Many scholars believe the first Torah was written sometime during the Babylonian captivity, between 600-500 B.C. to consolidate written and oral traditions.

But Nephi took the brass plates, which you'd think would be pretty important to the process, unless there were other scrolls that contained the same information, or learned men had studied the history and genealogy of their ancestors and could recite from memory. So was Lehi an idiot that didn't know his own stuff, or did Nephi steal something that would screw up Jewish history for ages?

In other words, the BoM is a half-baked bible adventure tory.

--> "In fiction, a MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin) is an object, device, or event that is necessary to the plot and the motivation of the characters, but insignificant, unimportant, or irrelevant in itself. The term was originated by Angus MacPhail for film, adopted by Alfred Hitchcock, and later extended to a similar device in fiction."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin

Just like every Indiana Jones movie needed some archaeological object to propel the characters into their adventure, the object itself could have been virtually anything and it was never particularly necessary to know any details about the object. All that was needed were vague adjectives and descriptions ("important", "crucial", "powerful", "can't fall into enemy hands"....).

What was really important in Joseph Smith's comic book was to have a situation where Nephi could demonstrate his faith and bravery and, by contrast, reveal the sniveling, cowardly nature of his brothers, Laman and Lemuel. The brass plates were the MacGuffin device that made this little scenario possible. But it could have been anything. It could have been the "Sacred Staff of Aaron". It could have been the Liahona. (Think about it: Why couldn't God have just dropped the brass plates outside Lehi's tent the same way that the Liahona miraculously appeared? Why couldn't God have simply revealed the important stuff to his "Prophet" Lehi?)

Nephi was a thief and a murderer, and yet he’s held upas one of the best good guys in the BoM.

Good thing for Nephi that he’s a fictional character; otherwise, he’d have some explaining to do.

You never killed anyone because a voice in your head told you to?

LOL

Nephi had undiagnosed schizophrenia.

That's what I thought.

Me too!

Short answer, no he didn't. That's according to the Book of Mormon itself. However, the BoM makes claim for additional prophets - Zenos, Zenock and Neum who don't appear to be in the Hebrew canon, and also messianic materials which refer specifically to Jesus of Nazareth in the future. So make of that what you will.

Anyone who criticizes those prophets of God is nothing but a Zenophobe.

"Oui...when you hear Zenock at ze door, you know ze prophette eez arrive wit le mot juste and peerhapz a tweest of je ne sais quoi.

"Of ze otheers I know not the neum of one, but ze otheer he is ze one who haz zenos looking like ze nos of an elephant."

Well, one thing that makes me laugh is: "And it came to pass that my father, Lehi, also found upon the plates of brass a genealogy of his fathers; wherefore he knew that he was a descendant of Joseph..."

OK, somebody help me out--would not one of the important things a JEWISH PROPHET SHOULD KNOW IS HIS LINEAGE?? Maybe I'm wrong, but this seems like a logical thing.

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK, somebody help me out--would not one of the
> important things a JEWISH PROPHET SHOULD KNOW IS
> HIS LINEAGE?? Maybe I'm wrong, but this seems
> like a logical thing.

In certain respects, lineage can be very important within Jewish life, and knowledge of it can be passed down the generations several different ways:

1) Naming a child for a recent, or a more ancient, Jewish forebear, often signified in a form like this:

Aviva bat Moses (female), or Ari ben Moses (male), which could mean the actual "Moses" in the Bible, or perhaps a famous forebear (example: Moses ben Maimon (1135-1204), known more familiarly as Maimonides, or "the Rambam"--both names referring to one of the all-time most famous Jewish scholars).

2) Family histories, relayed verbally from generation to generation.

3) Ketubah (marriage contract). In contemporary times, and if I am remembering correctly, former Soviet Jews who wanted to make aliyah to Israel were required to produce a certain number of generational ketubot [plural of ketubah] to establish their female Jewish line (the only line which legally counted)--which, not surprisingly, was extremely difficult for many, according-to-Jewish-law, Russian Jews to produce. (There had been world wars, and local Communist oppression, and pogroms, etc. which all resulted in countless ketubot being destroyed.)

In a southern California wildfire which happened when I was a young adult, fire fighters KNEW, at a certain point, that particular neighborhoods fairly near to me at that time WERE going to be destroyed in the oncoming blaze. Squads of firefighters rushed from door to door in the previously evacuated neighborhoods, broke in, and tried to gather whatever they could that they thought would be of intensely personal value to the residents--and, besides family pictures on the walls, they were careful to include any framed ketubot they encountered in the items they took with them. Regardless of their own personal religious affiliation or non-affiliation, they KNEW that the ketubot on the walls were irreplaceable to that family.

The former Soviet Jews, at the time the USSR fell, were often placed in an impossible position as they attempted to establish their Jewish bona fides so they could become ["instant"] Israeli citizens. (Many of them, factually born Jews for the most part, were required to go through the Jewish conversion process so they could qualify for acceptance as LEGAL Jews for the purposes of making aliyah.)

So yeah, lineage in Judaism can be important, and--one way or another--Jewish prophets would very likely know their lineage (even if some of it was not, in truth, exactly factual ;) ).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2019 03:09PM by Tevai.

I discuss several of these issues in my article "The Brass Plates" at http://packham.n4m.org/brassplates.htm

What caught my attention is your listed first fact. Assuming that the language used is factual ("forefathers"), then this presumes that the 'foreMOTHERS' were NOT included, which is problematic if Nephi was supposed to be a Jew.

For all that historical Judaism is (with some notable exceptions: Ruth, Devorah, etc.) male-centric, MATERNITY is vital, since it is "the" qualification of whether any given person is a born Jew or not.

[Intentionally and as the result of deep ancient thought, biological fathers are irrelevant in determining Jewish descent. Not only was rape common back then (a woman could be raped simply by going to the river or whatever to get water, a "woman's job" worldwide), but there was, in addition, a cross-cultural/cross-"national" "gentleman's agreement" that children who were born, or later became, captive children would be raised in the religion of their MOTHERS--regardless of whether those mothers were slaves, plural wives, etc. And not only was Jewish legal status itself passed through the maternal line, any elevated status of male Jewish lineage, which would have the practical effect of elevating a child "socially," was also passed through the maternal line (as well as the paternal line). (If your mother was the descendant of [whoever], it added a whole lot to YOUR social standing within that local society.)]

Since the "History of the Jews" was intended for non-Jews only, awareness of Jewish law and ancient times wouldn't have existed for most non-Jews a couple of hundred years ago....but it stands out, as if highlighted, in current times.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2019 04:35PM by Tevai.

Tevai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What caught my attention is your listed first
> fact. Assuming that the language used is factual
> ("forefathers"), then this presumes that the
> 'foreMOTHERS' were NOT included, which is
> problematic if Nephi was supposed to be a Jew.

You have two problems with this assertion:

1. "forefathers" has always meant more or less the same as "ancestors", which includes women. The one occurrence of the word in the Hebrew Bible (Jer 11:10) it is a translation of the Hebrew word 'rishon' which means "ancestor" without regard to gender. Note that Jeremiah lived about the same time as Lehi was alleged to have lived.


2. Your knowledge of Judaism and Jewish customs of the last few hundred years (which I acknowledge to be impressive) does not necessarily apply to the Judaism of 600 BCE. Do you have any evidence that in 600 BCE anyone who did not have a Jewish mother was not a Jew? I.e, that Nephi believed that one was not a Jew if his or her mother was not Jewish?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2019 10:59PM by RPackham.

RPackham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What caught my attention is your listed first
> > fact. Assuming that the language used is
> factual
> > ("forefathers"), then this presumes that the
> > 'foreMOTHERS' were NOT included, which is
> > problematic if Nephi was supposed to be a Jew.
>
> You have two problems with this assertion:
>
> 1. "forefathers" has always meant more or less the
> same as "ancestors", which includes women. The one
> occurrence of the word in the Hebrew Bible (Jer
> 11:10) it is a translation of the Hebrew word
> 'rishon' which means "ancestor" without regard to
> gender. Note that Jeremiah lived about the same
> time as Lehi was alleged to have lived.

My knowledge of ancient Hebrew is virtually non-existent (I can read it phonetically, in a very halting way, and can understand the kinds of words English-speaking kids learn in "Dick and Jane" books), so I happily accept your greater knowledge.

"Rishon" means "the first," and it undoubtedly does have gender (because, to my knowledge, all Hebrew nouns do have gender), but I can't find any explication of this for this word.

Jeremiah began his years as a prophet in the thirteenth year of the reign of King Josiah (so: 627/626 BCE), and continued his work until the time of the Babylonian Exile (began: 586 BCE).
>
>
> 2. Your knowledge of Judaism and Jewish customs of
> the last few hundred years (which I acknowledge to
> be impressive) does not necessarily apply to the
> Judaism of 600 BCE. Do you have any evidence that
> in 600 BCE anyone who did not have a Jewish mother
> was not a Jew? I.e, that Nephi believed that one
> was not a Jew if his or her mother was not Jewish?

I am not attesting to the facts here, because we are talking about eras where proven facts are frequently hard to identify, but in Jewish tradition/Orthodox Judaism, matrilineality began at least by the time of the receiving of the Torah at Mount Sinai (identified as circa 1310 BCE).

Matrilineality was first codified in the Mishna (circa Second Century CE).

It is also important to clarify that valid conversions to Judaism existed, in an "informal" kind of way, before the time of Ruth (and usually had to do with a Jew and a non-Jew marrying--something that later became controversial, Ezra 9:1 and Nehemiah 13:1), so you didn't have to be born a Jew to become a Jew. The Book of Ruth (fifth century BCE), which made conversions "kosher" [Jewish joke], was written specifically for the purpose of establishing: conversions into the Jewish people are possible, and here is how (in fifth century BCE terms) it is done. (It is done differently now, but I don't know when the changeover happened.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2019 11:38PM by Tevai.

I think being Jewish at first, was thru the paternal side, until , like Tevai mentioned, rapes were very common, so paternity couldn’t be proved. Maternity, of course, could always be proven, unless like Moses , they were abandoned and found later, or not knowing where the child came from.
The only thing I wonder about is, back then , until recently, Jews were always driven from the land and divided, losing contact with family.Like after Mt Sinai, when they were walking, trying to reach Canaan. After everyone died in the desert after 40 years( first generation), except Joshua and Caleb, how did they keep records?
What about all of their descendants? Their were lots of battles and people dying, how did they keep records? Modern times, we have ways to keep pedigrees .

Hockeyrat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only thing I wonder about is, back then ,
> until recently, Jews were always driven from the
> land and divided, losing contact with family.Like
> after Mt Sinai, when they were walking, trying to
> reach Canaan. After everyone died in the desert
> after 40 years( first generation), except Joshua
> and Caleb, how did they keep records?
> What about all of their descendants? Their were
> lots of battles and people dying, how did they
> keep records? Modern times, we have ways to keep
> pedigrees.

Prior to the tenth century BCE, the Hebrews were likely "keeping their records" as other, equally ancient, peoples around the planet did: Memorizing the content, and then transmitting it from person to person orally--often aided by the use of memory devices, such as: mentally attaching a specific part of the narrative to a specific place (for example: a specific mountain), so those who "kept the records" could mentally switch from one specific mental location to another, sequentially reciting, in order, the appropriate parts of the narrative.

To date, the earliest specifically Hebrew writing that we know of was written in ink, on a pottery shard, found at Khirbet Qeiyafa, which has been scientifically dated to the tenth century BCE. The writing is in the Proto-Canaanite alphabet (the old form of the Phoenician alphabet).

So--at least from the tenth century BCE on--there was the ability to keep written records.

Before that, it was oral tradition, passed down generation by generation, often to specifically chosen people whose "job" it was to meticulously memorize each of these oral accounts, and then pass them on to those chosen, in each subsequent younger generation, who similarly memorized them (until the content was finally written down, when this became possible, evidently around the tenth century BCE).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Hebrew_writings



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2019 01:34PM by Tevai.

Kind of like the oral Torah, before it was written?