Subtitled: "Tell Me What I Want to Hear--Because It Makes Me Feel Good."



Read up on Phyllis Schlafly this weekend cuz ERA. Never used to pay attention to the mechanics of politics much til the last few years. Basically it was Schlafly and her campaign that defeated the ERA. Women defeated the ERA basically.

So, like a recent thread where we discussed Mormon women as their own worst enemy (my opinion) was fascinated to find out the above. Good ole Phylis. Up against Steinem, Chizholm, Rucklehaus, Abzug, and Friedan. And Phyllis won.

Mormon women not Mormon men are keeping Mormon women in check. You can blame the patriarchy all you want, and that may have something to do with the root cause, but it ain't the whole story Margie. Misogynistic women. It's a thing

Another one: All my life I have had to watch homophobic homosexuals work against their own kind as well. One minute they are preaching against "the gays" from the pulpit or leading the charge in Congress against "the gays" and the next thing they are caught in the motel room with a young male hooker.

Why? Whywhywhy why oh why?

BIBLE

Women who had been working, in a traditional way, in the home, suddeenly felt judged and marginalized by the ERA. Mormon women took great pride in their Mormon way of life--well not all. My Mom wasn't liking it that much. She wanted a career. But that wasn't done back then. Mormon sisters could feel glory and even arrogance at doing what the good Lord wanted women to be. Praiseworthy. A smug reason to be on the pedestal made of ether erected for them.

Then ERA. These women felt that they had been told by the feminists that they were less than. They had heard that they were less than all their life from the Bible and the pulpit although in disguised terms, glowing terms. Being primed by the bible and the pulpit to accept their lower status as "help meets." They could take it from the men, the priesthood holders. However, having other women make them feel less than--which was never the agenda of the feminists by and large--was too damaging. That was another story all together. These women were primed for Phyllis--who never stayed home hardly at all by the way, as she championed her cause.



The war was on. But the war was not about the right for women to be whatever they wanted. The war was about rights vs "feelings." Suddenly some were insecure about staying home when that is what they wanted while others were being shamed for not baking their own cupcakes as they pursued different dreams. Or for Mormons, making their own Jello and funeral potatoes and serving up plenty of orange drinks and bringing Cheerios to sacrament meeting.

Instead of accepting diversity and the power that could come with equality, people, men, women, want to be told that what they already want is the right thing to want. Otherwise they have to stretch and grow. Question. Consider. Open up.






I am not Dem, Rep, or Indy. This is not political. This is a comparison of what both religion and politics have become---together. We tried to keep them separate, but no question about it---at the very least, they are dating steadily and its a three-way with the Bible. Opinions are formed from pulpit. Self worth is being determined by an old tome with a questionable provenance and even more questionable translations that have always been subject translators own agendas.

So. Easter Sunday. People went to church and had an orgy with the Corona virus perhaps. Humans being inhuman?




Religion. Politics. What is the difference?

Burn your bra. Burn your Bible. Burn your Book of Mormon. Burn your veil. This isn't about just women. This is about humans.

Burn with yearning for fact, for knowledge.



Dedicated to my mother who told me as a teen that a woman could never be president because "they just don't think like men." The truth is, she was wrong. Women can be every bit as awful as men. :)

Wow! So true, it's so often women against women. Especially in religion.

Yes they can. My mother being one of them. Not a good person. She was every bit as brutal as my father.

Wait, are you trying to tell me that girls *aren't* made of sugar and spice and everything nice?

Sugar and spice and everything nice = diabetes.

I think most women hate that description.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2020 10:55AM by kathleen.

I have more male friends than I do female friends. Gay men are safe friends! I have a lot of them.

I always got along better with my brothers. I'm not what you call a girly girl and my sisters are. I was the middle sister. Oh my! We still argue. We are 64, 62, and 58. I'm not speaking to the 58 year old and barely speaking to the 64 year old, and most people in my life ask me why I ever have anything to do with them at all.

My youngest brother, who is 51, is my closest sibling and we are very close. I was more like a mother to him as our 54 year old brother had many problems like having a stroke when he was born and it goes on and on. I liked taking care of babies THEN. I took care of the 3 younger than me and they still look at me more as a mom, but I always get along with my 3 brothers. I always tell my youngest brother he was my saving grace in the family. He is the one person in the world I trust 100%.

I don't do well with women. Not at all. Mormon women are vicious.

I was actually afraid of men growing up. Then I went to work at Thiokol and my boss introduced me to about 25 men the first day. I almost quit that week, but by the end of the week, i was happier than I think I've ever been. There were good and bad there, too.

Mormonism is an equal opportunity abusive organization, just like many things in life. I was not ever happy as a mormon. My "husband" told my daughter that, as I've said. I wasn't. I never did well around most of them.

I too have found out in the last year especially, that gay males are very safe friends for me. Not counting my father who is still in the religion pretending not to be gay. He took out the his self-hate of being gay in a religion that hated gays on me and that was not cool. But other than my father i have found gay males or beta males to be very safe friends for me to be around. The alpha males that hunt helpless animals for sport and drive lifted trucks in the mud can go screw themselves but my viewpoint may change.

There are gays who like hunting and drive big trucks and play violent sports, etc.

Gays aren't a uniform population, any more than straight men, bisexuals, etc.

Tyson

Thanks. The point of my thread is how every sub-group can turn on each other, be each other's worst enemy or thorn in the side.

No everyone is like the first female hyena to be born which tries to kill the rest of the females in the litter. I guess that may be necessary since they don't have ugly words to use instead on each other.

All women aren't alike, nor are all gays or straights nor even the Quakers on the moon. I'm sure the ten foot tall ones treated the eight foot tall ones very badly. But only Brigham knew for sure.



The more we see our individuality and empathize, or at least sympathize, with each other, the more the differences bring us together even more than the ways we are alike. Sez I, anyway.

Difference brings progress I dare say. Sameness seems to bring self-congratulations. No? Generally? Something there?

I enjoyed reading that very much. Well said, D&D (as usual).


>Dedicated to my mother who told me as a teen that a woman could never be president because "they just don't think like men."

Or maybe that is *why* they *can* be president! lol


But yeah. Vicious is a word that can be fairly applied to some women, unfortunately. I didn't make friends with a single Mormon woman during my three years in (other than the mo work-friend's wife who I became friendly with *before* they started the conversion efforts, that worked for a little while). Surely that is somewhat strange. I got the impression that perhaps it wasn't because as a group they were nasty people but more that they were so burdened by all the requirements of their religion they were afraid to put themselves in a position where they may have to do even more, like taking on responsibility for yet something else or facing more demands from yet another person.

Friendship, after all, takes time, at least, and effort on some fronts, and then there's the unknown emotional and even potential physical toll of getting involved in somebody else's life. Of course, in the middle of being a newly baptized (in a traumatic way) convert, I may have been seen as yet another issue they didn't have time to deal with. The "friend" who had invited me for supper weekly to have the "discussions" with the missionaries stated after the last one, "Now I've done my job". Job? I thought we were friends having dinner, wanting to spend time with each other. I thought she was just taking an opportunity to provide a meal for the missionaries. (Yes, I was a dope - slow to comprehend the set-up). And it's not like I didn't reciprocate, helping in her household with the meal prep, housework, her four children, and other specialized tasks (I don't want to mention all the specifics here. But included were multiple entire weekends when I looked after the children while the parents were out of town, including a time when I had to deal with their son who was expressing suicidal thoughts).

Nasty women aren't limited to Mormonism, as you say, D&D. I have unfortunately run into my share of vicious women in non-mo churches. On two occasions the negative experiences very nearly shattered me. I can see my younger self as earnest, curious, well-meaning, trusting, and at times they broke me. The female members of one church alone perpetrated three separate major outrages against me. But they were the nice church ladies and I was the strange interloper. Unfortunately for me, I used to always try to work things out rather than just walk away, ending up hurting myself even more. Finally I realized it's OK to walk. It doesn't indicate anything negative about you; rather, it's a good self-defence/survival technique.

They did me one huge favour - their actions and attitudes guaranteed I wouldn't join their church (which I had thought was mainstream but in retrospect, as I learned more, was still on the fundamentalist scale). For some reason, I was generally attracted to the more fundy-style churches yet I was always the odd one out - not able to embrace the closed nature of the beliefs, attitudes and actions. Finally I got that about myself and quit hurting myself by getting involved with such groups.

So, for sure, women hurting women. It's a thing. Not confined to Mormonism, of course, but out there in the wide, wide world. It's most unfortunate. Because together, stronger, 'n all that.

You and Cl2 really summed it up!

Women can't compete (not often, anyway) in arm wrestling, and for so long had limited employment opportunities to "rise to the top."

The only way for women to compete is to outdo each other in pure righteousness, and they wear the prize belt for every one to see them strut around the ring.

You both would have liked my mom. She refused to let other women be treated or talked about badly. I took her to a RS function once and she thought the whole thing was a damned disgrace. I resigned on her birthday.

"Now I've done my job!"

I guess, Nightingale, they figured they "had you" and no reason to pretend anymore. You should be grateful for their tactics, right? Cuz they saved you.

Prime example of the womenfolk doing the church's bidding and willing to be phony as hell to accomplish that. Anything for their Lord Gods--- Nelson, Monson, Hinckley et al.



And, "stronger together?" Especially if the enemy is yourselves?

Makes me wonder if as far as Schlafly vs the Feminists, was it a case of the battle being more important than the victory for either side? The conversation took center stage. That may be the slow juicy victory that was really needed. That had value.

The Mormon Gerontocracy doesn't even let the conversation get started. Even Sister Judas Nanny Goat who spoke at conference was there to quell not elucidate. Anything they can do to stop any conversation that does not fit their agenda is the goal.

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Now I've done my job!"
>
> I guess, Nightingale, they figured they "had you"
> and no reason to pretend anymore. You should be
> grateful for their tactics, right? Cuz they saved
> you.

Thank you, D&D, for reminding me of this. Perhaps if they'd been genuine and "friendship" meant true friendship to them I would still be Mormon! Yes, I am grateful, but not in the way they expected.

I'd never experienced before not being able to make friends with any of the members. I could stand in their stake centre, amongst a large group of people whose names and families I knew, and feel utterly lonely. Not due to having no Mormon friends there but because it was all phony. Another convert and I would often whisper to each other during SM "The Emperor has no clothes" and we'd chuckle quietly but it was uncomfortable and sad not funny or happy.

I was slow to catch on that the entire enterprise of inviting me over for meals and pretending friendship was nothing but an exercise in proselytizing. You'd think I'd have learned the first time 'round (with the JWs). But it took twice for me to comprehend that people can be fake with a straight face and subscribe to the religious conviction that "lying for the Lord" is a positive approach to living out their faith. Not just Mormons, of course, but they excelled at it. If I think about it now, years later, I still can't believe that a "friend" would just stop phoning or issuing invites because you don't attend their church any more.


> Prime example of the womenfolk doing the church's
> bidding and willing to be phony as hell to
> accomplish that.

This was my experience in Mormondom, yes.

As I say, it was bewildering and hurtful at the time but I am SO HAPPY to be out of it (major understatement). The memory of my joy the moment I knew I was leaving is still supremely satisfying. As I've detailed here before, it occurred immediately following a meeting I had with a church psychologist (sent by the bishop) to discuss *my* difficulties settling into the Mormon Church following my disaster of a baptism (not *their* shortcomings and bumblings). I had had many ultra-negative mo-related experiences and was very unhappy trying to honour my baptism commitments, feeling like I was trapped as I had made promises (even though I hadn't understood them at the time) nor did I realize ahead of time how appallingly boring Mormonism is. I often asked myself how many more times I could sit through SM where nothing different, interesting or enlightening ever occurred.

I found the psychologist to be a most unfriendly (hostile even) and unhelpful, impatient man. After enduring an uncomfortable 40 minutes with him (for which I paid him $60.00) while he ate his supper, he assessed my plight in a sharp tone, saying "We're not working from a position of strength here". If that's their idea of counselling and assisting people, God help them all.

I passed by the LDS building the other day where I had consulted the psychologist, following which I had made the instantaneous decision to leave the church. Easy solution to the "depression" I had been feeling. I saw the big "Welcome" sign outside and the pretty spring flowers in the front garden.

I saw the grass I had walked across to freedom.

I smiled.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2020 02:21PM by Nightingale.

I think mormon women really are something else. I have only a few mormon friends left, and only one is a woman.
My SIL has a phd from one of the top universities in the world and has never worked a day in her life. Most people in the world admire women who work and stand independently. I was a single mormon working mother and it got me zero respect. It was such a surprise though when I finally had a permanent job and got to know people who were non mormons; they valued and thought well of me, and even more so because I was a single mother. I had been having doubts for a few months by that point and I really noticed the huge difference; how well I was treated outside of mormonism.

But it is true about women. The first non mormon church I attended was pretty much the same thing with women. I couldn’t get out of there fast enough.
I’ve had my share of nasty or jealous encounters with women throughout my life. But nothing compares to those I encountered in the mormon corporation. One woman my age who was my daughters YW President used to do a lot of “nice” stuff for her as part of her calling, yet she scowled at me when I smiled, and she seemed to hate me; she wouldn’t even look at me when I spoke to her. I could write an essay on all the awful experiences in mormonism and most of them are about the women.

I think this is why I have never missed going to the mormon church since I left. My brother likes to say it was the unfortunate experiences of my particular ward. No - it wasn’t. I’d been to plenty of other wards and events in the country and I also visited Utah twice, and that was worse. One girl at BYU laughed in my face at my accent. The other women were some of the worst people I’d met in my entire life. If I had to live around these people now I’d lose the will to live. Mormons are not normal. The mormon women are the most nasty, jealous and pious people I’ve ever known. I think most of them don’t want equal rights; they are more than happy playing the parts already given to them. And why wouldn’t they want to stay at home all day? It gives them plenty of time to overthink, gossip, and revel in their own wonderful-ness.

Mormon women are the enforcers.

Phyllis Schlafly wrote an anti-rock column in 1978 that inflated a 3rd rate white dance orchestra leader, Jack Staulcup, into a mover-and-shaker powerhouse in the recording industry (he had four 78 singles between 1947-1953, uncharted all, then only vanity press albums in the early '60s Style was close to Guy Lombardo, dates back to 1929. Staulcup was anti-Beatles). Her mention of him came plainly from David A. Noebel's sources for his MARXIST MINISTRELS, A HANDBOOK ON COMMUNIST SUBVERSION OF MUSIC 1974 book. Tipper Gore's PMRC sources got hijacked by fundies in Texas and behind The Orange Curtain.

Schlafly also recorded pro-nuke war speeches on Key Records, which was an off-the-wall right wing record label.

Women couldn't apply for credit without their husband's permission, have a bank account, or hold a job if they got pregnant --they'd be fired-- before the '60s and early '70s.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2020 01:53AM by snagglepuss.

I can remember Anita Bryant's pray the gay away campaign from Florida. Ever since, the state has been kind of batshit.

Florida was where the police and morals folks went after Jim Morrison for purportedly, well, showing off, c. 1970. Anita Bryant and other middle-of-the-road recording acts organized RALLYS FOR DECENCY concerts, cherry-picking the youth audiences, and then awarded themselves medals from the Valley Forge Foundation. Some of those concerts broke out into riots.
The morals cops used Tipper Stickers to go after 2 Live Crew and generally harass record shops in Florida.

I think Anita Bryant got gaslighted by a fundy preacher to do the gay protests, probably pitching the publicity to revive her dormant recording career. She got dropped at Columbia Records in 1968 and her concerts all had the same set lists and costume changes for at least ten years, tickets at $5 a head and usually about 2500 people in the audience. She was age 37 when she had the "comeback," but the blowback was so intense she had to cancel concerts and no country label would bite at her country single, "There's Nothing Like the Love Between a Woman and a Man," when she shopped it to labels in Nashville a year later.

I’m an atheist, never mo.
I have spoken to a lot of christians through the weeb.

I do remember one particular case where I have spoken to a lady about the misogyny in the bible. I listed all the lines I could extract from the Bible. Forget it, she would not accept it.
I have spoken about the misogyny and how the bible condones slavery. A christian will never accept it. In their mind, misogyny is normal and the bible does not condone slavery.
They think that slavery is a business deal: one guy owes something to another guy so he offers to work for them since he does not have cash.

Forget about it.
This isn’t like science. If I am wrong about some scientific thing, and I am corrected, I accept it right away and say thank you.
Religion is a whole different world. A world of thick headedness.

~~~~iceman9090

Yes. Religion IS a whole different world. Reason need not apply for a job there, either. Religion has given critical thinking an extended sabbatical, as well. Longest sabbatical in history as a matter of fact.

Most religious are not just "set in their ways," but set in the ways of the Bible. Every ugly action is justified by cherry picking the Bible and finding just he right verse to assuage their "faux guilt."


The slavery of the Bible you mention. Just another one. Most of the slave owners in the south went to church on Sunday. Listened to sermons no doubt about how the Israelites were enslaved by the Egyptians. God was so angry about the servitude of his chosen people he caused plagues and eventually parted a sea after a pre-show with Moses doing parlor tricks with snakes and staffs. The slave owners would be horrified by these scriptures and then go home and make a deal to trade a Mother's child or husband to another plantation.

The Bible promotes people against people. There is too much Old Testament in the world today. Still dominates.

@Done & Done:
I presume the slavery of africans was supported with these lines.
The white people presumed that they were descended from Shem. They presumed that africans are descended from Ham/Canaan.
The interesting thing is that Ham saw Noah naked and yet, it is Canaan that is punished.
Ancient caveman logic!
Also, I have read in an anthropology book that when europeans encountered native americans, they were confused. If Shem is the father of white, Japheth the father of asians, Ham the father of africans. Where did these native americans come from? They physically don't fit into any of the 3 categories. Did Noah have a 4th son?

Genesis 9:18 KING JAMES VERSION
And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan. {9:19} These [are] the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread. {9:20} And Noah began [to be] an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: {9:21} And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. {9:22} And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. {9:23} And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid [it] upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces [were] backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness. {9:24} And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. {9:25} And he said, Cursed [be] Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. {9:26} And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. {9:27} God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

~~~~iceman9090

Well, that scripture makes perfect sense--just like the rest of the Bible. ;)

If I put on my apologist hat, I would say the fourth child was a daughter and thus could not be acknowledged and she was the Mother of the Native Americans. Why not? Works as well as the rest. No?

Navajos and some other tribes are matriarchal.

Of course, it's all gobbledegook but it feeds on our emotions. And, as I have noted before, emotions are stronger than factual information when it comes to getting humans to do just about anything.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2020 12:33PM by blindguy.

I couldn't agree more. At the top I said, "The war was about rights vs "feelings."

The real war as you say is Facts vs Feelings. Always will be I suspect.

There are a lot of things I could say about this topic (my response to one of your responses is above this one).

Perhaps the most ironic thing (per a story on NPR's "On the Media" that appeared two weeks ago) is that we now know that there was a lot more equality between primitive men and primitive women than most people realize. The so-called "distinctions" between the two sexes and their roles would not occur until after primitive wanderers settled down and became farmers and built societies.

Put another way, what Phyllis Schlafly sought (and what many of her followers today still seek) is for a return to tribalism where women were considered only as property (chattel). But that role for women did not exist until after humans began developing their civilized societies.

You remind me of the ugly of ugliest toxic iconic Mormon parable from my youth: The Eight Cow Wife. One of the most degrading to Mormon women stories ever fabricated meant to pit women's worth (value to men) against each other.

The parable was racist, colonialist, and sexist. But I remember everyone loving it, telling the story in Sunday School. It did nothing but reinforce the notion that Mormon women are indeed subject to and at the whim of the Priesthood holders.

So did the parable push Mormon women to focus on their own worth? That worth being how accomplished they were at cooking, cleaning, raising as many children as possible with no thought to what may be vital to their own fulfillment? Like owning themselves. Help meets one and all. With pedestal or without.


The focus of the parable is that the women are dependent on the men to give them value. !!!!!!!




But the kicker? The story was written and produced by, you guessed it, WOMEN!


And nothing has changed.

Actually, some of my friends and I always joked about it and how many cows we were worth--all in a negative way.

I found this extremely funny. My daughter posted a picture from Fairbanks of it snowing AGAIN and she put on the picture, "Alaska, you ugly."

My problem was that once I got married, I thought I had to be the perfect little mormon wife and I hated it. I went looking for a job behind his back (good that I did). I refuse to ever marry again as I fall into a pattern. I have had to work hard not to fall into a pattern with my boyfriend. It is easy for me to always be a people pleaser and I've had to force myself not to allow myself to "disappear" again. I'd rather be alone than ever do that again.

Whoever thought this old boyfriend of mine and current boyfriend would be fine with me living in the same house as my "husband." I've tried living with the boyfriend and it doesn't work. Like my therapist says, "If it works, why change it." It has worked for a while.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2020 02:03PM by cl2.