In the now closed thread xxMo0 provided data suggesting that white people are shot by police more frequently than black people. To substantiate that proposition, he offered these data:

> People shot by police in 2019: 1003
> White victims: 405
> Black victims: 250

I responded that those data prove my point: on a per capita basis black people are shot three times as often as whites.

xxMo0 replied that "if we're going to get into the per capita vs. raw numbers distinction (which is important) than we can look at some different situations," which he then lists.

To which I answer, the topic we are discussing is the racial bias in how police interact with white people versus black people. "Some different situations" are irrelevant.

The bottom line is that your data, adjusted to render them per capita, prove that blacks are disproportionately mistreated by the authorities. That remains the case despite the presence of various bright shiny objects.

As much as I generally agree with your position on this issue, xxMoO raised a point that it appears you are not giving the logical force it deserves. He states:

"If you go to the link at Quillette it goes into more detail about the discrepancies which are more tied to poverty in neighborhoods resulting in more police calls to those neighborhoods, among other factors."

If it is a fact that in general the police are more engaged with economically depressed black communities (or economically depressed white communities for that matter) than the middle-class suburban predominantly white communities in their jurisdictions, this differential will statistically result in more black arrests and deaths--regardless of racism. To put the point starkly, the statistical disparities you point out arguably might not involve racism at all, or minimally, but just be a matter of such underlying social factors that naturally generate police involvement. In any event, this point undermines the significance of your numbers considerably.

That said, we need to ask (at least) two additional questions: (1) To what extent does the existence of these depressed black communities depend upon an underlying racism that perpetuates them; and (2) How does the existence of such communities, and in particular the predominant attention they get from law enforcement, affect the racial attitudes of police officers that serve these communities. (As well as the public generally)

I suspect that at the end of the day, racism remains a significant component of the disparate treatment by police officers across the board in law enforcement. If you are a police officer that constantly or predominantly is engaged with problems in the black community--or you observe departmentally that such problems predominantly exist in the black community--you undoubtedly begin to assume a stereotypical racist attitude about blacks in general; often without realizing it, and without considering the more subtle social dynamics that explain why black communities are in general more vulnerable to problems, than white communities.

So, to you post, "Some different situations" certainly *are* relevant. But, you are right: Social factors alone do not excuse the data you provide. Rather they perhaps explain to some extent the underlying racism that such factors generate.

The topic we were discussing was police violence broken down by race. xxMo0 claimed that white people are victimized by cops more than black people which as I demonstrated, is demonstrably false.

His reply was to throw dirt in the air--lots of disparate figures with no explanation of any relevance--in order to detract from the facts about police violence. If there was a connection, it was the insinuation that black people are more violent, more criminal than whites and hence deserved higher rates of incarceration and would inevitably get beaten and killed more by law enforcement. But for some reason xxMo0 was unwilling to spell that out let alone defend it. So I noted that his data were irrelevant to the point we were discussing.

What you have done here is explicitly state xxMo0's assumption and then go on to raise the consecutive question: why would black people be arrested and convicted of crimes more often? Why is there more violence in the neighborhoods where African Americans (and other groups) live? In short, is there systemic racism that produces phenomena that result in different behavior in some communities which, in turn, leads to more problems with law enforcement?

Those are important questions posed well. The answers are not clear; they are not easy. But yes, you have provided the analytical framework that renders some of xxMo0's data relevant to a broad discussion of race and police violence. That is far more than he did.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2020 03:38PM by Lot's Wife.

I think Jaime raises some good points. Racism and poverty seem to function as a loop in the black community. I think that in many cases, a mutual mistrust has developed between LEOs and the black community. I don't have the answer to that, and I wish I did. I think that moving forward, police officers will need lots and lots of bias and cultural training, and there will likely need to be other solutions as well.

I've seen it for many years from the point of view of an urban educator. I've seen a *lot* of social problems and dysfunction due to generational poverty. School can be the ticket out for many, but it's a long, slow climb with many obstacles to overcome.

Lots of good points in what you write, too. It will take major intervention to change some of the negative dynamics, conspicuously including community-cop relations. My biggest worry is that when the protests and awareness dissipate, as they inevitably will, and the long grinding process of legislating and implementing reforms begins, the public will no longer be paying attention and keeping up the pressure.

There would be nothing more tragic than for this eruption of public concern to lose momentum and the crisis be wasted.

I understand per capita very well. It is a critical factor in understanding the real extent and severity of black-on-white violence in general.

When I take a night walk to the convenience store in my barrio I have more to worry about from the local inhabitants than I do from the cops, and I've had my share of cop encounters in my days. I mostly didn't act like an idiot and (obviously) survived, though I almost didn't survive a few encounters with vibrant locals intent on culturally enriching my head.

So if we're going to get all Karen-y about strictly staying on thread topic I could post threads about black on white violence but I think the point has already been made in the previous thread.

As I indicated elsewhere I miss the days when the forum was about Mormonism.

I'm confident you do know per capita methodology. But that just raises the question why you would present absolute numbers as if they were dispositive rather than doing the per capital calculation to present a true picture.

There are worse things than ignorance.

If you can't see the connections between Mormonism, racism and Blacks getting shot you ain't lookin.

IMO protests have their uses, but being a practical person, I'm a lot more interested in reform. I like that there is starting to be discussion about national standards for policing. It could be that police need a much longer and more thorough training and mentoring process, maybe about two years total, or the equivalent of a community college associate's degree.

I also think that there are things as a society that we could do to help police officers such as banning semi-automatic machine guns. I see it as being a two-way street.

I saw an incredible first-responder response in my peaceful community today -- paramedics, fire, and police. My neighbors and I were outside, gawking. It was for a woman having a heart attack. They were trying to save her. We have to remember that the police and other first responders do many wonderful, lifesaving things every day as well. It's in our collective best interest to enable them to do an exemplary job for all of our community members.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2020 07:40PM by summer.

Ahh yes. The old "let's send Ben Franklin to petition Parliament to be nicer to us" approach.

Let's not go crazy and start throwing tea into the harbor.

> I also think that there are things as a society
> that we could do to help police officers such as
> banning semi-automatic machine guns. I see it as
> being a two-way street.

Guns of all sorts. It would help lower the tension when police interact with the populace, and if cops felt safer they would be less reactive.

It's a pity that won't happen in the US.

Well yes, but that would be asking for too much. Baby steps, right?

> I also think that there are
> things as a society that we
> could do to help police
> officers such as banning semi-
> automatic machine guns.

Single shot machine guns are not the wave of the future!

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I responded that those data prove my point: on a
> per capita basis black people are shot three times
> as often as whites.
===============================

LW, you would be surprised how many good folks simply do not get the "per capita" concept.

Not a bust (we are all fellow escapees here); just a human fact.

https://innerchildfun.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/volumeexperiment.jpg

Obviously, the one on the left ;-)

> LW, you would be surprised how many good folks
> simply do not get the "per capita" concept.
>
> Not a bust (we are all fellow escapees here); just
> a human fact.

Agreed.

And it really isn't a bust!
Largely erudite concept useless for daily life (unless you happen to be in public health working out disease attack rates or something). Can live a perfectly "successful" life knowing nothing of it. A few politicians, for example?

Yes, one can live without understanding per capita calculations. But that inability generally indicates an incapacity for dealing with other sorts of elementary stats, math, and logic. I daresay the world would be a better and less gullible place if people were educated enough to comprehend, and routinely apply, such basic forms of rigorous thinking.

“Polar bears used to be brown, but through evolution they turned white, because police were shooting them.”

--Mark Normand
(from a YouTube video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDolNU89SXI)

That's just folklore.

The true explanation is that some of those Lamanite Bears accepted the gospel and, through faith, obedience, and full tithes, became pure and delightsome.

I like to refer to them as "The Lost Ten Tribes Bears."

Well, at least some of them live near Brigham's polar ice caps!

They are the guardians of the tribe's hole until it opens up for its holy occupants.