Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Well, we know Mormons won't ever do this...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/27/uk/justin-welby-jesus-scli-intl-gbr/index.html
Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury and head of the Church of England, has said the church should reconsider its portrayal of Jesus as a White man.
Speaking to the BBC Today Programme, Welby was asked whether the way the western church "portrays Jesus" needed to be "thought about again" and "re-imagined" in light of recent Black Lives Matter protests following the death of George Floyd.
"Yes, of course it does," he said, adding that Jesus was portrayed differently in countries around the world. He was regularly in touch with Anglican Church leaders from around the world, he said, who did not portray Jesus as White.
"You go into their churches and you don't see a White Jesus -- you see a Black Jesus, or Chinese Jesus, or a Middle Eastern Jesus -- which is of course the most accurate.
"You see a Fijian Jesus -- you see Jesus portrayed in as many ways as there are cultures, languages and understandings."
Welby added that the representations of Jesus were not, however, "who we worship" but rather served as a "reminder of the universality of the God who became fully human."
Addressing calls for monuments with links to the UK's imperialist history and slave trade to be removed, he said statues in Canterbury Cathedral would be put under review.
"We're going to be looking very carefully, and putting them in context and seeing if they all should be there," he said.
"The question [about whether they should all be there] arises, of course it does, and we've seen that all over the world."
The movement to take down and deface controversial statues has gained traction in the UK, as well as Europe and the US but has divided public opinion -- with critics slamming it as "mob rule" while others applaud it as a way of addressing "systematic racism."
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/27/uk/justin-welby-jesus-scli-intl-gbr/index.html
Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury and head of the Church of England, has said the church should reconsider its portrayal of Jesus as a White man.
Speaking to the BBC Today Programme, Welby was asked whether the way the western church "portrays Jesus" needed to be "thought about again" and "re-imagined" in light of recent Black Lives Matter protests following the death of George Floyd.
"Yes, of course it does," he said, adding that Jesus was portrayed differently in countries around the world. He was regularly in touch with Anglican Church leaders from around the world, he said, who did not portray Jesus as White.
"You go into their churches and you don't see a White Jesus -- you see a Black Jesus, or Chinese Jesus, or a Middle Eastern Jesus -- which is of course the most accurate.
"You see a Fijian Jesus -- you see Jesus portrayed in as many ways as there are cultures, languages and understandings."
Welby added that the representations of Jesus were not, however, "who we worship" but rather served as a "reminder of the universality of the God who became fully human."
Addressing calls for monuments with links to the UK's imperialist history and slave trade to be removed, he said statues in Canterbury Cathedral would be put under review.
"We're going to be looking very carefully, and putting them in context and seeing if they all should be there," he said.
"The question [about whether they should all be there] arises, of course it does, and we've seen that all over the world."
The movement to take down and deface controversial statues has gained traction in the UK, as well as Europe and the US but has divided public opinion -- with critics slamming it as "mob rule" while others applaud it as a way of addressing "systematic racism."
It's the morally and historically right thing to do. It also indicates, however, that the CoE is little more than a social club. Religions that have strongly committed believers would face an overwhelming backlash and hence be much slower and more cautious before announcing such a possibility.
It's easier to make big changes if no one really cares.
It's easier to make big changes if no one really cares.
anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury and
> head of the Church of England, has said the church
> should reconsider its portrayal of Jesus as a
> White man.
Wow. There is a god! :)
> ...you see Jesus portrayed
> in as many ways as there are cultures, languages
> and understandings."
I'm all for being culturally sensitive and appropriate. It's a good thing people are expressing their points of view and more are listening and getting it at last.
But. Does that mean White Jesus can't be a thing? Equal opportunity iow.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2020 04:09PM by Nightingale.
-------------------------------------------------------
> Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury and
> head of the Church of England, has said the church
> should reconsider its portrayal of Jesus as a
> White man.
Wow. There is a god! :)
> ...you see Jesus portrayed
> in as many ways as there are cultures, languages
> and understandings."
I'm all for being culturally sensitive and appropriate. It's a good thing people are expressing their points of view and more are listening and getting it at last.
But. Does that mean White Jesus can't be a thing? Equal opportunity iow.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2020 04:09PM by Nightingale.
Believers see Jesus in the form they identify with be it white, black or any other ethnicity. European artists portray him as white, African artists as black, and so on, and whatever color he has been presented in has not been an impediment to the Gospel message for two thousand years. Just another reason why Welby and the CofE are essentially irrelevant to most Brits.
A former Archbishop of Canterbury, Judic West, would often regale dinner guests with his impression of 26 to 29 year old Jesus of Nazareth working nights and weekends as a member of a mariachi band.
He would repeatedly yell, "Órale, pendejos!!" and "Arriba y arriba!!" as he stood strumming the maid's feather duster...
He was rotunds of fun!!
He would repeatedly yell, "Órale, pendejos!!" and "Arriba y arriba!!" as he stood strumming the maid's feather duster...
He was rotunds of fun!!
Judic sure gets around. Everybody knows his name, plus he's got
a great reputation as a talented feather duster strummer.
a great reputation as a talented feather duster strummer.
Admit it! You've got the hots for him, don't you?
Can you translate any of that into English?!
elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Admit it! You've got the hots for him, don't you?
ok ok, it's true. I can't get away with anything with you around,
-------------------------------------------------------
> Admit it! You've got the hots for him, don't you?
ok ok, it's true. I can't get away with anything with you around,
Well, crap! "The" church just came out with their "new logo Jesus". Now what?
I think the Church of England is putting the final touches on its new logo of a grinning Henry VIII holding a big greasy turkey leg and giving thumbs up.
But will he be showing a nipple?
Bloody hell, this soddin' ****** (bad word in the UK, ultra-super-bad word in the US) is daft.
Seriously though, "Middle Eastern" Jesus (to use Mr. Welby's phrase) covers a very wide latitude (no pun intended) and the appearance of a "Middle Easterner" can run the spectrum from nearly as white as, say, a Portuguese or Greek, to much more "Nubian."
This is taking the term in the Old Testament sense, similar to Kushites, an empire just south of Egypt that butted heads with Egypt from time to time over the centuries.
Beyond this little point (the wide spectrum inherent in "Middle Eastern"), it is only natural for people to portray their gods in the form most accustomed to them by habit or tradition. We see the same thing done with the Buddha, whose appearance in art varies greatly from Sri Lanka to Thailand to Tibet to China to Japan in accordance with local traditions.
Also, maybe have a visit to the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington D.C., a magnificent structure that contains "81 chapels honoring Mary and reflecting the origins of the Catholic immigrants and religious orders whose generosity erected them." There are depictions of Mary in dozens of various cultural and ethnic contexts and appearances, demonstrating the universality of the concept.
Seriously though, "Middle Eastern" Jesus (to use Mr. Welby's phrase) covers a very wide latitude (no pun intended) and the appearance of a "Middle Easterner" can run the spectrum from nearly as white as, say, a Portuguese or Greek, to much more "Nubian."
This is taking the term in the Old Testament sense, similar to Kushites, an empire just south of Egypt that butted heads with Egypt from time to time over the centuries.
Beyond this little point (the wide spectrum inherent in "Middle Eastern"), it is only natural for people to portray their gods in the form most accustomed to them by habit or tradition. We see the same thing done with the Buddha, whose appearance in art varies greatly from Sri Lanka to Thailand to Tibet to China to Japan in accordance with local traditions.
Also, maybe have a visit to the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington D.C., a magnificent structure that contains "81 chapels honoring Mary and reflecting the origins of the Catholic immigrants and religious orders whose generosity erected them." There are depictions of Mary in dozens of various cultural and ethnic contexts and appearances, demonstrating the universality of the concept.
People's gods always look like themselves.
Maybe Christians could do something creative to solve the problem. They can make Jesus a color (one that is not a skin color like purple) and then define what purple symbolizes.
Hindu Gods get an A+ for creativity. Often we see gods like Shiva, Vishnu, and Krishna depicted with blue skin. Blue apparently can represent the infinite some-such immeasurable Brahman.
The problem is that humans often like to create gods that in their own image, going so far as to make their god human or half human. It sure seems a lot easier if a god is presented as an animal or a color. I think the Hindu way of thinking was on to something. Or, if Christians were polytheistic, they could have a pantheon of gods so everyone could find one that looks like them to relate to.
Christians have locked themselves into a corner with their strange trinity. Maybe they should depict them as Earth (Jesus), Wind (Holy Spirit), and Fire (the vengeful Father). ;-)
There's got to be a way for them to lose the focus on mirror-image skin color.
It's interesting to see the strengths and downfalls of the various mythological systems and how they have accommodate modern views.
Hindu Gods get an A+ for creativity. Often we see gods like Shiva, Vishnu, and Krishna depicted with blue skin. Blue apparently can represent the infinite some-such immeasurable Brahman.
The problem is that humans often like to create gods that in their own image, going so far as to make their god human or half human. It sure seems a lot easier if a god is presented as an animal or a color. I think the Hindu way of thinking was on to something. Or, if Christians were polytheistic, they could have a pantheon of gods so everyone could find one that looks like them to relate to.
Christians have locked themselves into a corner with their strange trinity. Maybe they should depict them as Earth (Jesus), Wind (Holy Spirit), and Fire (the vengeful Father). ;-)
There's got to be a way for them to lose the focus on mirror-image skin color.
It's interesting to see the strengths and downfalls of the various mythological systems and how they have accommodate modern views.
> Hindu Gods get an A+ for creativity. Often we see
> gods like Shiva, Vishnu, and Krishna depicted with
> blue skin.
Funny, Dags, but I would have said Christianity is every bit as creative as the Hindus. After all, their God appears as the father, the son, and the holy ghost.
And as for skin color, the vast majority of Christian art depicts God as European white. You can't get much more creative than that!
> gods like Shiva, Vishnu, and Krishna depicted with
> blue skin.
Funny, Dags, but I would have said Christianity is every bit as creative as the Hindus. After all, their God appears as the father, the son, and the holy ghost.
And as for skin color, the vast majority of Christian art depicts God as European white. You can't get much more creative than that!
I see this as kentish sees it above, and note also that the same thing can be said about the Buddha, whose image looks different in each land that adopts the ideas attributed to him.
What *really* needs to be rethought, and would be if our so called intellectual class had any guts, spine or principles, is the idea that ripping down public art changes anything. Alas, the slippery slope (via Twitter):
--------------------------------------
@shaunking:
Yes, I think the statues of the white European they claim is Jesus should also come down.
They are a form of white supremacy.
Always have been.
In the Bible, when the family of Jesus wanted to hide, and blend in, guess where they went?
EGYPT!
Not Denmark.
Tear them down.
https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1275106946916499456?s=20
------------------------------------
And of course, ineluctably, I'm seeing this kind of logic extended to calls to blow up Mt. Rushmore.
(Jesus, most likely, looked like the semitic Palestinian people of today, who are stuffed into the open air prisons of Gaza and the tiny pockets they have left on the West Bank. If Jesus means anything, it means freeing these people from their oppressors, for a start.)
Human
What *really* needs to be rethought, and would be if our so called intellectual class had any guts, spine or principles, is the idea that ripping down public art changes anything. Alas, the slippery slope (via Twitter):
--------------------------------------
@shaunking:
Yes, I think the statues of the white European they claim is Jesus should also come down.
They are a form of white supremacy.
Always have been.
In the Bible, when the family of Jesus wanted to hide, and blend in, guess where they went?
EGYPT!
Not Denmark.
Tear them down.
https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1275106946916499456?s=20
------------------------------------
And of course, ineluctably, I'm seeing this kind of logic extended to calls to blow up Mt. Rushmore.
(Jesus, most likely, looked like the semitic Palestinian people of today, who are stuffed into the open air prisons of Gaza and the tiny pockets they have left on the West Bank. If Jesus means anything, it means freeing these people from their oppressors, for a start.)
Human