...hiding in their home from a virus they cannot see." seen on FB.

I don't know an atheist who says that, because it's ridiculous.

#1. We can see the Corona Virus with an electron microscope.
#2. We can't see gravity either, yet we all "believe" in it.
#3. Usually atheists don't believe in God for the same reasons they don't believe in Santa Claus, because it's a naive and childish notion and they have much better explanations for how the stockings got stuffed.

In the multiverse I am already God. It's boring. Sorry everyone.

Nicely done.

more of your strawman bullshit.

Q -- "We've all been the scarecrow"

This post is confusing to me.
In your first paragraph and in point 1 you appear to be defending atheists, but in 2 and 3 you are making a point against the atheist arguments.
So this doesn’t make any sense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2020 07:24AM by Third of Five.

Read it again, he is right on all 3 points (as far as how atheists think). I agree with the felone formerly known as Koriwhore, that is a ridiculous statement about atheists, on par with "there are no atheists in foxholes".

...Feline, not felone....stupid thumbs.

Third of Five Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This post is confusing to me.
> In your first paragraph and in point 1 you appear
> to be defending atheists, but in 2 and 3 you are
> making a point against the atheist arguments.
> So this doesn’t make any sense.

I'm making the same point in all 3, that it's a rediculous claim, that no atheist makes, because there are a lot of things we can't see that we still believe in, like gravity, dark matter. Dark Energy, the Higgs Boson (God Particle), the Great Attractor, the Singularity...the list goes on, and on.

Point 3 is that science has far better explanations than, "God did it."

You can't see the virus with the naked eye, but you know it infects people who are in close contact with each other.

You can't see gravity, but you can measure its effect. Sir Isaac Newton published the law ot universal gravitation in 1667 and Sir Henry Cavendish made the first measurement of the gravitational constant G in 1797.

Absence of information is not a replacement for cause and effect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2020 08:02AM by anybody.

@schrodingerscat:

I’m an atheist. Ok, I’ll give it shot to help you understand a couple of things, specially in the domain of science.

“...hiding in their home from a virus they cannot see." seen on FB.

I don't know an atheist who says that, because it's ridiculous.

#1. We can see the Corona Virus with an electron microscope.
#2. We can't see gravity either, yet we all "believe" in it.
#3. Usually atheists don't believe in God for the same reasons they don't believe in Santa Claus, because it's a naive and childish notion and they have much better explanations for how the stockings got stuffed.”

==It depends on what you mean by can’t see. If you are talking about your naked eyes, sure, I can’t see a virus, bacteria, atoms, molecules and plenty of other things smaller than 0.05 mm since the resolving power of our retina can’t go beyond that.
I also can’t see extremely far away objects. If I had a direct line of sight to you, I would not be able to see you.

Humans (scientists) have developed tools and methodology to detect things, they come together and discuss their experiment and they catalogue their experiment into the pages of science (They write a white paper, they publish it).

1. You can also take the blood of an infected person and inject it into another and see the results. This is how bacteria was first discovered in the 18xx. The microscopes of that era did not have the resolving power but the scientists were clever enough to figure out that something very small must be causing sickness.

2. I have seen this silly argument multiple times. Sometimes, it takes the form of you can’t see the wind.

The wind is just air which has been determined to be 79% N2, 19% O2 ~0.98% Ar and so on. It is just made of molecules that are in the gas phase and so, visible light does not interact with it much. In other words, the atmosphere is mostly transparent to light.
It is possible to experiment with air, it is possible to cool it to -185 °C and it will condense to a liquid. You can cool it further and probably below -200 °C it will solidify.

Visible light does not interact with gravity in a significant way but it has its effects on objects. Isaac Newton derived the equation for 2 bodies that attract each other in the 17xx.

3. I don’t know which god you are talking about. There have been thousands of gods from hundreds of cultures. Religions conflict with each others claims. They conflict with scientific discoveries. Once the evidence comes in, I will start believing and not a nanosecond before that.

~~~~iceman9090

I can see clearly God the rain has gone.

IMO it is irrational to not at least entertain the idea that there is a God.

IMO the probability of all this being an accident is less than the probability of there being a God, but that's not why I believe in the existence of a God.

What is God and what is the nature of God is another question.
If you have a Canary in a cage and you feed it and keep it safe and warm then who is God to the Canary?

IMO ones belief or not in God is the result of your lifetime of experiences. I have never been to South Africa but I believe it is there, because of my experiences in life. It is on maps, other people who have been there tell me it does exist, you hear about it on the news and so on.

When I look at the laws of physics, I see rationality, organisation, and a big picture plan, not something that just randomly occurred. If you argue that it existed forever, then surely that must raise questions.

In the end these are all just supportive arguments, when it is all boiled down, I believe in God because I "feel" Gods presence. It is easy to argue that this feeling is irrational, but it is true that it exists, in the same way you have feelings of love for your children. It's real but can't be easily explained.

Cheers

John

So feelings are evidence of facts? So people who feel differently than you do are you wrong? Your feelings are the ultimate standard of truth and trump all other feelings?

Convenient.

outin76 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMO the probability of all this being an accident
> is less than the probability of there being a God,
> but that's not why I believe in the existence of a
> God.

You are arguing from a flawed assertion here: You have no evidence that the probability of there being a God is higher than the probability that nearly infinite quantum "decisions" over billions of years could produce the complex universe that we observe (and ourselves to observe it). If you do, produce it.

@outin76:
"If you have a Canary in a cage and you feed it and keep it safe and warm then who is God to the Canary?"

==So, someone who takes care of another guy is a god?
So, a doctor that takes care of his patient is a god.
I am a god for my plants, my PC, my house, my cloths?

"What is God and what is the nature of God is another question."

==You would have to tell me.

"IMO ones belief or not in God is the result of your lifetime of experiences. I have never been to South Africa but I believe it is there, because of my experiences in life. It is on maps, other people who have been there tell me it does exist, you hear about it on the news and so on."

==Africa is a continent. A piece of land. There is not much reason to doubt the claim that Africa exists. On top of that, you can just buy a plane ticket at any time and go there. Africa is not playing hide and seek.

As for gods, there are thousands of gods from hundreds of culture and these religions all conflict with each other and sometimes conflict with facts.

"When I look at the laws of physics, I see rationality, organisation, and a big picture plan, not something that just randomly occurred. If you argue that it existed forever, then surely that must raise questions."

==The universe in which the gods exist in also would have laws of physics and the bodies of the gods also are made of stuff and obey those same laws.
If they don't exist anywhere, then they don't exist at all.

"feelings of love for your children. It's real but can't be easily explained."

==Feelings occurr in our brain and it is a device that can be analyzed and probably one day we can figure out which section holds your feelings of love for your children. It isn't something unreachable.

"IMO the probability of all this being an accident is less than the probability of there being a God, but that's not why I believe in the existence of a God."

==I'm not sure how you calculated that.

~~~~iceman9090

>>IMO it is irrational to not at least entertain the idea that there is a God.

There are hundreds if not thousands of Gods according to various cultures. So many to choose from! I'm partial to the ancient Roman gods who were strong characters and very entertaining. And then you have Ganesha, the Hindu god with an elephant head. Which god is your favorite, and why?

That's not what I said dogbloggernli.
I said my feelings are real and that is a fact. Doesn't make them true or even rational.
There are no facts that prove, or disprove the existence of god.
As I said, to be totally sure there is no God is irrational.

John

How do you 'feel' about people who say they enjoy believing ghawd does not exist?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do you 'feel' about people who say they enjoy
> believing ghawd does not exist?

You don't believe a word exists when that word is printed on every bill you spend or receive and in your country's Pledge of Allegiance?

Do you believe money exists?
Or your country?

He didn't say the word does not exist.

God obviously exists in the minds of those who believe in God.
And it depends upon how you define the word, God.
If you define it the way Sagan defined it, as the laws that govern nature, then that surely exists.

“The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard, who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by 'God,' one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God.”
Carl Sagan

Someday you're going to think for yourself and use your own words and the rest of us will be stunned.

But I think most of are waiting sitting down.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Someday you're going to think for yourself and use
> your own words and the rest of us will be
> stunned.
>
> But I think most of are waiting sitting down.

What now we're not allowed to quote other famous scientists in this forum?

You have a knack for drawing disassociated conclusions. It must be all the practice.

At least it's the same authors, over and over and over... No wild hairs! In a way, it's soothing, comforting. You can be relied on, which is what most of us look for. Lord knows I never leave my well-worn path.

Irrelevant.

You said EOD doesn't think the word "God" exists. I pointed out that that was incorrect.

You respond by saying that people believe in God believe in God. Perhaps you are defending the point you should have made?

And the point if this thread is?

Lethbridge Reprobate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And the point if this thread is?

See the OP.

Oh ghawd of our fathers, if it were only that easy!!

I feel your pain, Ron.

I see gravity every time I drop an ice cube on my big toe. It looks like stars.

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I see gravity every time I drop an ice cube on my
> big toe. It looks like stars.

You see the effects of gravity, but nobody has ever seen a "graviton", the theoretical particle that makes up gravity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2020 05:51PM by schrodingerscat.

I didn't see the car that hit me, either. It's not theoretical. Plus, there is no gravitron. It was a marker, and still is, nothing more. Gravity is not understood. It is felt (ouch, I fell), it is seen (star position shift during solar eclipses due to gravitational lensing), and it is used for millions of tasks, i.e. hydroelectricty.

Mass bends space and deflects light.
The 1919 eclipse proved Einstein right.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddington_experiment
https://youtu.be/qgc9bDH4b-0


Orchestral Manoeuvers In The Dark
Gravity Never Failed
https://youtu.be/rRzMf3FiYuo

"What does God need with a starship?"
https://youtu.be/r4HjR5xW7FU

I have seen that as well, it makes my head hurt from my eyes rolling so hard. Our disbelief in god is not simply because we can't see him. And yes, dummy, we can see the virus. Like he said there are these things called microscopes...

@Aaron:
"Like he said there are these things called microscopes..."

==Yes and here is the link to the particular types of microscopes used to image thing the side of 100 pm or nm or um. Starting at the level of um, you can use optical microscopes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_electron_microscope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_transmission_electron_microscopy

There is about 7 types of these electron microscopes.
One of the recent ones is the atomic force microscope. I think it was developed by IBM and was used to image to image the electron orbitals of the hydrogen atom.

I am not getting your point, will you clarify?