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Posted by: nonmo_1 ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 08:27AM

Are they US citizens or Mexican citizens? The group has been in Mexico for ~100 yrs or so. I know they travel between the 2 countries

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Posted by: stillangry ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 09:24AM

How many threads does this forum need about the LeBaron clan? Good grief!

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Posted by: loislane ( )
Date: November 11, 2019 02:31PM

The LeBarons are about the most interesting family I have come across.

The more I learn about them, the more I want to find out about them.

So bring on the threads!

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Posted by: Ted ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 10:06AM

News said they are "dual-citizens"..so both. Similarly, don't expatriots main their US citizenship? I think so.

Anyway, these are interesting threads because the Cartel's are pervasive and dangerous, it's just a popular topic here because of the Mormon connection.

So glad President Trump is such a great president, and willing to help Mexico if they just ask.

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Posted by: nonmo_1 ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 11:19AM

""News said they are "dual-citizens"..so both. Similarly, don't expatriots main their US citizenship? I think so."

Ex patriots from 100 yrs ago?? Many have never been patriots imo. They are "American-Mexicans" the flipside of Mexican-Americans here.

To me, they are Mexican citizens, not Americans..


Still...that is a tragedy for what happened to them.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 10:18AM

Their ancestors moved to Mexico when Utah was seeking statehood and US polygamists were sometimes being jailed. In more recent years many Le Barons have moved back across the boarder and have duel citizenship. The men travel back and forth to visit wives and children. The women travel with their children to Mexico for special events.

One of the fathers picked up his baby daughter at the kill site and sadly said in Spanish, "Your mother is dead."

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 10:57AM

The murder of this family didn't make your news feed, did it?

https://dmlnews.com/report-another-traveling-family-attacked-by-cartel-in-northern-mexico-one-dead/

After all, they were Mexican nationals. Below the radar, like the dozen or so young black men who will be shot dead in Chicago or Baltimore this weekend. But yes, the LaBarons stand out because their polygamy and American origins make them newsworthy to us.

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Posted by: Ted ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 12:02PM

If I was a black man in any major city in America, I would be scared sh** to drive around in my car. It's unbelievable what African American citizens put up with in the US. It should not be that way.

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Posted by: stillangry ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 12:18PM

There is no reason any black person should be scared of anything in America.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 01:41PM

At least none of which you are aware.

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Posted by: Ted ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 04:35PM

Dude..surely you don't believe that. Just get on YouTube, and you will see example after example of innocent black folks getting shot and killed by white police...pulled over for no good reason, and then shot. Stats show that black Americans are disproportionally pulled over and harassed by white police. Now I am very pro-police, but this aspect of policing in America must stop. Eric Garner is a great example..being tackled and choked for selling cig's. Wtf? I watch that video over and over again, and just about cry. The thing is there are more and more Eric Garner like stories every day.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 01:40PM

Ted, you are right.

We know the data. And your mentioning of driving while black is spot on. I have a dear friend, from an impoverished and disadvantaged background, who scraped his way through two great universities and rose to prominence in two famous companies. This middle-aged man with his own and adopted children recently told me that his anxiety goes sky high whenever he sees a police car in the rear view mirror.

If you are a black man, you can obtain a fine education, become wealthy, make major contributions to society, rear your own and adopted children, and drive a nice car in a nice neighborhood and still be subject to that roll of the dice which is a random interaction with law enforcement.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 01:59PM

Your friend has given in to anti-police hysteria.

The tragedy is black-on-black crime in the cities--that's where the death toll is. But as the anti-police mindset expands, you'll get more "de-policing" (in Baltimore, notably) as individual police officers reduce pro-active patrolling and threshold inquiries. "Looks like he's carrying a weapon, well, I'm not risking an Internal Affairs 'tab' to find out." "That car's circled the block three times now, not worth the risk to check it out..."

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 02:19PM

Caffiend, you are wrong here. I am not an African-American man, obviously, but I have had some very uncomfortable and inappropriate experiences with police. And I have other well-educated black male friends, including ironically a district attorney, who report the same concerns.

I venture that, given your personal career, you may have an instinctive prejudice in favor of the police. It wasn't too long ago, for instance, that we argued over the police treatment of that Vietnamese physician who was beaten on the UA airliner. You defended the officers, and you were off the mark--as subsequent investigations and punitive measures have shown.

My point is that while your personal experiences are valid per se, they do not invalidate variant experiences that others have. The world is not the same for everyone.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 04:30PM

Several ugly trends are involved here.

The blanket assumption that it's all racism. Racism, racism, racism. If a cop isn't accused of it outright, it's assumed. It's "implicit." Or "systemic." Or "unconscious." In a white-on-black shooting, the cop is assumed to be racist, and in the wrong, until and unless he can prove himself otherwise. Heck, my Harvard-affiliated junior Senator has stated that Law Enforcement is "systemically racist!"

Two years ago, two white plainclothes officer stopped a known gangbanger. He got out of his car and shot one officer wounding him, then was killed by the other. IMMEDIATELY, the BLA crowd was out there, pressing against the crime tape, inciting the neighborhood and demanding action be taken on the officers. As it was an active crime scene, the thug's corpse was on the street, covered, and they wanted his body removed. Boston command was able to round up some black clergy and showed them the dashcam video. The ministers were then able to quiet down and disperse the crowd, but this demonstrates the-cop-is-racist-and-wrong mindset at work. Suppose the shooting occurred outside the camera's lens? The officers would have been in a legally perilous situation.

Even black cops are assumed to be racist, like it's contagious. Or they're Uncle Toms serving at the behest of "the Man." Advance minorities into supervisory and command ranks, never mind, cops are racist, with trigger fingers just itching to shoot some black kid.

Second police are neither respected, and often not obeyed; routine police/civilian encounters frequently escalate to confrontational levels. People believe they can just refuse to obey police instructions without consequences.

"Please get out of the car."
"No."
"You have to get out of the car."
"I didn't do anything wrong. You can't tell me what to do. I won't."
(I've had that happen several times."

Let's consider the Vietnamese doctor's event.

1) Plane crew told him to get off the plane. Maybe they were wrong but they're in charge. He had other remedies, but he refused.
2) They call security. He still refuses.
3) Security has a choice: Allow him to defy their (and by extension, the airport's) authority or bodily remove him. What would YOU do? "That's all right. The person who's properly ticketed for this seat will just have to book another flight."
4) In a very confined space, he resists, flailing his arms and kicking, putting other passengers in harms way. It's tough enough cuffing a fighting suspect on a sidewalk--but in an airplane aisle?
5) having fought security--oh, my, poor guy got hurt!--Never mind risk to others) he's a VICTIM!! Time to sue for damages!
6) Airline can't endure the publicity, settles up and THROWS THE EMPLOYEES TO THE "SOCIAL JUSTICE" WOLVES (the "punitive measures" you mentioned). The jerk delayed the flight, and worse, showed the world that if you don't like what's going on, you can get your way if you're a big enough a**hole and create a major stink. And win big money, too!

This demonstrates the "de-policing" I was describing, above.

Further, the media is all-too-eager to assume the worst about police, contributing to the myth of L.E. racism. In 2018 the NY Slymes covered the shooting of an "unarmed teenager" in East Pittsburgh, whom they extolled as being in his school's honors program, a basketball player, "a very good boy," as mothers like to insist. He was shot in a car "that matched the description" of a car "involved" in a shooting nearby. Obviously, a victim a racism.

What the Slymes did not say was that the vehicle WAS the very car in the shooting (riddled with bullets--more than a 'match'), that a victim (and other witnesses) identified the boy as the shooter, that the gun was found in the car, that the empty magazine was found in his pocket, making the suspect and vehicle an exigent danger in a still-unfolding crime.

But the gun was found in the BACK seat, making him "an unarmed teenage," according to the Slymes. The cop was charged and tried, only to be acquitted by by a mostly black jury. But what about HIS trauma, lost wages, legal expenses, blackened (pun intended) reputation?

"Hmm...should I pull that car over? Frisk that shifty-looking guy on the corner? No, not worth it, I'll just write a report."

Lastly let's not overlook the fact that urban minorities account for violent crime rates disproportionate to their demographic. Here, racism is a valid consideration--the racism that has broke up the black home, fostered single-mother households, inculcated a victim mentality, disparaged the work ethic and steered all too many of then away from traditional values and middle-class lifestyles.

LW, please don't hit "Quote" and intersect my essay with line-by-line rebuttals--this will just go on and on and get the thread deleted. You're one who blames "the system;' I'm one who blames individuals. But advise your Black professional friend that, when he's stopped by a cop, to politely say "Excuse me officer, but first I need to call a Community Organizer."

Well, let's finish on a bright note: Black unemployment is at it's lowest in a half-century!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 05:39PM

> The blanket assumption that it's all racism.
> Racism, racism, racism. If a cop isn't accused of
> it outright, it's assumed. It's "implicit." Or
> "systemic."

You seem to have strong preconceptions on this score. It would perhaps be preferable to ask what other people's actual prejudices are or even to look at the data. Of course, that might mean examining your own biases.


-------------------
> Two years ago, two white plainclothes officer
> stopped a known gangbanger. He got out of his car
> and shot one officer wounding him, then was killed
> by the other. . .

There are scores, even hundreds of anecdotes like this--many undoubtedly true. But that in no way invalidates others' experiences. I again suggest you look at the data on arrests, sentences, incarcerations, etc. Just cherry-picking anecdotes allows all sorts of crazy interpretations.


------------
> Even black cops are assumed to be racist, like
> it's contagious. Or they're Uncle Toms serving at
> the behest of "the Man."

That is one argument. I don't find it generally helpful but in some cases it might be part of the puzzle. Yet I confess to again wondering why you reach so readily for an extreme hypothesis which is by its very nature a straw man.


-------------
> Second police are neither respected, and often not
> obeyed; routine police/civilian encounters
> frequently escalate to confrontational levels.
> People believe they can just refuse to obey police
> instructions without consequences.

I'm sure that is true in many instances. It does not justify what happens to innocent people. The key insight is that both sets of experiences may simultaneously be true.


-----------------
> Let's consider the Vietnamese doctor's event.

Your account here is interesting but suffers from what some might consider a serious flaw: namely, it is false. Yes, the airline took heat and looked for a publicly acceptable solution. Meanwhile, the law enforcement officials who beat that man were all punished for violating the law; and the airport security forces revised their procedures for that very reason.

You can bemoan the outcome if you want, but your characterization is inaccurate. The police do not get to manhandle a person who is abiding by the law. Their convenience, and that of the airline, is irrelevant.


----------------
> Further, the media is all-too-eager to assume the
> worst about police, contributing to the myth of
> L.E. racism. In 2018 the NY Slymes . . .

Is the NYT really relevant here? We are discussing individual experiences and perhaps overall data, not the media.


---------------
> Lastly let's not overlook the fact that urban
> minorities account for violent crime rates
> disproportionate to their demographic. . .

Yeah, that is to some extent true and to a much greater extent irrelevant. You have a worldview that makes it impossible to look at either individual cases or at general data. That is unfortunate.


--------------
> LW, please don't hit "Quote" and intersect my
> essay with line-by-line rebuttals--this will just
> go on and on and get the thread deleted.

Caffiend, you know I like you. But I will assuredly reply to your posts when I think they are erroneous. And in this case it was you who came after me.

I have no problem with that, but you can't reasonably criticize my views and then ask me not to defend myself. If the end result of our discussion is to get the thread deleted, it is assuredly not my fault. I will not quietly sit by and accept your worldview as authoritative.


----------------
> You're
> You're one who blames "the system;' I'm one who blames
> individuals.

Frankly, that is bullshit. As this exchange indicates, I am discussing individual experiences and you are claiming that it is the system--liberal preconceptions, the mainstream media, and blanket prejudices against cops--that is to blame. You can insist you are interested in individuals all you want, but you keep reverting to systemic reasons why we should discount what actual people experience. It is hard to be more hypocritical than that.

----------------
> But advise your Black professional
> friend that, when he's stopped by a cop, to
> politely say "Excuse me officer, but first I need
> to call a Community Organizer."

Is that meant as a serious contribution to the debate? It frankly represents the intrusion of your political views and your dislike for certain politicians into a discussion that was about something very different. You are violating the board prohibition against party politics.

But I guess if your post gets deleted, it is my fault. Right?


-------------
> Well, let's finish on a bright note: Black
> unemployment is at it's lowest in a half-century!

Again, you are introducing party politics into a discussion that was not about that at all. It's sad that the experiences of people who are in important respects unlike you are so triggering.

But my heavens, black people claim abuse: liberal conspiracy. You know that isn't rigorous thinking.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2019 04:18AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: good grief ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 03:24PM

In your mind, it seems the police officer is *always* justified.

Please defend the shooting of Philando Castile for us.

And the Oklahoma City cop who killed a deaf man who couldn't hear the cop's orders.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 03:49PM

I grew up White with Brown skin.

Cops can't see that inside I'm White...a real pasty white!

Nope, they see Brown and their reaction to me is based on what they see. And then when, during our interactions, they figure out that I am White-writing, in a Brown envelope, their reactions run a small gamut, from "Oh, I assumed you were both Brown and Brown-acting, sorry!" to "Just because you can act White doesn't mean I'm going to treat you White!"

"Driving while Black" is a real thing. Black and Brown people who know the ropes keep both hands high on the steering wheel after they pull over and stop for the red light in the rearview mirror.

I don't begrudge police officers their motivations but it's nice when they let me know that they've recognized I'm law-abiding, i.e., White on the inside.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 04:27PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Black and
> Brown people who know the ropes keep both hands
> high on the steering wheel after they pull over
> and stop for the red light in the rearview
> mirror.

That's what everybody should do.

1) Pull over promptly. Don't keep driving "looking for a good place to stop."
2) Put the car in park--take your foot off the brake pedal (brake lights off, got it?)
3) Open the door window.
3-A) If at night turn your cabin light on
4) Gripping the steering wheel is a bit much. Just keep your hands in sight. Have other passengers relax.
5) Tell the officer where your licence and papers are before you reach for them.
6) Don't argue, but do explain what you did, or didn't do, and why. It might help if you admit a degree of fault and ask for a break. On the other hand he may use that admission as reason to write you the ticket, and not the warning. It's part judgement call and part crap shoot.
7) I usually recommend appealing the ticket. If the cop doesn't show, you win. And if you argue the case you might get it reduced or dismissed.

Or, call Saul's Ticket Fixing Service.

Edit: Blue lights, not red. Red is fire. Everybody's happy when the fire truck arrives. Not so, the cops.

Something I've always wanted to do on a traffic stop:

Officer: "Do you know why I stopped you?"
Driver: "Yes Officer. You found the body. I'm willing to make a complete confession. And I'll tell you where all the others are buried. I'm just...glad...that you caught me, that it's all over. I'll go peaceably..."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2019 04:29PM by caffiend.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 10, 2019 06:03PM

Judge Dredd : The law doesn't make mistakes.
Fergie : Really? Then how do you explain what happened to you?

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Posted by: Ted ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 04:48PM

I just know what I see. Video clips don't lie. It is apparent that black people are pulled for reasons that may or may be petty, but then the stops quickly escalate into mayhem and terror. It should not be that way in America. Police must learn to back off and assess. They don't have to be so lethal. The car is stopped. Back off a bit....use your loud speak. Leave the gun holstered. Try some other non-lethal methods. Many are mentally ill...don't just blow them away.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwF6WvginIo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEjipYKbOOU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKQqgVlk0NQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqBAOX6Qegk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew4A5-CoVX4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUtwCHNDto4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0wKQfiXML8

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 06:40PM

I have found that what cops say they do and what cops actually do, seldom match up when Brown and Black people are involved.

I don't have any problem with the hardcore fact that the officers probably prefer doing it their way, for two reasons:

1) It really can be dangerous, and

2) They can get away with it because everyone knows cops don't lie.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 07:03PM

What possible basis would you have for saying that? It's not like you have decades of experience in the criminal justice system.

Well, okay. You have decades of experience in the criminal justice system. . .

But you are brown, so you are by definition part of the conspiracy. Good grief, you may even be a card-carrying subscriber to the New York Times (assuming they deliver to the barrio).

I'm glad I have managed to discredit you. Now I can go back to my usual life and my usual prejudices!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2019 04:26AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 08:35PM

I discredit myself when I look in the mirror!

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 10:51PM

There is a higher rate of white on white crime. Why are you keeping it a secret ?

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 12:39PM

>>below the radar, like the dozen or so young black men who will be shot dead in Chicago or Baltimore this weekend.

Most of the shootings in Baltimore are related to drugs or gangs. People do keep track of the numbers (any year over 300 gun-related deaths is a bad year,) but in a lot of ways do become numb to it unless innocent bystanders are involved (which unfortunately, they sometimes are.) Baltimore has a new police commissioner, so perhaps things will improve.

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Posted by: dumbmormons ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 12:17PM

you guys.
We know, through revelation from True Prophets of TheLard that White and Delightsome is the best.

Dark skin is a curse for being lazy and loathesome and so these evil types won't be enticing to White and Delightsome people.

It is right there in the Book of Mormon.

Just as real and true as Pres John Taylor saying Blacks are on earth so Satan will be represented.

Not sure why Chinese are here - other than maybe to give us restaurant choices when we go out for a meal?

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Posted by: nonmo_1 ( )
Date: November 09, 2019 12:19PM

"Not sure why Chinese are here - other than maybe to give us restaurant choices when we go out for a meal?"

and to build our railroads..

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 10, 2019 05:08PM

News reports are saying that approximately 100 members of the offshoot Mormon sect from La Mora and Colonial Le Baron, Mexico, have crossed the U.S. border at Douglas, Arizona. Most are heading to Phoenix, and some to Tucson. It looks like they intend to stay.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/american-families-fleeing-mexico-arrive-in-arizona-days-after-cartel-massacre/ar-BBWws9I?li=BBnb7Kz

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Posted by: Timpanogos ( )
Date: November 10, 2019 06:32PM

The problem here is native Mexicans attacking Gringos, not white policemen on blacks.

It is a common problem in Mexico. Some places are ruled by drug lords not the weak govt.

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