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Posted by: Lori C ( )
Date: October 16, 2019 04:51PM

This is 21 pages long but if you have the time is worth reading. There is absolutely no Homo sexual child or adult in this church that is safe.

Regarding what the church has done with conversion therapy today this needs to be spread far and wide.

https://affirmation.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/oaks_paper_02.pdf

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 16, 2019 07:26PM

Pretty sickening then. Pretty sickening now. Nothing has changed. Not with Oaks. Not with any of them.

Those disgusting old men are just more careful in choosing their words-- attempting to bookend their ugly agenda with benevolence like the new directive to continue conversion therapy. Sort of like a sandwich-- lots of Mustard, Mayo, a pickle, and a nice Sourdough to make you forget the cockroach in the middle.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 16, 2019 07:31PM

Ballard's lipstick on homophobic pigs.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: October 16, 2019 09:50PM

That's what happens when you give a first rate legal education to a man without a soul.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: October 17, 2019 09:11AM


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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 17, 2019 10:01AM

Ka-ching! You made my day LW. Mark Twain AND Dorothy Parker would be proud.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 17, 2019 11:23AM

The devil is in the depositions.

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Posted by: Margie ( )
Date: October 17, 2019 01:01AM

What a perverted male Oaks is. **** "religious law". My gosh, who thinks about sex between other people that much? He sure sounds like he knows a whole lot about "homosexuals". Maybe he went through conversion therapy at one time.Don't know, just asking.

In recent Mormon news: https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2019/10/16/lds-church-opposes/

I have two piggies and they are smart and wonderful.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: October 17, 2019 03:22AM

Yeah, but don’t forget what Jesus did to those cities in 3rd Nephi. Nobody really knows why Jesus was pissed off enough to destroy them, but due to the special discernment of Elder Oaks we now know it was the gays.

I don’t want Jesus to drop the Wasatch Front on top of Provo and SLC, do you? Yup, he hates gays that much. Dallin is just playing it safe.

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Posted by: a nonny mouse ( )
Date: October 17, 2019 12:34PM

Pg. 18: Homosexual marriages are wholly deviant to the patriarchal family."

YEP! homophobia is sexism! If marriage is not about a man controlling a woman and instead is about a relationship between equals, this challenges the patriarchy.

Pg. 19: "One generation of homosexual "marriages" would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide."

This argument only makes sense to closeted gay people. If massive societal disapproval is the the only thing keeping you from diving headlong into a gay relationship, I'm sorry to break it to you, but you're GAY! As for the other 90%, if gays are allowed to marry, they're still interested in the opposite sex, so no extinction is nigh.

Pg. 19-20 "There is an irony inherent In the Church's taking a public position opposing homosexual marriages. This should be mentioned here since it is sure to be noted by others. The leading United States Supreme Court authority for the proposition that marriage means a relationship between a man and a woman is Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 (1878). In that case in which the United States Supreme Court
sustained the validity of the anti-polygamy laws, the Court defined marriage as a legal union between one man and one woman. The court's stress In that case was on "one". The modern relevance of the Reynolds opinion is in its reference to marriage as being between "a man and a woman". The irony would arise if the case that is used as an argument for the illegality of homosexual marriages is the same precedent formerly used against the Church to establish the illegality of polygamous marriages.

Yep! Take that beam of your eye.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: October 17, 2019 01:18PM

Pg. 19: "One generation of homosexual "marriages" would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide."


Haha I forgot about that one. One single generation. hahahah. What you said is funny and true. "If massive societal disapproval is the the only thing keeping you from diving headlong into a gay relationship, I'm sorry to break it to you, but you're GAY!"


Also, is Oaks so stupid he doesn't know about turkey basters?

And uh, oh, I dunno. Overpopulation? To the point the planet is being destroyed.

Kids first, education later if at all. Yeah. Great plan.

It gets really hard to believe Oaks actually passed the bar exam.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 17, 2019 01:32PM

What Oaks failed to mention is the white and delightsome part of the depopulation of America. Lamanites can make up the difference. Funny how as a "prophet, seer, and revelator" he missed this?

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Posted by: Lori C ( )
Date: October 21, 2019 11:49AM


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Posted by: snowball ( )
Date: October 18, 2019 02:10PM

I thought this part was very insightful into the thinking of top LDS leaders on this subject. Here are a few early thoughts:

"...we can learn from the skillful way the Catholic spokesmen have communicated this critical distinction between tendency on the one hand and practice or advocacy on the other."

They certainly did learn it--perhaps over learned it. Think of all those painful distinctions between "same sex attraction" and "acting on those tendencies." The condition and act of homosexuality are hard to separate. It is certainly difficult to separate a straight person's attraction to the opposite gender from their acting on the impulse to have sex with persons of the opposite gender. We have the condition of desiring sexual relations, which for many is a very powerful drive (disciples of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young ought to understand that!).

If we understand that some people are naturally attracted to individuals of the same gender, then we have to accept that many will want to physically express that attraction.

What seems most striking to me is the extent to which Oaks, and by extension his circle, seem to assume that allowing social acceptance of homosexuality is incompatible with what they consider traditional family life. I am part of what Oaks would consider a traditional family, but attend a church with a lot of families led by same sex partners with children. The fact that other people in my social and religious circle are open about their LGBTQ+ identity doesn't really change what I want to do personally one iota. Since leaving LDS, Inc. I've interacted with a lot of gay and lesbian people and none have tried to invite me into their "lifestyle." That's understood to be each others own business.

Oaks seems to think that gay and lesbian people should not be in positions of being role models for young people such as teachers. He just can't accept that exposure to someone who is different will throw people into total confusion about their own sexual identity. Oaks goes so far as to consider homosexuals a "threat" in such positions, where he imagines they may promote and proselytize the homosexual lifestyle. A lifestyle that is (as others of you pointed out) only remotely interesting to someone who has the tendencies he is at pains to stress are okay.

Then Oaks accidentally throws his whole argument about this under the bus. Whoops! After reading page 15, I would start to wonder whether he thinks adulterers should be barred from being school teachers--although I'm afraid if he were honest he might say "yes and stone them too."

Oaks repeatedly talks about harms and "bad effects" associated with homosexuality's influence. But he doesn't ever seem to enumerate or provide evidence for what those "bad effects" are. He just assumes they are there--I suppose just knowing that people are having gay sex somewhere in the world right now is just too much for him to bear.

Again assuming there is a threat, he recommends LDS, Inc. take a hard stance against same sex marriage. Why?

Point #1 - The LDS Church believes that the family is the bulwark of society.

Ugh...ok...but why can't we expand our imagination a bit to include families led by two men or two women. I suppose that would upset someone being able to call priesthood rank on the other? LGBTQ people are generally the children of many straight parents. How is it defending the family to drive a wedge between them like this?

Point #2 - Procreative purpose.

We now have widespread practices of surrogacy and sperm donation. Also some same gender partners adopt children Oak's noble traditional parents will not or are unable to care for. So the human race will go on, put your feet up and relax.

I guess this point really came home for me the first time I attended a church with same-sex couples with children. It was something new to me, but what I soon realized was that some of these people were really great parents and their kids were lucky to have them. At the same time, I reflected on our backdoor neighbor while I was growing up, who I dubbed "swear lady," because she'd always curse at her kids in a loud voice. Now swear lady had a lot of kids (probably too many for her). Her husband was in and out of prison, or so I understood. I asked which would you choose to be a child in? Crazy unstable home with mean/absent parent, but at least you have a mother and father; or a stable, loving home with two partners of the same gender? Most sane people would choose the latter.

Now I started to get it, in what just universe does swear lady get to have a family--but these fine people I was witnessing don't! But that's exactly the society Oaks seeks to sustain in this memo--and still fights for today.

Point #3 - Time honored tradition

A lot of time honored traditions have been challenged because they are wrong. I will not list them all. As our understanding grows, so should our traditions.

Point #4 -- National suicide quote discussed above

see remarks on point #2, put up feet and relax.

I can see myself having written something like this screed from Oaks when I was Mormon. It is very precise, detailed, and well-organized--but it is also completely wrong because it lacks imagination.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 18, 2019 03:23PM

"--but it is also completely wrong because it lacks..."

It lacks life. They are the church of the dead.

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Posted by: Lori C ( )
Date: October 21, 2019 11:56AM


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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: October 18, 2019 03:34PM

What if groups actively lobbied and supported the idea that mormons were just too strange and untrustworthy to serve in youth influencing positions?

What Oaks and the other top bozos fail to realize is that their army of grunts aka missionaries are going out into the world and taking the criticisms of the crappy policies of their church. And yet a bunch of the missionaries take their public lickings in pride when the homophobic bigots ought to be taking it while knocking on doors.

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Posted by: Lori C ( )
Date: October 21, 2019 11:57AM


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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: October 21, 2019 03:21PM

My daughters are the bullseyes for these bozos. I have three Hermanas getting hit with valid criticism. Sheesh and the policy makes sit in the great and spacious building.

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Posted by: Anziano Young ( )
Date: October 21, 2019 07:05PM

I know he won't ever see it, but I'm thinking of mailing the following letter to church HQ:

"Mr. Oaks,

Your 1984 memorandum entitled “Principles to Govern Possible Public Statement on Legislation Affecting Rights of Homosexuals” was recently brought to my attention. Judging by your remarks in the most recent General Conference, you have not changed your almost-incredibly idiotic views in the intervening 35 years; so, as a former member of the Mormon church (by which name I will continue to refer to it) and gay man, I felt obligated to write you.

I take comfort in the knowledge that you will soon be dead yet have lived long enough to see your views on homosexuality all but consigned to the dustbin of history."

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