My Non-believing Mormon Dad asked me.

Because almost ANY structure is more sound than one based upon an abusive, racist, sexist, misogynist, homophobic 19th Century bogus narrative that ends in apocalypse.
That AND I refuse to remain silent as my children were brainwashed to believe those abusive myths.
That AND I refuse to be subjected to the fake "authority" of a false Prophet who knew no more about Gods intentions on 9-11 than the dog laying on my back porch.

Because it didn't work for me.

Aloysius Wrote:
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> Because it didn't work for me.
Right?
It quit working for me when I was forced to remain silent as my kids were being brainwashed to believe hateful bullshit.

Me too.

Aloysius Wrote:
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> Because it didn't work for me.
=======================

AND it's an expensive hobby, but that cleaning toilets on Saturdays thing almost made it worth it

Only a sucker would give a bunch of ossified old men ten percent of your income for live for a (nonexistent) chance of becoming a god in the afterlife.

Because that structure and its leaders acutely betrayed my best interests and refused to be held accountable for their actions.

Dad...it didn't work for me or millions like me.

If my payment doesn't deliver Planet making 101 classes and God powers then screw that system.

You don't.

You abandon a faulty structure as soon as you see how dangerous it is.

define "worked for you".

Even false narratives give structure and a sense of meaning to people who believe in them.

Belief in Santa Claus, structures and shapes the experiences of children every year on December 24 and 25. In that sense, maybe you can say that the belief in Santa Claus is a structure that works for them. It can also work against them if it prevents them from accurately perceiving reality. Imagine if some child refused to give up on the belief in Santa Claus and, later, after having children of her own, promised them each year that Santa Claus was going to bring them wonderful gifts just like she had received when she was a child. Imagine how disappointed her children would be year after year when they got nothing. Imagine all of the other bad effects that would ripple out from there as a result of one person's refusal to give up on a false narrative.

As faulty, even abusive, as it was, I hung onto Mormonism, because I believed it was "working for me." That was probably the biggest lie of them all, in my Mormon experience: that it was making us happy.

For me, too, the last straw was when they tried to brainwash my children, and instill fear into them, and physically abuse them! I had no choice, other than to gather up my kids and RUN!

DUH--it was a no-brainer for me, as a mother.

Tell your dad that it's the same impulse that causes people his age to walk away from their jobs after a lifetime of work, downsize their houses, and perhaps move someplace warm. Your needs change.

First of all, what works for us changes.

Secondly, even if it doesn’t, it’s a matter of integrity. If the mormon culture still worked for me and I was perfectly happy, I think I can honestly say I still would have left anyway. LDS inc. is built on lies. But I just can’t see how all the other cult like problems, which are monumental can work for anyone. To some degree such people are still brainwashed even if they don’t believe in it.

That second point would be my reply to anyone who is of the mindset that it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, it’s all fine anyway because it “works” for him. I just can’t stand hearing that. And then to try and push that mindset onto me as well? That person has now gone from living without integrity to being a manipulator. I suspect such people are afraid and you are threatening to them. Secretly your dad probably admires you, so stand up for the fact that you, at least, have integrity, and don’t let him try to guilt trip you again.

"Because almost ANY structure is more sound than one based upon an abusive, racist, sexist, misogynist, homophobic 19th Century bogus narrative that ends in apocalypse."

For a moment there, I thought you were talking about the US government.

Who needs a structure wherein the only way to maintain it is to constantly mutter, "Get thee behind me, Science." ???

The structure is designed to maintain the status quo with the individual adapting to the structure. This is a static position of no value to the individual who is indeed another brick in the wall, even if it is easy to have the rest of the bricks holding it up.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." George Bernard Shaw.

When you leave the structure, "becoming" becomes possible. Becoming something better even it if is harder and trepidating. Exploration stomps all over sameness as it walks away from the structure.

No wonder most of us are out. I could go ask my nephew, who is living in his trailer here when he isn't working (starts today in Montana--builds bridges for the government). I'd like to hear him LOL!

I lived it because I thought if I did, nothing bad would happen to me. Well, so much for that. Even mormon people use my example as someone who did it all correctly and this is what happened. Now it's my fault for leaving.

NOTHING in mormonism worked for me, as hard as I tried. And I tried so damn hard.

Okay, one thing, I always go back to those men I worked with in the lab at Thiokol. They were one of the best things that ever happened to me, but even couldn't figure out how in the hell my life ended up like it did.

My daughter is trying to make it work. She's going for the same outcome I was waiting for. I've already seen how it doesn't work for her, but she isn't willing to see it yet. One of the reasons I know she stays is because my dad, of all people, told her to keep going to church just before he died. I asked my nephew if my dad ever told him that (and my nephew spent a lot of time with my dad) and he said, "NEVER."

As my therapist said, "We both tested mormonism to its very limits and it failed us."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2019 01:15PM by cl2.

Why did the slaves leave the plantation when Lincoln freed them? BTW, many stayed.

Ask dad to define "worked".

In mormonism "worked for you" means that you went along with it, regardless of the results. The idea that mormonism just "works" for everybody "so why would you leave it" is insane.

The "structure" of being kind to others and not being an a-hole is common sense.

The "structure" of the Church™ is built on obedience to power, false narratives, and money.

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
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> The "structure" of being kind to others and not
> being an a-hole is common sense.
>
> The "structure" of the Church™ is built on
> obedience to power, false narratives, and money.
Right. I didn't abandon compassion or empathy for my fellow men, which is what religion is supposed to foster, I abandoned the opposite of that, tribalism and group think, which didn't work for me after witnessing 9-11.

How I see it:

If you're not honest with yourself, then it might work for you.
If being lied to and feeling betrayed doesn't bother you, then stay with the church.
If being criticized regularly is a good thing, then keep going.
If paying a ten percent tax (and more) makes you happy, then stay.
If doing a lot of work without praise or gratitude floats your boat, then keep it up.

I never found a middle ground. It was always 100% all the time. Anything less was labeled as a cheater, dishonest servant of the lord.

I tried hard to make it work. I was encouraged to serve a mission and ensured that I would never feel alone if I gave it my all. Well nobody told me that I would be threatened for telling the truth at the MTC after the teacher was sexually assaulted. Nobody warned me that the church would have a mission president that told missionaries to "hit the road if they had problems." I had a companion that didn't say a word for 24 hours. He locked himself in the bedroom and I was sick to my stomach thinking he had or was committing suicide. I had another companion that suffered epileptic seizures. He never warned me and I had a panic attack not knowing what to do.

And after my home burned, the only person that came over to check on my well being was the ward's financial clerk. He wanted his damn keys to the building. So I went to the charred wall and threw them at him.

And to this day, I have siblings (who conveniently left the church as teenagers) who are ANGRY with me because I left after serving a mission and a temple marriage. They say I crushed my Mom's heart. Well, Mom had a choice to live and join the church as a convert. Why can't I have the choice to leave?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2019 01:50PM by messygoop.

Yes, that’s just it, you have to do 100% or else what is the point? It’s an all or nothing structure.
That’s terrible about your house burning, I’m sorry to hear that. I noticed that post mormonism when my house was broken into, and wrecked, that no one was really concerned (family). There was some practical help given initially but they wanted nothing to do with it ultimately, especially giving emotional support. That was shocking to me. But I think the religious mindset is that not only should you never complain, and not admit you’re unhappy, but that bad things don’t happen to good people. That’s what I’ve picked up on. And there’s the rub: because this mindset is what makes people incapable of real empathy and compassion.

When I’ve been through terrible things I find out quite quickly who my real friends are.

The other thing I have only just caught onto recently, is that mormons see themselves as innocent victims, no matter what they do or say. I was quite taken aback when - after years of feeding negativity to my daughter about me and me finding out (which was heartbreaking) - my brother and SIL show up like nothing happened. And my brother was the one who looked hurt! It was painful for me and is very confusing to say the least, but if your lifestyle, the words you say and the actions you take, were mandated by “the Lord” and his “Holy Spirit” then of course you’re gonna think you’re always right and justified.

Well, silly me. I should have read their minds and known in advance that I will always be wrong about everything.

LOL

Seriously? Give me a break.

The only reason such things are behind my back rather than to my face is because I stood up for myself and wouldn’t take any BS. (Of course this was “unforgivable”, which is ironic coming from a believer in jesus). But whatever. They will never change so it’s helpful to see the psychology behind the manipulation and BS whether or not you call people out on it.

They try to get people to leave their structure and join the church all the time. Funny how they seem to think other people should abandon their traditions and structure but not them.

I’ve found that mormons find it difficult to put themselves in other’s shoes. There’s a lot of virtue signalling and cheap talk about respecting other religions and other beliefs (eg articles of faith, mormons who supposedly hate racism, etc) but they really just believe their way is just superior. I try not to forget that when they are ‘nice’ to me.

What’s the difference between the gradual closing of the mind and the chains of Hell?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jH-mhZLuGRk

Why'd anyone abandon Hindenburg?

Here is a true, but metaphoric analogy.....

I like ice cream. Its one of my favorite treats. All my life there hasbeen ice cream in the freezer. I ended up gravitating to Ben and Jerry's and always had it around.

One day in summer, my wife and I went to a camp out on private property for 4th of July. The property owner made ice cream and brought it out for all to share. I tried it and it was very good.

So I decided to start making my own. I bought a $25 ice cream machine and a $6 Ben and Jerry's recipe book on Amazon. I made the first batch per the recipe book and after that I started creating my own flavors and altering proportions, using the book only for guidance when necessary.

I've made some really good ice cream. My friends and coworkers tell me its as good or better than B&J's and even Salt and Straw (local Portland, OR stuff). It even landed me a spot on the local NBC news channel this past summer.

So yeah, why would I abandon a structure that worked for me all my life? Buying ice cream in the store? Because I found something that produces a better product, it's healthier because I control the ingredients, it costs less money and leave a smaller carbon footprint, and it allows me a greater freedom of choice than buying it at the store. Because its cheaper and better, I can share liberally with friends, neighbors, coworkers (and I do) and they find great joy in it and ask for more.

No one say's...but it's not Ben and Jerry's or Hagen Das, the only true ice cream......they say.....wow, this is better than Ben and Jerry's, you should be selling them your recipes and make a fortune!

That's why I abandoned the structure of retail ice cream.

And if any of you come to Portland, OR you can have some!

Well that wouldn’t work for me because I’m lactose intolerant.

That’s not to say I don’t love ice cream and that I’m not happy for you. You’ve actually made me hungry. It’s bedtime, and now I will dream of ice cream, which I can’t have. :-)

Anyway, I can recognise that mormons have something that works for them and not for me. But can I be happy for them and secretly wish it worked for me too?

The answer is no. And I’d argue no one can be happy in this system. But they don’t know any different and would feel guilty admitting it if they did recognise they weren’t happy. The analogy is more like, they are eating poisonous ice cream and enjoying the flavour, and they may never know that it’s poison.

If ex-mormons are eating a new, different, and possibly better type of ice cream, I doubt the mormons would even notice. Sad.

Why would you abandon a roach-infested dive? Better to make a TV show like “Joe’s Apartment”.

I agree with those who say it wasn't working.

Some things did work for me. I am a family oriented person, a suburban dad type; so that aspect of Mormonism generally was okay for me. I like healthy living, so word of wisdom was never a problem--even though it is conceptually flawed. I'm not into beards.

But a lot of things were not working. I had trouble reconciling all the contradictions and inconsistencies in Mormon thinking. I was wracked by guilt, because I just didn't seem to get personal revelation about every little thing in life like other people. It turns out that's just not a good decision making approach for me. I hated interviews with priesthood leaders. I just didn't feel like I was making personal progress because of the church.