bag) in the temple, and her mother was excluded.

F@cking cult.

I think Groening deserves to be exposed, and I commend him for having considered his own moral guilt.

However, the 300,000 murders are an inflated charge designed to keep the German guilt industry perpetually in motion and feeling good about itself. If anyone actually cared about justice, something like 300,000 counts of theft would have been more accurate and informative.

Cyber warfare spying makes bold move to Utah

https://youtu.be/8lBIaRTdD9A

From UTML.org, a news report on Mormons in CIA spying,

"Speaking of the CIA, Tad Szulc states:

"An enormous sense of loyalty develops within this elite corps, and this also leads to an unquestioning acceptance of orders from above." (Compulsive Spy, page 33)

The Mormon missionary is certainly trained in this type of absolute obedience to authority. In the ward teacher's message for June 1945 we find these statements:

Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes, whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the "prophets, seers, and revelators" of the Church is cultivating the spirit of apostasy. . . . Lucifer . . . wins a great victory when he can get members of the Church to speak against their leaders and to "do their own thinking.". . .

When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan—it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. (Improvement Era, June 1945, page 354)

Heber C. Kimball, First Councilor to Brigham Young, made these statements:

. . . learn to do as you are told, . . . if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it, none of your business whether it is right or wrong. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 32)

If you do things according to counsel and they are wrong, the consequences will fall on the heads of those who counseled you, so don't be troubled. (William Clayton's Journal, page 334)

It would certainly be easy for a Mormon to extend this type of thinking from Church leaders to government leaders."

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no38.htm