Two days ago, I watched Dan Vogel's video analysis on the character and motives of Joseph Smith. Reading some of Joseph's old journals(which you presume he anticipated some privacy of thoughts in it) he says stuff personally to God, almost like writing down his prayers for strength and guidance. So, Vogel comes away with the ultimate conclusion that J.S. was indeed a fraud but he may have also been devout. That is, he lied a lot but only because he felt he could justify it in pursuit of the bigger picture of genuinely "doing the Lord's work."

I was watching a Grant Palmer speech this morning and he mentioned that J.S. actually tried to have several people assassinated, he attempted to run for President of the United States, and that he actually started preaching to the Native Americans in a bid to try to overthrow the United States government(just convince the Natives that this land was originally theirs from ancient times). It paints this picture of a very power hungry man, almost chaotic and frenzied in his pursuit. I mean, seriously, I forget the names but at one point, Joseph tried to have one of his detractors murdered and when the man he told to do it(a friend and believer) refused to, Joseph then tried to have THAT guy killed by someone else also. It feels like Breaking Bad levels of out of control megalomania.

What do you guys personally think of Joseph Smith and what kind of man he was?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2020 08:06AM by thegoodman.

I believe he shows signs of being a sociopath with unprincipled and amorous narcissism. But, that's just me being an armchair psyciastrist.

I think that Joseph Smith was a self-centered and destructive person. I get the impression that he believed that other people were put in this world to serve himand his needs without him having to reciprocate in kind. He hated women and blacks. The real tragedy is that there are a lot of human beings who will follow thugs such as the late Mr. Smith, thinking that he will lead them to salvation when all he really wanted to do was use them for his own ends. If the mob hadn't killed him in the Carthage jail, I'm sure that he would have died by the hands of the state or Federal governments because of his ultimate contempt for the wants and needs of other people!

I think he was a sociopath and quite willing to use people, whether they were male, female, white, black, or native american, but I think statements like he "hated women" are reading 21rst century world view into a very different would view. My impression is that he was very fond of his mother (at times), and many women he kept around him like Eliza Snow and others. Not a lot of data on his treatment of blacks.

It was in his writings. The roll of polygamy in Mormonism and his refusal to allow Emma to behave the same way and his justification of that dismissalin D&C 158 (I think that's right) pretty much sums up Mr. Smith's view of women. In the book of Mormon, the written belief that blacks were the children of Cain very much suggests a hatred of African-americans, if unconsciously.

Yes, it is true that I am basing it on late 20th century thinking about these matters. Furthermore, it is known that many of these views (with the execption of polygamy) were held by many of his peers. But, unless you believe that we haven't progressed in our knowledge about both groups since then (certainly an argument can be made for that), I will stand by my beliefs on this matter.

I think he was a sociopath, callous, a liar, and one of the best con artists around; his legacy has grown and managed to reach into the 21st century.

At the very least, he was disrespectful. Emma Hales’ father saw through him and told him to get out of Dodge when he asked for Emma’s hand in marriage. Was he respectful of Mr. Hale? No; instead, he convinces Emma to elope with him.

He created a wild cat bank, and came up with D&C 132 so that he could mess around to his heart’s content, with nary a dared complaint from Emma.

He has his Council of Fifty go along with declaring himself a king, and a Lieutenant General of his very own little army.

He used gullible people, such as Martin Harris, who mortgaged his house and farm for the Book of Mormon.

He was smart, but not for the benefit of anyone but himself.

Joe was a con-man and a narcissist. He wanted money and power, convincing people that he was god's prophet was a way of getting that. He wanted money, tithing was required. He wanted sex, an "angel with a flaming sword" (was that what he called his cock?) commanded him to take multiple wives. And anyone who called him out on it wasn't going against Joe, they were going against God! Cry "Havoc" and let slip the Danites!

And I doubt he believed he was doing God's work. Con men and narcissists don't serve anything higher than their own egos. They pull off cons out of a belief that they're smarter than their marks. Fool enough people and they start to believe themselves superior to everyone else. Commit enough fraud, they believe that they're above the law and consequences (Joe's burning of the Nauvoo Expositor for printing the truth about him was what landed him in Carthage Prison.) Joe wasn't devoted to any god, he was high on his own bullshit.

Mormons like to convince themselves that Joe was "like King David." The truth is Joe was more like H.H. Holmes.

I disagree about JS's understanding of what he was doing. My view is he was indeed a narcissist and probably a sociopath, as are many con artists, but a lot of those people grow to believe their own cons. That's one of the reasons they are so successful at persuading others: they are speaking more or less sincerely.

I'm reminded of a biography of the great German statesman Bismarck that I once read. When describing the subject's constant religiosity, the author said that Bismarck saw God as sort of a co-pilot or junior partner in a joint venture. God was thus an extension of the statesman's ego--itself a narcissistic pattern.

So I suspect JS may well have believed, with periods of doubt, that he and God were working together. Problems in the relationship only emerged when God failed to fulfill his assignments.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2020 05:44PM by Lot's Wife.

Joseph Smith was a con man who came from a family of grifters.

His experiences at a food stall near tent revivals gave him the idea of the fake religion. Then Sidney Rigdon came along and you know the rest of the story.

Joseph Smith's made up riturals for the Mormon "experience" mirror his life. He never got over the trauma of almost losing his leg as a young boy at eight years old (why that age for Mormon kids -- hmmm) and his brother Alvin's death. Harsh poverty made him lust for money and his narcissism made him indifferent to law and morality.

Did he believe it in the beginning? No.
Did he believe it in the end? Like a lot of self made shamans, probably yes.

>>My view is he was indeed a narcissist and probably a sociopath, as are many con artists, but a lot of those people grow to believe their own cons. That's one of the reasons they are so successful at persuading others: they are speaking more or less sincerely.

That's my take as well.

I just wish JS had lived longer. I think he would have destroyed Mormonism. He seemed to be quickly spinning out of control at the end.

That is spot on.

Mormonism would not have survived as anything other than a few splinter groups if JS had not died and BY assumed control and created his isolated theocracy in Utah.

I wonder what would have happened if he hadn't died in Carthage jail. I don't know the true history of that event, since I still have the glossy sheen of the Mormon martyr version rattling in my mind(I'll have to do research on that part of the history next). But I wonder if he went to trial for burning down the printing press, if we would have those records to look over now. Testimonies in a court of law about the polygamy, about Joseph's disregard for the law and the Constitution(freedom of speech). It'd be a lot harder to sweep that stuff aside if we had a firm court proceeding to account for what all occurred.

“Joseph tried to have one of his detractors murdered and when the man he told to do it(a friend and believer) refused to, Joseph then tried to have THAT guy killed by someone else also.”

You have to deal effectively with insolence if you ever expect to put a giant laser on the moon.

Of course Joseph believed his own BS. He was his first victim. Sure he was a con man, but he fell for his own con.

I agree with this assessment and Lot's Wife's phrasing of his ability to be/appear sincere. I mean, look at how many people who believed and validated his storytelling. At some point, it'd be hard *not* to think he had the power of God behind him. It rings true for a lot of cult master behaviors as well; that genuine belief that they are chosen.

When confronted with true evil, the first thing we try and do is explain it.
Someone shoots up a schoolyard, and always:
"why did (he/she/it) do it?"
If we can explain it, we make it understandable, and so human, and so okay, and so the world is again safe. (So we think.)

So we have someone who is:
* Charismatic. A real charmer.
* Convincing. Not a planner, but rather able to spin tales, enlisting the support and aid of capable others who do the hard work.
* Ungrounded -- truth is whatever suits the moment.
* Lawless. No ethical constraints.
* Loyalty-free. People are discarded (by whatever means) once no longer useful.


I think he was just a true psychopath. Nothing fancier.

In the psychopath, the part of the brain where laws, ethics, loyalty, and conscience live is silent.
It's not working.
It's turned off.
This is also the part of the brain that makes us human. (vmPFC)

The charisma and convincing-ness of these is from having no guilt, no bounds, no conscience, and so presenting as free, unburdened, and knowing firmly which way is up. Very attractive in an uncertain world.

What he demonstrated was just really bad behavior.
Nothing grander than that.

We try and explain it - yes, even us - as something covertly noble.
Because we have normal brains, working normally, and so cannot conceive of their world.
Because the thought that evil actually exists, is unbearable.

> In the psychopath, the part of the brain where
> laws, ethics, loyalty, and conscience live is
> silent.
=============================

Forgot to mention empathy.
Empathy also lives there

Horndog sociopath.

Narcissist, sociopath

He was a jackass that got his reward with a painful death.

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He was a jackass that got his reward with a
> painful death.


a Painful, Humiliating death done by the hands of neighbors.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was found that fathers & husbands of his 'other wives' were responsible along with those cheated by his 'Anti-Banking Society'.

Yet Mormons revere him & in effect worship him.

Look at Warren Jeffs. He has spent his whole life emulating JS.

Whether he ended up believing his own spiel is difficult to nail down, but he certainly believed in magic and the occult, as his seerstone diggings and Jupiter talisman show (described in great detail in D. Michael Quinn's wonderful book "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View"), so we at least know he was capable of believing in something. He was certainly capable of belieiving in himself...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2020 12:39PM by Soft Machine.

There could be no better man to play Joseph Smith in a documentary than Mitt Romney.

Could you not see the guy talking with Native Americans if it was possible for them to overthrow part of the country and install him in power?

Maybe Joseph Smith was the original author of the quote he only needed 56% of the U.S. to vote for him.

Let's consider his good side, his above average talents. Joe was a guy born with a great deal of inteligence, charisma, he was he
life of the party everywhere he went, and above average in looks. Everyone loved him, especially women. He was like Elvis and Donald Trump all mixed up together. People who are blessed with above average capabilities, and are smooth talkers (like Bill Clinton) live by a different set of rules than the
rest of us. Are they bad people? No, not really. They wouldn't be adored if they were.

Lets compare him to someone who was a bad person. How about Hitler, Hitler didn't like people, he wasn't liked as a boy, he wasn't the life of the party, and wasn't handsome. He learned how to use his voice to get people worked up into a frenzie, and manuvered his way into government positions, and somehow took over even though very few wanted to be National Socialists. In the end people feared Hitler.

Someone brought up Warren Jeffs above. Warren isn't bad, he's just not too smart. Couldn't detect a sinking ship and changing times. Women didn't like him, He basically was in the middle of a big mess that he couldn't get out of (and not that smart).

Joseph not a bad person? Really?

At the very least he was a narcissist. My grandfather was one and he could charm the pants off anyone. He wasn't good looking but he was smart and he started to believe the lies he told. Believing your own lies makes you an even better liar. I was always so frustrated that outsiders only saw his pretty face and not the ugly one his family saw. Family see it because narcissists cannot wear the pretty mask 24/7. It gets too heavy.

Same thing happened with Joan Crawford. When her daughter revealed her narcissistic behaviors there were multitudes who called her a liar because they had never seen anything but the mask JC wore when seducing them. If there was something she could gain from someone she kept the mask on. It only came off when she used up everything she was getting from a person.

Now I see the same thing with Ellen DeGeneres. Her staff are saying she knew how horrible things were behind the scenes and did nothing. But the celebrities she counts among her friends say they have never seen that side of her. Of course she is crying. You would be too if you thought you were going to lose your cash cow.

Intelligence, charisma, physical attractiveness, and being the life of the party are not moral traits. As Pooped intimates, they are often indications of the opposite. I have no problem condemning Elvis, Donald Trump, Bill Clinton, Warren Jeffs, and Joseph Smith--every one of them a rapist and a man who left human devastation in his wake--as evil.

I'm not sure why that is a difficult call.

My theory is that Brodie captured the reality of Joseph Smith better than anyone else I've read.

He could have run Dan Brown a close race as a creative novelist

He was a money grubbing con man and people believed him and he flourished.
.

I think nothing of him.

He was cunning, rebellious, manipulative, secretive, vindictive, misleading, fraudulent, two-faced, etc....

I don't think much of anyone like that.

I think we often give Joseph too much credit.

Many would have preferred a Bill Clinton to what we got, maybe even I would as he could make more of an intelligent case for the church and it would have been a lot larger than it is today and a lot less OCD who knows even an LDS person might actually have been president.

Instead Joseph was an uneducated adulterer. I think he had a basic con going but others joined on seeing the money that could be made. Maybe they even thought if the scam was discovered they could just blame Joseph. Who knows but as time went on it became clear the church could not throw Joseph under the bus without stopping the money printing machine so they started revising everything about him and covering for him. Thus the Joseph Myth we know today was born.

He liked Sex, Money, & power-authority.

end of report.