Dave the Atheist Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I have mixed emotions about this.
Me too. Smoking is one of the most disgusting habits out there, and it affects everyone within a few hundred feet of the smoker. The dangers of inhaling second hand smoke are well known. But spraying someone with a fire extinguisher is out of line.
IMHO, if you want to smoke, you should do it at least 500 feet away from any public entrance, or in your own home, and not in the presence of children. Heavy, heavy, penalties should apply to violators.
alsd Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Dave the Atheist Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I have mixed emotions about this. > > > Me too. Smoking is one of the most disgusting > habits out there, and it affects everyone within a > few hundred feet of the smoker.
If that were true then we'd all be long dead just from the exhaust of hundreds of cars sitting in traffic or driving past while you sit at a sidewalk cafe.
The guy was clearly outdoors and I did not see many people close by. The extinguisher guy shoulda got a punch in the face.
Brother Of Jerry Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > He will get a fine and a lawsuit, which is worse. > > To alsd, you apparently have no idea how far 500 > feet is. Oy.
I spent two years working on a football field, which is 360 feet long, so yes I have a pretty good idea how long 500 feet is. And I do mean it, 500 feet. Cigarette smoke is nasty, and very easy to smell from very long distances.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2019 04:59AM by alsd.
Presumably your 500 foot outdoor smoke free ring would include the outdoor space around private homes. Why should private residences be subjected to outdoor smoke while people in a condo building get protected?
That would essentially ban outdoor smoking anywhere in any village, town or city. Good luck with that, and also good luck with showing cigarette smoke at 450 feet is more dangerous than car and bus exhaust, restaurant kitchen exhaust, fireplace and wood stove smoke, etc.
The university I worked at banned all smoking anywhere on campus including outdoors. They were accused of extreme nanny-statism, but they were able to make most of the ban stick. They were taken to court, which ruled they did not have the right to ban smoking on public streets that went through campus. So all the smokers were out on the sidewalk on Universty Avenue. Having to walk up to several blocks in the wintertime just to have a cigarette convinced most people to quit, but there were a few diehards (pun intended)
Side note: BYU enforces private ownership of all roads on its campus, so they can ban smoking everywhere on campus by anyone. They do this by closing access to all campus roads at least one day a year. That's why sawhorses block the streets there every January 1.
The practice of blocking off the private ways once a year not only brings the thread to RfM relevance, but also teaches us something--it's a practice going back to English Common Law. This allows BYU to establish suzerainty over those "private ways" which aren't as private as most people think.
MESSachussetts has legalized marijuana. A downside of this is that it's a problem for people in substance recovery. I have a pretty solid "program," so I find it (only) very annoying, but I know that it's a real problem for other people, and can be a factor in triggering a relapse.
all as rebellion against the lds church and we tend to be an addicted family, so I don't see many of them quitting. I'm always the family member who went out to smoke with these guys even as a TBM. I'm overweight. Who am I to judge? Is my health better than theirs? I doubt it.
This guy should be charged with assault. This is NO ANSWER no matter what.
I absolutely abhor cigarette smoke and actually don't encounter much of it going on since it's banned in most public spaces in NY and none of my close friends or family members smoke.
That being said, this guy with the extinguisher is a complete jerk.
I agree, the smoke should be tried for assault. Oh, you're not talking about the smoker you say? Well in that case, it was self-defense. The restaurant owner was defending himself. Clear case of self defense. Makes as much sense as your bull**** reasoning.
Not sure exactly why everyone (in general, outside of this group) seems to be having a hard time understanding that what the asshole with fire extinguisher did was assault. Somehow they seem to think that he was justified in his actions because they don’t like smoking. Who knows, maybe they were just dropped on their heads at birth?
I get it. They didn't arrest the guy because "he left the scene". So, go to his house. That was assault. The guy went to the hospital. He could have major eyesight issues. If you confronted a guy walking his dog while it was crapping on your lawn, hit the guy or shot him in the face with a fire extinguisher, you'd be arrested. Yeah, smokers are a pain. But vigilante justice is illegal. The restaurant will be paying out to the victim. If SLPD don't arrest that asshole, we have major judicial problems. I'm hoping social media pressure will force them to act.
I am not a smoker, but you don't go around shooting people in the face with an extinguisher. This would be a different story if this took place inside restaurant or a shop; I might have a bit of sympathy. The outdoor courtyard wasn't crowded with people so I question the heavy use of force.
How do you all see this one?
Downtown outdoor mall is closed to traffic. Only pedestrians and a light rail train line. A family consisting of Dad, 10 year old girl and a 5 year old are slowly riding in the middle of the closed street. Some people sitting at an outdoor planter/bench begin to holler at the bicycle group that they can't ride through. Two young men get up to get to confront the Dad. He stops riding and so does the 10 year old. The little 5 year old is still peddling from behind. Another man runs over to her bike and kicks the back tire. The bike flops over and the little girl flies off the bicycle. She scrapes her arm, but the bike helmet protects her head from the fall. The man screams "We told you to stop riding your bike."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2019 11:31AM by messygoop.
Edit: laws and legal terms vary from state to state. The victim's age (5) probably makes it "aggravated" in some places, or defined differently elsewhere.
Special circumstances and victim categories (circumstances, age, minority or relationship factors, etc.) can enhance a crime's legal severity. So if the man hit the father, that would be a simple A&B. But the child's age probably enhances it, thus arrest more likely than a mere court summons, and augmenting legal penalties.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2019 12:18PM by caffiend.
If the smoker was within that 25' limit I could almost support him getting splashed with a cup of water... think of the NY police that were dumped with buckets of water for doing their job.
On the other hand, spraying the guy with a fire extinguisher is assault plain and simple, the police have video, he shouldn't be hard to find.
The powders in the extinguisher could cause major eyes, nose, throat and lung damage. I see a major law suit in the works.
If someone did that to a street person in Seattle, the assaulter would be lucky to be alive, he'd either been shot or stabbed.
I totally agree. In my former workplace, the smokers would go outside to smoke but congregate on the side of the outside door where you had to scan your badge to get the door to open. So you had to step into the smoke ring to do that. I'd just grab the door handle and say "could someone scan that?" to make a point. FINALLY security got enough complaints that they made a rule about them having to be a certain distance from the door and scanner, which meant they weren't under the awning if it rained. It was just an on-going nuisance. However, I would never have seen anyone doing something physical to them, whether it was throwing water in their face or especially an extinguisher, with its toxic chemicals, to the face as being anything other than assault. And why would someone want to be a total asshole for the sake of being an asshole? Oh, wait. Utah. I remember.
I agree about the dangers of spraying people with fire extinguishers. I had fire-fighting training in my company and we were specifically WARNED about this because there are some very nasty chemicals in some fire extinguishers. The guy should be prosecuted.
Yeah the fire extinguisher is over the top and could endanger the smoker, but I understand the frustration.
There's a non-smoking zone in front of Union Station in DC, but it's never enforced. It's really frustrating to walk through with a bunch of people smoking in spite of the ban.
I'm of mixed mind with Dave and alsd.
With respect to the Mormon aspect of all this, I think smoking is a good example of something not to take up just because it is something the LDS Church said it was bad. It really does cause cancer, heart disease and other serious illnesses.
If someone is smoking too close to a building entrance, you ask them politely not to smoke too close to the building or in a designated smoking area. Spraying someone in the face with a fire extinguisher for smoking is overreacting and that guy should be charged with assault.
Of course I'm biased as a former smoker (nicotine free since March).
Regarding "asking them politely not to smoke" seems to be the right thing to do, but in this day and age, even that has its risk. Road rage is common enough, but so is bicycle rage and pedestrian rage--people who respond in an excessive, even violent way, to such complaints about not picking up after a dog, littering, and so on. These things call for an accurate, intuitive assessment of the offending party, and careful tact.
It is a crass and tasteless derogatory term for a person who lives in the state of Utah. It is a portmanteau of the word "Utah" with the bigoted insult "retard."
The smoker is clearly homeless so hopefully this serves as a wake up call to him. Perhaps he will get a real job and haircut and ditch the shopping cart. There is no reason anyone needs to smoke. It is just useless.
nolongerangry Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The smoker is clearly homeless so hopefully this > serves as a wake up call to him. Perhaps he will > get a real job and haircut and ditch the shopping > cart. There is no reason anyone needs to smoke. It > is just useless. I'm not a smoker and I think it is incredibly rude to subject others to your Class A carcinogen 2nd hand smoke, so I understand the impulse, but that doesn't make it right to shoot a guy in the face point blank with a fire extinguisher, even if he does look homeless. WTF does that have to do with the right to freedom from assault?
"Alex Jamison, co-founder of Salt Lake’s Monkeywrench, Buds and Boltcutter, posted on each of the restaurants’ Facebook pages Monday, apologizing for his actions and relinquishing his position as a shareholder in the companies."
They are trying to keep the restaurants from being sued, legally separating the sprayer from the restaurants. Probably too late. He was a co-owner at the time of the incident.
I would say this is assault, I hope it makes national news, normal people stay the hell away from these Mormons, they are fucking mean. that man had permission to smoke, and he was outside
Boy, that's rich in irony. Jamison has apologized and divested himself from the enterprises, saying,
"My behavior was unnecessary, and no way to treat another person regardless of circumstance. My business partner and I started this company to promote the message of non-violence towards all beings and I recognize my actions last weekend starkly contradicted that.”
Give him credit for taking some pro-active steps to rectify the situation, and admitting that his action was a large departure from his articulated ethics. If I had his ear, I'd suggest he look into some way to make a personal apology and financial restitution to the victims.
As SLPC continues to investigate we may be revisiting this thread in a while.
I don't give him credit for taking any such "proactive steps."
The video went viral. The whole world saw his egregious action. The second the incident went public, he had no choice but to make a forced apology and do what was recommended by lawyers to protect assets. This is about laws and self protection, not remorse or introspection. His demeanor during the confrontation and attack showed a very Alpha male approach. I understand the reason to suspect his being Mormon.
The bit about their "company's goal to promote the message of non-violence toward all beings" is about not killing animals and eating them and does not apply here except as desperately lame attempt to claim to be a really nice guy----deep down. Really deep.
Sometimes we don't think right when we let ourselves get all riled up.
what I find most peculiar is the restaurantiers defense and reasoning "My business partner and I started this company to promote the message of non-violence towards all beings" Shouldn't a restaurant's mission be to make a buck, and feed some people whatever?
Vegans are an odd bunch. These downtown hippsters have a peculiar worldview. There is something kind of wussy about the guy.
Mormons hate smoking and look down on people who smoke. I used to work at a Mormon-heavy company. The guy who used the smoking area never got promoted in over 10 years. Smoking is seen as a major character defect.
I tend to believe that when I have to inhale 2nd hand smoke from a retard smoker, I have been unintentionally assaulted from the classless smoker. They're making me breathe in some nasty sh** into my body, which my body has to fight off somehow - and it's not fair. Smokers are shelfish egocentric mother f'ers who only care about themselves, their hit for the moment - and they can less about anyone else. If you are a smoker, I hope I have offended you right now - just like you offend everyone else every time you light up. You're just a lil shit in my opinion. Kill yourself slowly I don't give a f', but don't harm the rest of us. I totally agree with the fire extinguisher guy.
This is the only silver lining from my experience with Mormonism - the only thing the Mormons got right.
Ted Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If you are a smoker, > I hope I have offended you right now - just like > you offend everyone else every time you light up. > You're just a lil shit in my opinion.
Funny, back when I smoked I would have said the same thing about YOU.
Insulting smokers and spraying them in the face with fire extinguishers does NOT say "smoking is bad." It reinforces the stereotype smokers have that non-smokers are judgmental assholes.
We were at our son in law's baseball game a couple weeks ago. On the fence is a sign that clearly says:"No smoking allowed in this area". As we were standing there, we soon started to smell acrid cigarette smoke. My husband is allergic to smoke and it affects his asthma. A woman was standing about 15 feet behind us, smoking away. We were there with our daughter and grandchildren. We moved away, but she moved over on the other side of us. Our daughter didn't want to tell her to stop smoking because she didn't want to offend her because she also had a relative on the baseball team! While I personally wouldn't use a fire extinguisher, I wanted to get a bucket of ice cold water and dump it on her! I completely empathize with the man who used the fire extinguisher.
This is clearly a case of assault. The assailant immediately apologized and divested himself of ownership almost certainly because his attorney told him he was totally screwed and he needs to scramble. You don't get to do anything you want, even in the face of illegal activity.
The guy knew a camera was there and on. He was mugging for it. He apparently had no clue that what he was doing was going to land him in a big heap of trouble. This is "to the bone" stupid.
The only fairly recent event that I can think of that was stupider was the group of scouts and scout leaders that deliberately toppled a rock formation in Goblin Valley State Park, took a video of the action, and posted it on YouTube.
The only thing stupider than those two actions would be making a bomb joke in the security line at an airport. Some people's stupidity is truly jaw-dropping.