I've been a follower here off and on for many years and at one point was "active" in this forum, but it's been at least a few years since I've written anything. So long ago that I don't even remember what my user name was.

Brief background:

I grew up in the church and then gradually became inactive during young adulthood. Occasionally I tried going back and looking at the religion from the perspective of an investigator. I even took the missionary lessons a couple of times. But eventually I totally broke off contact (around mid-30's I think). It's even been a few years now since anyone from the church has tried to contact me.

I'm now in my early 50's, been divorced for more than two decades, my children are grown and I'm an empty-nester with 4 grandchildren.

For the last 10 years I've been in the first healthy and non-abusive relationship with a man I wish I could marry but circumstances beyond our control it wouldn't be wise (medical, insurance related. it's complicated and there are many other couples who face similar issues).
Here is where Mormonism is relevant to the emotional pain I am in right now. We all know the importance "the church" places on family and marriage.

Even though I am a middle-aged woman with grown children and am a grandmother, I still have always wanted to get re-married ever since my divorce (while I was in my 20's with very young children). I even wished I could have had a child with my current partner even though he is older (mid-60's now, and I was already around 40 when I met him 11+ years ago when he was mid-50's).

Within a couple years of meeting we did talk about marriage. But then not long after, my health went downhill and it took another few years to get an accurate diagnosis of the chronic illness I have.. which is one of a few other health issues.
We realized that if I lost my health insurance (I'm on disability) that he would not be able to financially support me and we would both end up in a worse situation.

There are probably missing pieces from this story but I'm trying to not make it too long.

So.. long story short we have stayed together as a couple ever since but have kept separate residences although I was spending a lot of time at his place. In a way it's been like living together part time if that makes sense.

Fast forward to now. We are all several months into this pandemic and stress has taken a toll. Things were already tense (long story) and we had anticipated things getting better for us.
But then.. Covid.. along with changes with his job, and him becoming busier than ever.

I haven't been employed in several years but am currently working on a major project (cleaning my apartment which I'd mostly neglected for years). My place didn't get as bad as those Hoarders TV shows, but I had never even finished upacking and organizing after moving in here. Years went by where there was a combination of significant health issues plus staying at his place often more than at my own.

Over a month ago I went back over to my apartment to clean and organize and have not been over to visit him since then. We did not break up. He didn't say he didn't want to see me, or that I couldn't go over. And we have had a few occasions where we went out for lunch or some other brief visit.
I did not plan on being apart this long and neither of us had any particular time-frame of when I'd go back over and stay at his place again. We have both been busy. He is working (from home luckily) from early morning until evening, shortly before he goes to sleep and gets up to do it all again. He has had multiple projects to work on since his company lost some people who can do some of the stuff he does (it's all computer stuff which I vaguely understand but can't really explain).
And I have been unpacking boxes and bags stuffed with things from years ago (along with lots of painful and very emotional memories). There is a reason I put off sorting through my things in order to get organized.
I am also getting prepared to babysit grandchildren again after months of not having them over here. I have a room that has always stayed childproof and clean and safe, but now they are getting older (toddler/baby and 3 yr old) and will also be staying here for longer visits after a new sibling arrives next month.

"Okay cut to the chase!" you're probably thinking, if you read this far.

I miss him and have gotten increasingly depressed as the weeks went by. But at some point I realized and agreed that I really should stay and get this finished.
He has been (and is) pretty much my only source of emotional support over the years. The people in my past who I thought were "friends" were actually really toxic and even damaging. And the same with most family members, although they all now live in different states and even the phone calls have become kind of rare and now I only have maybe a few conversations with family per year.

So about a week ago I started feeling terribly lonely and reached out to one of them whom I'd had an okay conversation with last time.. so I figured it wouldn't hurt to call. Before I tell you what happened, I will also say that I was feeling very vulnerable and triggered (hesitate to use that word but it's honest).. from unpacking a ton of memories. Plus exhausted.

The main concern I had mentioned to this family member when I called was that I'm worried about how this fall and winter might be if the covid19 numbers spike again. My boyfriend and I had already discussed the possibility that *if* things get worse, I might need to be separate from him since I'll be babysitting grandchildren who might be in contact with people of unknown infection status.
Between his age and other risk factors it would be really scary if he caught this virus. I myself am also considered to be high risk because I take immune suppressing medication/infusions, but I am younger. Plus it seems like it has been found that other issues such as high blood pressure or diabetes put people at higher risk than immunocompromised. We are all still learning things.

When I mentioned my concern along with my current loneliness, I did not hear any comforting words. Instead I was basically told that my anxiety and depression is my own doing because I am choosing to "cower in fear over a virus that you won't even catch as long as you just wash your hands, don't touch your face, and wear mask in public.. and wear one when you babysit if you are really THAT afraid of whoever they might be in contact with.."

And "There is absolutely NOTHING that will change this winter except that you just have to be extra careful with hygiene. No reason to not visit your boyfriend. Just wash your hands after babysitting, then go over and visit him with a mask on. That's it! Nothing else will be different.. and you can even hold his hand.. but wear gloves if you are SO scared. What could POSSIBLY be any different than how it's always been? You two can talk and watch a movie together, laugh, or even share a meal! Tell me WHAT ON EARTH would be different..?"

Um..

Except that isn't how this works. If I'm quarantining with my daughter and son-in-law's family then no, I cannot go back to "exactly the way things have been". The whole point was that he and I would agree to socially distance. Obviously that changes things a lot. Staying at least a few feet away from someone while wearing a mask (if inside) or having just short visits outdoors is obviously very different from how it has been.

(And yes, she knew all along that I had been spending a lot of days each week at his place.) So in context, it was weird and sarcastic. And very hurtful.

It didn't stop there though. In addition to ridiculing me for being afraid of a virus and saying that I should "rather catch covid19 and die from it than miss seeing my precious little grand-babies or my significant other"... she also insisted that I should question my relationship if my boyfriend is okay with the idea of staying apart for an indefinite amount of time ("Maybe he just doesn't want you around?"). And promised me that we'll eventually drift apart and break up.

Among other accusing and hurtful statements which at the end of the tirade had me wondering if maybe(?) she had some valid concerns. For example, she shares the opinion that I've heard from others in the past that "if someone really loves you and claims to be committed they will want to see you every day or at least talk on the phone daily..".

It went on and on.. and I could hardly get a word in while she was talking over me and telling me that all of my worst fears are actually true and confirming my insecurities.. while at the same time saying that I am paranoid over a virus and am letting it ruin my relationships.

Without going into a much longer backstory, this might not seem like a big deal. You might be wondering why I can't just brush it off. But that conversation crushed me and then led to an argument with my boyfriend which turned into a nasty bitter fight during one of the few phone-calls he and I have had the chance to have recently.

He is a very patient person. And has put up with my family "messing with us" by messing with me during most of the years we've been together. He was already under a lot of other pressures and at the tipping point. We both have been, and this was the last thing we needed.

And I could have done without someone telling me during their rant about covid paranoia, to "listen for the promptings of the spirit..." along with other unhelpful advice. She knows I haven't been active at church for a couple of decades. It felt sarcastic and things like this still (still!) have a way of triggering a bit of guilt and shame.

I'll end here for now and fill in the gaps if there are questions. I am depressed, angry and heartbroken as I'm realizing that I again have trusted someone in a moment of desperation and let them into my head. Especially during a time like this. I would have been better off reaching out to strangers on the internet.. which is where I am now.

I am very sorry you are going through all of this.

I do have some words which come from both life experience and from knowledge.

First of all: Many seniors are in your position, and are dealing with either similar problems, or the logically potential problems [what happens if someone gets seriously ill; who will take care of them?], in similar ways. (For example: many seniors are involved in polyamorous relationships, where there are three or more in a "chosen family," for the same, or similar, reasons: companionship; safety; stronger economics for all; etc.)

Living part-time at your house, and part-time at your partner's house, is a great idea if it fulfills the needs of each of you! If either of you need help of some kind, I assume that you each will be ready to help the other person.

Just dismiss anyone who makes fun of this virus. This virus kills people (listen to your local TV news to find out how many people in your area died in the last day, or week, or month). Even if someone gets the virus and does not die, the medical and hospital bills will be often be horrific, and whoever gets this (according to what I have read and heard) will never be "the same" again. Common sense says: Avoid this virus with every weapon you have access to (masks, social distancing, good nutrition, etc.). If someone tells you that you shouldn't be paying much attention to thwarting the virus, that person should (in my opinion) no longer be in your life.

This relative is also not in charge of your personal relationship(s), and knows nothing about how many real people live (even in times without a pandemic). People often live in separate residences, or places, for all kinds of reasons (someone has a job in another place, or is going to school, etc.). People in the military routinely live apart from their partners for periods both large and small--and no one gives a second thought to it.

I think you need to figure out just how important this relative (and, perhaps, other relatives who have similar convictions) is to YOU. Lots of families (I come from one of them) have certain relatives who, despite the fact that they ARE relatives, are no longer present, or welcome, as family anymore. In my experience, this is actually fairly normal for a percentage of the population.

Relatives can be "dismissed" from YOUR life if they are causing problems. If you feel the need, you can send them a birthday card and a Christmas card annually--and if you hear they have died, you can decide whether you do, or do not, want to attend the family activities.

Most or all of this is up to YOU.

Figure out what, in the best of all possible world of choices, YOU want and need--and then live your life as YOU think best.

You have long ago "come of age," and your life NOW is totally up to YOU.

I hope this helps.

Tevai,

Thank you!Yes, that really helps a lot.

I think a lot of my feeling of insecurity/uncertainty of how I'm living my life comes from having unrealistic expectations. Expecting a certain "normal" way of life that I ought to have.. if I am doing the "right things" (in other words, have earned or deserve it).

It is so deeply ingrained into people who are in strict religions that there is a good/bad way to live. Obviously there are bad ways if it's hurts anyone. But the idea that anything is totally okay as long as adults are consenting, is still so new to me I guess.

I did not know that there are a lot of seniors who are polyamorous. That is interesting! Do you mean they have a lover "on the side" if the companion they are committed to can't provide all of their needs? Or do you mean they live in a group where they love each other intimately, while also benefitting from more financial security and companionship?

Wow.. I have lived an incredibly sheltered life.
My boyfriend and I have a list of movies that we'd like to watch, which I've never seen (mostly cause they are rated R) and he is often shocked at some of the naive and, sadly, judgemental things I say sometimes about people in general.
Even though I left "the church" many years ago he sees me as kind of a Molly Mormon.

As far as dismissing problematic family members,.. well, I have begun the proccess with others by putting my foot down and refusing to take their emotional abuse. It becomes difficult though when you gradually realize that nearly ALL of them are narcissists and manipulative.
It's a mess :-(

I get you on the feeling of not having earned, or not being deserving of something. Even though I grew up Catholic, it's not unusual for me to feel the same way. Religions can really do a number on you, can't they?

I've known about the kind of relationship that you have with your boyfriend for a long time. I don't think it's at all unusual among senior couples. Keep doing what works for you. It may be that when you transition to Social Security and Medicare, you might be able to marry at that time. Or, you may have the capacity to marry and decide that you like how things are instead.

Regarding problematic family members -- I was discussing a semi-public figure with a friend this past week. I told her that she wouldn't believe it -- the woman and turned into an ultra-conservative religious nutter. Not just someone who follows her faith, but someone who has completely gone off the deep end. My friend responded, "That's my entire family." For the first time, I understood what she was dealing with. She said that she swept them all off of her Facebook, and they are upset about that, but she's a lot happier now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/2020 02:06AM by summer.

I agree with Tevai. Just ignore virus nay-sayers. Let them expose themselves. They don't have to bring you into it. I also agree with her that you and your boyfriend get to set the terms of your relationship, and no one else. If you need some time apart for whatever reasons, so be it.

I totally get the urge to organize and clean things out. I teach ten months a year, so summer is my time to do deep cleaning and organizing. I've struggled to finish the past couple of years, but this year is going well. My long-neglected home office is shaping up nicely.

Let me tell you about a dream that I had this past week. I saw someone that I seemed to recognize in my dream world, but not IRL. We embraced, and he said, "You've been going through a really hard time lately, haven't you?" And when I woke up, I was curious about this remark. My first instinct was to think, no, I'm good, because I've had to toughen up as we've all had to do. But then I realized that the remark from my dream-mind was on target -- I *have* been going through a tough time. We all have. So give yourself some love for staying home, being lonely sometimes, wearing a mask, taking care of your loved ones, cleaning up, and all of that. Give yourself the break that you would want others to give to you.

We're here for you. Keep posting! This board has been a lifeline for many.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Tevai. Just ignore virus nay-sayers.
> Let them expose themselves. They don't have to
> bring you into it. I also agree with her that you
> and your boyfriend get to set the terms of your
> relationship, and no one else. If you need some
> time apart for whatever reasons, so be it.
>
> I totally get the urge to organize and clean
> things out. I teach ten months a year, so summer
> is my time to do deep cleaning and organizing.
> I've struggled to finish the past couple of years,
> but this year is going well. My long-neglected
> home office is shaping up nicely.
>
> Let me tell you about a dream that I had this past
> week. I saw someone that I seemed to recognize in
> my dream world, but not IRL. We embraced, and he
> said, "You've been going through a really hard
> time lately, haven't you?" And when I woke up, I
> was curious about this remark. My first instinct
> was to think, no, I'm good, because I've had to
> toughen up as we've all had to do. But then I
> realized that the remark from my dream-mind was on
> target -- I *have* been going through a tough
> time. We all have. So give yourself some love for
> staying home, being lonely sometimes, wearing a
> mask, taking care of your loved ones, cleaning up,
> and all of that. Give yourself the break that you
> would want others to give to you.
>
> We're here for you. Keep posting! This board has
> been a lifeline for many.

Thank you for your kind words. This is a difficult time.. for most people (and the ones who say it isn't or that they chose to look on the brightside are probably having their own struggles too).

And regarding your other reply:
"I get you on the feeling of not having earned, or not being deserving of something. Even though I grew up Catholic, it's not unusual for me to feel the same way. Religions can really do a number on you, can't they?

I've known about the kind of relationship that you have with your boyfriend for a long time. I don't think it's at all unusual among senior couples. Keep doing what works for you. It may be that when you transition to Social Security and Medicare, you might be able to marry at that time. Or, you may have the capacity to marry and decide that you like how things are instead."

Yep. Religions can do a number on you. After I left Mormonism I went to a few different evangelical churches and in some ways those were even worse. But the common thread was GUILT along with the false belief that people get what they deserve. And if you try to point out the fact that lots of people make the same "bad choices" (sex outside of marriage being the biggest mistake of all it seems to them), without suffering any bad results, they will say God will punish them eventually. (in this life or the next)

Re: Social Security and Medicare I already am on those and we could actually live together without my losing SSDI, but I'm not totally sure about the insurance since I also have Medicaid which is how I am able to get expensive IV infusions. After trying other medications for rheumatoid arthritis, biologics turned out to be what helps.. and they are incredibly expensive.
If I only had Medicare I would probably end up like many others who cannot afford the co-payments which run into hundreds per month. And Medicaid is household income based.
There are catch-22's which sound impossible to (some) people who aren't directly dealing with it themselves. I'm sure you know what I mean. It is so nice to have validation that I'm not just "making excuses for not getting married"!

Also, it can't be stressed enough: 'Men are pigs!'

We want relationships to be less complicated than trying our shoelaces and we leap to being miffed when a knot appears. We disgruntle with ease and resist regruntling.

I hope you've allowed him to forgive you for him being a jerk...

I actually live with my gay "ex." We are not divorced. We are both 63. I need his insurance, but that isn't why we didn't divorce. I didn't have the emotional energy at the time he left me. He and his boyfriend were too brutal, I was working 2 jobs, and had 2 kids to raise, let alone taking care of the house that he wouldn't agree to sell and my kids wanted to stay, and I am the enabler in my family, so my family still comes to me and did through all the bad years. At least, most of my family is not mormon and my parents accepted my choices considering what I had been through (and my parents weren't your typical mormons).

And so I've been in a relationship with a guy I dated at age 20 and we reconnected when I was 47. He is 67 and I'm 63. We do see each other and he works still. My "husband" still works at the hospital and my son was working until he had a mental breakdown back the end of May. There haven't been a lot of deaths in the area of Utah I live in. BUT this whole covid thing has taken a toll on all of us, especially my son and I. I had cataract surgery 6 weeks ago, another one next Thursday, and I am getting dentures in September or October. Broke a front tooth a few weeks ago. No, there isn't a space that people can see, and masks come in great for this.

When my husband left, I wanted to prove to him that someone would want me. I was shocked that my old boyfriend showed up, the one I really wanted to reconnect with for years. I wanted to marry him. I have more reasons than not having insurance to not get a divorce. I won't go into them. I realize it would not be a good thing for my boyfriend and I to marry. I also learned that living with him was a disaster. We argued constantly. At my house, I live upstairs with my son and my husband lives downstairs except for the kitchen. I will be better off as a retiree because of my husband's pension and his savings, which I don't have as I was raising the kids and getting next to no help. I could go to court and take half, but then he'd get half the house, and I won't purchase a house with my boyfriend. His children would certainly get every penny of the equity when I died. I'll probably die first. Never know, but I think I will anyway.

Right now we are going through a crazy time just like you had that argument with your boyfriend. We just had a huge argument over something I called my therapist about and I haven't talked to him in 3 months. Luckily, I have a therapist who I've seen for YEARS and knows everyone in my life. My boyfriend is extremely high maintenance and he'd even admit it. My therapist also knows him and agrees. I'm having surgery this week and have covid testing Monday and go into quarantine until my surgery is over. Last time, my boyfriend did everything in his power to try to see me during my quarantine. He just can't not see me every day, but I make him not see me everyday. I'm a people pleaser and it is very difficult to make him NOT SEE ME EVERY DAY. I'm an introvert. He has no friends in the area and no kids here. He needs someone else besides me (and not another girlfriend).

Right now, of course, we are struggling, but guess what. Every time something happens to ME, my whole family and my boyfriend come unglued or become extremely needy, EXTREMELY. I'm not talking to my brother, who is my bst friend, because of how he acted when I had my last surgery and my little sister also had a tantrum just before I had my last surgery. My son who had the mental breakdown is the one who stayed with me the 24 hours after the anesthesia and everyone else, including the boyfriend, had something else to do. My brother called the day after surgery and had me in tears for 2 hours--so are you supposed to cry for 2 hours after you have eye surgery. That is the story of my life. And I'm really irritated about it today.

Today, I'd prefer to be alone forever.

If your relationship has been going along this long, I believe you'll work it out, just like my boyfriend and I will. I wish you had a good therapist to talk to. He even allows me to e-mail him. I don't abuse the privilege.

What was interesting is that it is the sister who I've had the most trouble with in life who has been there since my son had his breakdown and when I was having a meltdown yesterday, she was the one that had the best reply that helped me the most. I'm in shock. She is still active mormon, but doesn't believe much of it. If you had asked me 3 months ago who would be the best support system I would have this summer, it would never have been HER.

I think COVID is taking a toll on everyone. Just because you don't see someone everyday including weeks, months, doesn't mean the relationship will be over. Do what YOU FEEL is safe. Communicate with you boyfriend and TRY NOT TO LET that person's advice get to you. Break it down. Think it through. Go for a long walk and rethink what she said and realize that this person has no clue what your life is like and what your relationships are like.

Sorry so long. Just recently, I've been in that kind of mood of 'what is it I did wrong that I didn't get a normal life?' So I get that side of things VERY WELL.

relationship for 7 years, a state away, and only saw each other about every 5 months. We talked on weekdays for a little while and e-mailed, etc. And we survived the not seeing each other every day.

Just a quick word cl2.

You are very resilient and resourceful.

Does anybody have a normal life?

Hang in there.

To OP: What everybody else said.

cl2notloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I actually live with my gay "ex." We are not
> divorced. We are both 63. I need his insurance,
> but that isn't why we didn't divorce. I didn't
> have the emotional energy at the time he left me.
> He and his boyfriend were too brutal, I was
> working 2 jobs, and had 2 kids to raise, let alone
> taking care of the house that he wouldn't agree to
> sell and my kids wanted to stay, and I am the
> enabler in my family, so my family still comes to
> me and did through all the bad years. At least,
> most of my family is not mormon and my parents
> accepted my choices considering what I had been
> through (and my parents weren't your typical
> mormons).
>
> And so I've been in a relationship with a guy I
> dated at age 20 and we reconnected when I was 47.
> He is 67 and I'm 63. We do see each other and he
> works still. My "husband" still works at the
> hospital and my son was working until he had a
> mental breakdown back the end of May. There
> haven't been a lot of deaths in the area of Utah I
> live in. BUT this whole covid thing has taken a
> toll on all of us, especially my son and I. I had
> cataract surgery 6 weeks ago, another one next
> Thursday, and I am getting dentures in September
> or October. Broke a front tooth a few weeks ago.
> No, there isn't a space that people can see, and
> masks come in great for this.
>
> When my husband left, I wanted to prove to him
> that someone would want me. I was shocked that my
> old boyfriend showed up, the one I really wanted
> to reconnect with for years. I wanted to marry
> him. I have more reasons than not having
> insurance to not get a divorce. I won't go into
> them. I realize it would not be a good thing for
> my boyfriend and I to marry. I also learned that
> living with him was a disaster. We argued
> constantly. At my house, I live upstairs with my
> son and my husband lives downstairs except for the
> kitchen. I will be better off as a retiree
> because of my husband's pension and his savings,
> which I don't have as I was raising the kids and
> getting next to no help. I could go to court and
> take half, but then he'd get half the house, and I
> won't purchase a house with my boyfriend. His
> children would certainly get every penny of the
> equity when I died. I'll probably die first.
> Never know, but I think I will anyway.
>
> Right now we are going through a crazy time just
> like you had that argument with your boyfriend.
> We just had a huge argument over something I
> called my therapist about and I haven't talked to
> him in 3 months. Luckily, I have a therapist who
> I've seen for YEARS and knows everyone in my life.
> My boyfriend is extremely high maintenance and
> he'd even admit it. My therapist also knows him
> and agrees. I'm having surgery this week and have
> covid testing Monday and go into quarantine until
> my surgery is over. Last time, my boyfriend did
> everything in his power to try to see me during my
> quarantine. He just can't not see me every day,
> but I make him not see me everyday. I'm a people
> pleaser and it is very difficult to make him NOT
> SEE ME EVERY DAY. I'm an introvert. He has no
> friends in the area and no kids here. He needs
> someone else besides me (and not another
> girlfriend).
>
> Right now, of course, we are struggling, but guess
> what. Every time something happens to ME, my
> whole family and my boyfriend come unglued or
> become extremely needy, EXTREMELY. I'm not
> talking to my brother, who is my bst friend,
> because of how he acted when I had my last surgery
> and my little sister also had a tantrum just
> before I had my last surgery. My son who had the
> mental breakdown is the one who stayed with me the
> 24 hours after the anesthesia and everyone else,
> including the boyfriend, had something else to do.
> My brother called the day after surgery and had
> me in tears for 2 hours--so are you supposed to
> cry for 2 hours after you have eye surgery. That
> is the story of my life. And I'm really irritated
> about it today.
>
> Today, I'd prefer to be alone forever.
>
> If your relationship has been going along this
> long, I believe you'll work it out, just like my
> boyfriend and I will. I wish you had a good
> therapist to talk to. He even allows me to e-mail
> him. I don't abuse the privilege.
>
> What was interesting is that it is the sister who
> I've had the most trouble with in life who has
> been there since my son had his breakdown and when
> I was having a meltdown yesterday, she was the one
> that had the best reply that helped me the most.
> I'm in shock. She is still active mormon, but
> doesn't believe much of it. If you had asked me 3
> months ago who would be the best support system I
> would have this summer, it would never have been
> HER.
>
> I think COVID is taking a toll on everyone. Just
> because you don't see someone everyday including
> weeks, months, doesn't mean the relationship will
> be over. Do what YOU FEEL is safe. Communicate
> with you boyfriend and TRY NOT TO LET that
> person's advice get to you. Break it down. Think
> it through. Go for a long walk and rethink what
> she said and realize that this person has no clue
> what your life is like and what your relationships
> are like.
>
> Sorry so long. Just recently, I've been in that
> kind of mood of 'what is it I did wrong that I
> didn't get a normal life?' So I get that side of
> things VERY WELL.


cl2 I have read many of your posts over the years. I'm not sure if you were here when I used to post, and there have been long gaps of time when I hadn't even been here to do some reading, but I kind of feel like I've gotten to know you.
What you went through with your marriage (and the church encouraging you to marry a gay man thinking that would be a good thing).. wow. I can only imagine how devastating that was!

The LDS religion does appear to be a source of happiness and peace for *some* people. And if it works for them then great. I wouldn't try to take it away from them. But when it goes badly for others.. it can get really bad and create so many problems (as you know).

I am glad you've been able to have a situation that works for you and that you haven't been constrained within not only the ways religion tells people how to live, but also the way society tries to tell us is "normal" or conventional.

In all honesty, I still want the type of life I always desired and even expected I would have. But it didn't turn out that way and it's not because I didn't try hard enough or cause I "sinned".

I grew up abused, then got married very young and had kids. Then my husband left when I was in my late 20's and the youngest was still a toddler.
I struggled through the first decade after my divorce which included trying to deal with PTSD and what I would later find out is brain injury (another long story). Plus some un-diagnosed physical issues which gradually got worse.

But my kids still managed to grow into awesome people.

The early part of the 2nd decade after the divorce is when things started to really look up. I broke the (relatively short in hindsight) chain of dating relationships where the guys usually turned out to be narcissists. I realized that my "friends" were not truly my friends but that I was like a project to them.
And I took the plunge into learning martial arts.. where I met some wonderful people and actually began to have peers who were on the same level and not the power-imbalanced "friendships" that I previously had.

That is where I met my boyfriend who is the person I thought I would marry. But then my health went back downhill (and worse than ever). He stuck with me through all of that and for a few of those years we had hopes of me being able to get back into martial arts, employment, etc... but that did not happen.

Now that we have spent some time apart (not totally apart since we still get together for brief visits, but it's not like before) I am thinking a lot and realizing how amazingly patient and supportive he has been.
I'm crying while I type this because my daughter's 3rd baby is due very soon and I'll be helping her family out and babysitting, which means I probably still won't be going back over to stay at his place for a while. Weeks? At the very least. Months?... Maybe.

So yep, being told that my relationship will definitely fall apart if I "allow fear of a virus to ruin things" is horrible. Thankfully there are people here who actually understand that life is not as simple as just following a set of rules and then not worrying about anything since God is in control and we're only here on earth to be tested, etc.
I appreciate the validation and compassion.

that just because something else is preventing you from being with your boyfriend, that it won't last. People told me that all the time about my boyfriend and I, and here we are. We've outlasted many couples we know who told us it couldn't work. The mormon neighbors were sure it wouldn't work out.

But I worry, too, because someone cheated on me and then left me, I am always wondering if I'm not doing enough to keep the relationship together, etc.

If you've been left before, it is so easy to let someone convince you that it can't possibly last, when it has for how long? I'm sure you and your boyfriend will be fine and you are right to be concerned about the virus.

Haven't you ever noticed a lot of people hope things go wrong for you? You just talked to one. She is not someone I'd ever talk to again. I really don't think you need to worry about the boyfriend. He'll be there for you. You do what you need to to take care of your children and grandchildren.

Thank you, Nightingale, for what you said. I have to remind myself that most people don't have a normal life. AND some of those mormons I grew up with have such BORING lives.

cl2notloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> that just because something else is preventing you
> from being with your boyfriend, that it won't
> last. People told me that all the time about my
> boyfriend and I, and here we are. We've outlasted
> many couples we know who told us it couldn't work.
> The mormon neighbors were sure it wouldn't work
> out.
>
> But I worry, too, because someone cheated on me
> and then left me, I am always wondering if I'm not
> doing enough to keep the relationship together,
> etc.
>
> If you've been left before, it is so easy to let
> someone convince you that it can't possibly last,
> when it has for how long? I'm sure you and your
> boyfriend will be fine and you are right to be
> concerned about the virus.
>
> Haven't you ever noticed a lot of people hope
> things go wrong for you? You just talked to one.
> She is not someone I'd ever talk to again. I
> really don't think you need to worry about the
> boyfriend. He'll be there for you. You do what
> you need to to take care of your children and
> grandchildren.
>
> Thank you, Nightingale, for what you said. I have
> to remind myself that most people don't have a
> normal life. AND some of those mormons I grew up
> with have such BORING lives.


Yes. My divorce was due to my husband leaving for someone else (and she was a mutual friend so that made it really weird!).
And there are other insecurities from past relationships where I wasn't cheated on but there were other things that created trust issues and/or it was an on again + off again type of deal where I got attached.. and then wouldn't see or hear from the guy for awhile (some might call that ghosting?).
While sorting through old stack of papers and notebooks I've been finding old letters that I had written to an ex which reminded me of how painful that situation was. I still had the letters because I would sometimes write them and not send, or I would write a different one.

I do realize that was a choice on my part though, to stay in a relationship like that. In fairness to him he was going through a lot of really tough stuff along with depression, job losses, health issues and other things he struggled with for a few years. But... even though I knew the right thing to do was to remain a friend and let go of the hopes for any type of permanent commitment, I still allowed my feelings to take over.

Actually I think I might have even written about that on this forum while I was still in the middle of it. It would have been around 12 or 13 years ago. (Wow time flies!!)

Anyway, those old memories resurfacing while I'm organizing my place are most likely a part of the emotions and irrational fears about separation. I get worried even if just one day goes by that I haven't heard from my boyfriend. It's not a fear of him losing interest though. It's worry that he might not be okay, or is working too hard (he does work very long days).
He assured me that he really is okay and has had a lot more years of living alone than I have. But I'm still not dealing well with being away from him.
His work is a big distraction and that helps him. But I'm a lot more isolated and I need to somehow find a way to remedy that while also in a pandemic. That is a challenge!
I am trying though. Since I'm on disability and don't drive I'm alone a lot but I take online courses that are free (auditing, no credit for them but they are good for my brain). I need to find ways to talk to people and find peers.

Otherwise, at this point, if I weed out the toxic people (almost all family) then I only talk to him, my kids, and have rare occasions when he and I visit a couple of mutual friends who we met when we both did martial arts together during the first few years of our relationship. Incidentally they happen to be a married couple who have not said anything negative about our arrangement! Imagine that. There is hope for humanity lol

I have no advice, but what's already been given. But, know that there are people who care, even if you've never met us.

You're doing just fine. It's hard right now especially. Be kind to yourself.

I can relate to a lot of what you say, stillrecovering. Maybe we will all be still recovering always, from whatever it is that has hurt and stymied us in life. Different circumstances for each of us but common themes. Somehow, at some point, we each have to figure out how to proceed on our own terms and not pay over-much attention to what others say or what we think they think. Tall order - it takes time and thought and discipline to change how we react. I have found it helps me to keep firmly in mind what my own opinions and needs are and, while I may choose to listen to others I eventually make whatever I feel is the best choice for myself. This works out better than going along to get along and ending up in an ill-fitting suit on the advice of or at the wishes of others.

On another note - I'm not the COVID police - but - you said:

"The main concern I had mentioned to this family member when I called was that I'm worried about how this fall and winter might be if the covid19 numbers spike again. My boyfriend and I had already discussed the possibility that *if* things get worse, I might need to be separate from him since I'll be babysitting grandchildren who might be in contact with people of unknown infection status."

"Between his age and other risk factors it would be really scary if he caught this virus. I myself am also considered to be high risk because I take immune suppressing medication/infusions, but I am younger. Plus it seems like it has been found that other issues such as high blood pressure or diabetes put people at higher risk than immunocompromised. We are all still learning things."

Being immunocompromised as well as having other health concerns such as diabetes and hypertension all puts someone at greater risk re COVID-19. I wouldn't underestimate the risk of having lower immunity.

When it comes to interacting with others, even close friends and relatives, including your BF, that is higher risk too as you are also basically in contact with every person that each of your close ones have been as well. You take a lot on trust - that everyone is observing the prevention techniques - when you interact with anyone else at all.


You continued: "When I mentioned my concern along with my current loneliness, I did not hear any comforting words. Instead I was basically told that my anxiety and depression is my own doing because I am choosing to "cower in fear over a virus that you won't even catch as long as you just wash your hands, don't touch your face, and wear mask in public.. and wear one when you babysit if you are really THAT afraid of whoever they might be in contact with..".

"And "There is absolutely NOTHING that will change this winter except that you just have to be extra careful with hygiene. No reason to not visit your boyfriend. Just wash your hands after babysitting, then go over and visit him with a mask on. That's it! Nothing else will be different.. and you can even hold his hand.. but wear gloves if you are SO scared. What could POSSIBLY be any different than how it's always been? You two can talk and watch a movie together, laugh, or even share a meal! Tell me WHAT ON EARTH would be different..?"

I would suggest trying to find someone else to talk to - even if it's a non-emergency help line of some sort or a group you can join (likely virtually if that's possible for you) where you can exchange concerns and ideas and information with people who are more on your wavelength.

I would stop talking things over with anyone who isn't helpful or, indeed, makes you feel even worse. It can be a habit, talking to someone familiar or who we've always been in contact with, but if they are not being understanding and/or are making us feel worse we are inviting self-inflicted injuries onto ourselves. I know because I have done it too. What a difference it makes for someone to say "I understand" or "I have felt like that too" or other affirming and kind words. That is not enabling, as some may say, but rather it's soothing and helps you find common ground. Then you can bounce ideas off them or can focus on their words and ideas rather than on having to defend yourself from someone who is not understanding or helpful in the ways you need at any given time. It's not like you want an echo chamber but rather that you don't need to be made to feel defensive or to spend time trying to explain yourself to someone who isn't somewhat getting what your concerns are. There is only so much explaining you can or should be able to do and then the exchange just isn't helpful to you. It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You have to do a lot of hammering to get rid of the square shape and even then it may not fit well into the round hole and the effort will be tiring and irksome for you. Better to just find a round peg or a square hole! A match, iow.

I wouldn't tell an unsympathetic-seeming family member how I am feeling emotionally. It sounds in your case that that just gives them something else to criticize you over.

Taking precautions against a deadly virus is not "cowering in fear". Rather, you are being wise in trying to protect yourself and others. Is buckling up your seatbelt before you drive down the street done out of fear or because you know it's a safety feature that could save your life? (As well as being the law).

I'm glad your family member is acknowledging that the prevention measures in the face of COVID are useful. Washing hands is indeed a great tool, and one of the main ones, to promote good hygiene and hopefully prevent us from infection. There still seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about mask-wearing (again, it's good that said family member mentions using masks). The purpose of the mask is to prevent an infected person from transmitting the virus to others. It is not being hailed as a preventive measure for ourselves but rather to protect other people. I know it seems confusing to a lot of people - why doesn't it work both ways? I hear conflicting comments about it - I listen hard to ensure I understand but it can be confusing. But here where I live in Canada they strongly promote the wearing of masks as "a kindness" to others so we don't unknowingly infect others if we are infected ourselves but are unaware of it (there are large numbers of asymptomatic "carriers" apparently, who don't know they have the virus but they can pass it along to others - mask-wearing cuts down on that possibility).

All this means that even if you wear a mask when your grandchildren visit you could still become infected if one of them has the virus.

You'll have to weigh the potential of this in view of your age and potential risks as well as those to your bf.

You'd have to know how large their "circle" is and trust that everyone within it is practising the safety measures. Tough call to make.

The paramount safety measure, our public health officer repeatedly reminds us, is social distancing - the 6-ft rule. This works OK if most people buy into it. As they don't, trying to distance but also wearing a mask and the hygiene practices all go together to keep each of us as safe as possible until we learn more and, of course, there's an effective vaccine. It can be impossible to distance when it comes to visiting with grandchildren (or any kids - I was calling on one neighbour family but despite my detailed explanations I can't get the kids to stay away - they crowd around and giggle when I say move away - so I had to stop going over for a while).

As for "laughing" and "sharing a meal", as your family member suggested, those are two activities that can be very high risk (think droplet spray). We have been strongly advised to carefully consider who we share meals with. Again, you have to trust that they are as careful with their contacts, and hygiene, as you are. It would be weird to wear a mask while with your bf but if you are both in contact with others it may be the way it has to be for a while.

A close contact of mine just told me he has workmates who have recently been diagnosed. The thing is everywhere and yes, it's scary. I would be more concerned about people who are *not* "scared". An abundance of caution in this unprecedented situation seems like the way to go. If one is informed and updated, consistently implements the safety measures, uses common sense and treats others as they hope to be treated that is the best we can each do, and hope that others do also.

Just because someone else ridicules you, your fears, your feelings or choices doesn't mean they're right and you're wrong. In fact, very likely the opposite. I'd say, in the case of CV, if someone doesn't have a reasonable concern about it and a wish to stop its spread by conforming to recommendations they're the ones in the wrong, not those who listen to scientists and medical experts.

Think of all your positive attributes and all your life's accomplishments. Then pat yourself on the back for everything you've contributed to the lives of others and to your community.

Any negative comments others have that drag you down you can hopefully brush away and then ignore. Don't allow them to influence how you view yourself.

Find an affirming group, online at this time I'd guess, one that gives you pleasure and recreation if possible, and soak up a good dose of positivity.

Good luck with all the important decisions you are facing about how to proceed.

So, in terms of what has changed - quite a lot actually.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can relate to a lot of what you say,
> stillrecovering. Maybe we will all be still
> recovering always, from whatever it is that has
> hurt and stymied us in life. Different
> circumstances for each of us but common themes.
> Somehow, at some point, we each have to figure out
> how to proceed on our own terms and not pay
> over-much attention to what others say or what we
> think they think. Tall order - it takes time and
> thought and discipline to change how we react. I
> have found it helps me to keep firmly in mind what
> my own opinions and needs are and, while I may
> choose to listen to others I eventually make
> whatever I feel is the best choice for myself.
> This works out better than going along to get
> along and ending up in an ill-fitting suit on the
> advice of or at the wishes of others.
>
> On another note - I'm not the COVID police - but -
> you said:
>
> "The main concern I had mentioned to this family
> member when I called was that I'm worried about
> how this fall and winter might be if the covid19
> numbers spike again. My boyfriend and I had
> already discussed the possibility that *if* things
> get worse, I might need to be separate from him
> since I'll be babysitting grandchildren who might
> be in contact with people of unknown infection
> status."
>
> "Between his age and other risk factors it would
> be really scary if he caught this virus. I myself
> am also considered to be high risk because I take
> immune suppressing medication/infusions, but I am
> younger. Plus it seems like it has been found that
> other issues such as high blood pressure or
> diabetes put people at higher risk than
> immunocompromised. We are all still learning
> things."
>
> Being immunocompromised as well as having other
> health concerns such as diabetes and hypertension
> all puts someone at greater risk re COVID-19. I
> wouldn't underestimate the risk of having lower
> immunity.
>
> When it comes to interacting with others, even
> close friends and relatives, including your BF,
> that is higher risk too as you are also basically
> in contact with every person that each of your
> close ones have been as well. You take a lot on
> trust - that everyone is observing the prevention
> techniques - when you interact with anyone else at
> all.
>
>
> You continued: "When I mentioned my concern along
> with my current loneliness, I did not hear any
> comforting words. Instead I was basically told
> that my anxiety and depression is my own doing
> because I am choosing to "cower in fear over a
> virus that you won't even catch as long as you
> just wash your hands, don't touch your face, and
> wear mask in public.. and wear one when you
> babysit if you are really THAT afraid of whoever
> they might be in contact with..".
>
> "And "There is absolutely NOTHING that will change
> this winter except that you just have to be extra
> careful with hygiene. No reason to not visit your
> boyfriend. Just wash your hands after babysitting,
> then go over and visit him with a mask on. That's
> it! Nothing else will be different.. and you can
> even hold his hand.. but wear gloves if you are SO
> scared. What could POSSIBLY be any different than
> how it's always been? You two can talk and watch a
> movie together, laugh, or even share a meal! Tell
> me WHAT ON EARTH would be different..?"
>
> I would suggest trying to find someone else to
> talk to - even if it's a non-emergency help line
> of some sort or a group you can join (likely
> virtually if that's possible for you) where you
> can exchange concerns and ideas and information
> with people who are more on your wavelength.
>
> I would stop talking things over with anyone who
> isn't helpful or, indeed, makes you feel even
> worse. It can be a habit, talking to someone
> familiar or who we've always been in contact with,
> but if they are not being understanding and/or are
> making us feel worse we are inviting
> self-inflicted injuries onto ourselves. I know
> because I have done it too. What a difference it
> makes for someone to say "I understand" or "I have
> felt like that too" or other affirming and kind
> words. That is not enabling, as some may say, but
> rather it's soothing and helps you find common
> ground. Then you can bounce ideas off them or can
> focus on their words and ideas rather than on
> having to defend yourself from someone who is not
> understanding or helpful in the ways you need at
> any given time. It's not like you want an echo
> chamber but rather that you don't need to be made
> to feel defensive or to spend time trying to
> explain yourself to someone who isn't somewhat
> getting what your concerns are. There is only so
> much explaining you can or should be able to do
> and then the exchange just isn't helpful to you.
> It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round
> hole. You have to do a lot of hammering to get rid
> of the square shape and even then it may not fit
> well into the round hole and the effort will be
> tiring and irksome for you. Better to just find a
> round peg or a square hole! A match, iow.
>
> I wouldn't tell an unsympathetic-seeming family
> member how I am feeling emotionally. It sounds in
> your case that that just gives them something else
> to criticize you over.
>
> Taking precautions against a deadly virus is not
> "cowering in fear". Rather, you are being wise in
> trying to protect yourself and others. Is buckling
> up your seatbelt before you drive down the street
> done out of fear or because you know it's a safety
> feature that could save your life? (As well as
> being the law).
>
> I'm glad your family member is acknowledging that
> the prevention measures in the face of COVID are
> useful. Washing hands is indeed a great tool, and
> one of the main ones, to promote good hygiene and
> hopefully prevent us from infection. There still
> seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about
> mask-wearing (again, it's good that said family
> member mentions using masks). The purpose of the
> mask is to prevent an infected person from
> transmitting the virus to others. It is not being
> hailed as a preventive measure for ourselves but
> rather to protect other people. I know it seems
> confusing to a lot of people - why doesn't it work
> both ways? I hear conflicting comments about it -
> I listen hard to ensure I understand but it can be
> confusing. But here where I live in Canada they
> strongly promote the wearing of masks as "a
> kindness" to others so we don't unknowingly infect
> others if we are infected ourselves but are
> unaware of it (there are large numbers of
> asymptomatic "carriers" apparently, who don't know
> they have the virus but they can pass it along to
> others - mask-wearing cuts down on that
> possibility).
>
> All this means that even if you wear a mask when
> your grandchildren visit you could still become
> infected if one of them has the virus.
>
> You'll have to weigh the potential of this in view
> of your age and potential risks as well as those
> to your bf.
>
> You'd have to know how large their "circle" is and
> trust that everyone within it is practising the
> safety measures. Tough call to make.
>
> The paramount safety measure, our public health
> officer repeatedly reminds us, is social
> distancing - the 6-ft rule. This works OK if most
> people buy into it. As they don't, trying to
> distance but also wearing a mask and the hygiene
> practices all go together to keep each of us as
> safe as possible until we learn more and, of
> course, there's an effective vaccine. It can be
> impossible to distance when it comes to visiting
> with grandchildren (or any kids - I was calling on
> one neighbour family but despite my detailed
> explanations I can't get the kids to stay away -
> they crowd around and giggle when I say move away
> - so I had to stop going over for a while).
>
> As for "laughing" and "sharing a meal", as your
> family member suggested, those are two activities
> that can be very high risk (think droplet spray).
> We have been strongly advised to carefully
> consider who we share meals with. Again, you have
> to trust that they are as careful with their
> contacts, and hygiene, as you are. It would be
> weird to wear a mask while with your bf but if you
> are both in contact with others it may be the way
> it has to be for a while.
>
> A close contact of mine just told me he has
> workmates who have recently been diagnosed. The
> thing is everywhere and yes, it's scary. I would
> be more concerned about people who are *not*
> "scared". An abundance of caution in this
> unprecedented situation seems like the way to go.
> If one is informed and updated, consistently
> implements the safety measures, uses common sense
> and treats others as they hope to be treated that
> is the best we can each do, and hope that others
> do also.
>
> Just because someone else ridicules you, your
> fears, your feelings or choices doesn't mean
> they're right and you're wrong. In fact, very
> likely the opposite. I'd say, in the case of CV,
> if someone doesn't have a reasonable concern about
> it and a wish to stop its spread by conforming to
> recommendations they're the ones in the wrong, not
> those who listen to scientists and medical
> experts.
>
> Think of all your positive attributes and all your
> life's accomplishments. Then pat yourself on the
> back for everything you've contributed to the
> lives of others and to your community.
>
> Any negative comments others have that drag you
> down you can hopefully brush away and then ignore.
> Don't allow them to influence how you view
> yourself.
>
> Find an affirming group, online at this time I'd
> guess, one that gives you pleasure and recreation
> if possible, and soak up a good dose of
> positivity.
>
> Good luck with all the important decisions you are
> facing about how to proceed.
>
> So, in terms of what has changed - quite a lot
> actually.


Nightingale I agree with all of that 100%. In order to fully understand the epidemiology+transmission of this novel coronavirus I took an online course through Johns Hopkins university on contact tracing. A potential "contact" (someone who might be or become infected" includes a person who has spent more than 15 minutes in close proximity with someone else who is infected.
If both people are wearing masks then that cuts down the likelihood of transmission by a lot.

If only the uninfected person wears a mask they have much less protection and are more likely to catch it (although less so than if neither of them wore face coverings).

This is part of why I am so angry and stunned at the blase' attitude, especially from someone who is not dumb. When I had a chance to interject with some facts, she agreed that I would be potentially putting myself at risk (and thus anyone else I have contact with, including my boyfriend). But then followed up that acknowledgement with religious stuff about how "we all die of something anyway and none of us get out of here alive"... and that I would be better off dead than living in isolation or avoiding contact with loved ones for the next 18 months to 2 years.. or however long this pandemic will go on.

That was the worst part. Because it was said within the context of saying "good mothers are willing to sacrifice themselves".

And to be honest, yes, I would accept a potential (although probably small) risk of death in order to help my daughter who will soon be trapped at home with 3 kids ages 3, one and a half, and newborn. Especially since she struggles with depression in general and has experienced post-partum depression.
I am not going to abandon her.
But at the same time it IS A BIG DEAL to make the choice to temporarily separate from my significant other who I have been in a close relationship with for a decade.

This relative who downplayed my legitimate fears regarding the virus, while simultaneously creating problems and magnifying my worries about how this is going to impact us (telling me that my relationship WILL fall apart).. is someone who I used to trust.

Years ago she was someone I had talked to a lot and was one of the few family members who actually validated the fact that I had experienced severe trauma when I was a child. That meant the world to me. In later years after my divorce, she was critical of my dating experiences because she was convinced that my "choices" (sins) were the reason I stayed single for so many years.

I used to be able to overlook those criticisms because I still valued her emotional support for other issues (PTSD, etc). And although the phone conversations decreased over the last decade, we'd still had some nice ones.

Up until the last time we talked, she had never had anything negative to say about my current partner. In fact she has always said how happy she is for us and that it seems like he is very good for me.
But now I have to wonder how genuine that is.
To suddenly go from "wow he sure has been good for you!" to suggesting that maybe he is using the pandemic as a way to avoid being with me, was shocking and cruel. As was trying to confirm my (unspoken) fears about the relationship drifting apart if we stayed separate for too long.

My boyfriend pointed out the manipulation and he doubts that she ever was truly happy for us. He believes that she is one of several people in my life (past and present) who have put on a good show of seeming like they care.. but in reality I'm just someone they can enjoy lording over and pontificating to.
Without going into graphic detail (not sure which words are allowed here) he uses the term "Mental M......" a lot. In other words, I have had people in my life who I thought were caring but they use me as a way to make themselves feel good. They are convinced they have the answers and that I am just some sort of tragic train wreck who keeps making bad decisions.

I thought I had finally gained some respect from at least a couple or maybe a few family members over the last several years. But maybe not. I now wonder if they relish or gloat over my unhappiness, even though they claim to care about me so much and "just want you to be happy".
If this person truly wishes happiness for me then her words (recently and sometimes in the past) have not showed that.

Right now I am heartbroken and also very scared.. as I am realizing that my actual support system is almost nonexistent except for my boyfriend (and now my adult children on some level.. although they are not the ones I should be turning to for help). This is terrifying and I have never felt so lonely.

I cannot begin to imagine what you are going through. :(

I'm so sorry people who you care about are being jerks. They are not worthy of you. Your feelings are entirely valid. It sucks that other people have such little self-esteem that they have to hurt others to feel good about themselves. :(

Try to give yourself permission NOT to care and NOT to give rent-free space in your mind to people who don't deserve your goodness.

You are a wonderful person and you will get through this. Hang in there!

-- Hugz

Hugz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I cannot begin to imagine what you are going
> through. :(
>
> I'm so sorry people who you care about are being
> jerks. They are not worthy of you. Your feelings
> are entirely valid. It sucks that other people
> have such little self-esteem that they have to
> hurt others to feel good about themselves. :(
>
> Try to give yourself permission NOT to care and
> NOT to give rent-free space in your mind to people
> who don't deserve your goodness.
>
> You are a wonderful person and you will get
> through this. Hang in there!
>
> -- Hugz


Thank you. I am trying. There is a lifetime of criticism, low self esteem and other baggage to continue working through. Your point about others having self esteem issues behind their harsh words is something for me to keep in mind.

First off, after we get this covid crap in hand, you get married if you want to! Buy a dress, rings, flowers. A mile long veil if that blows your skirt up. Have a reception if you want. Hire a photographer and a marching band. Have who you want officiate. You just don't do the legal papers. Seniors and others do it all the time for the same reasons it is an issue for you. And the legal papers are YOUR business. If you want someone to know, tell them. If not, it's not their damn business, you don't owe them any explanations. Maintaining separate houses long term just might work for you. With my DH working from home that option is looking damn good to me! CL2 is a great example of doing what works for YOU. (She rocks)

As to the relative, I 100% agree with your guy. That conversation was really all about them. I am sure it made them feel sooo good about themselves. You don't have to cut off all communication but I sure would not go to them for any kind of support. Covid is no joke and those that are taking it lightly are fools. Nothing you can do about fools but stay away from them and continue to be responsible. You are going to be responsible and step up and help your daughter. And boy is she going to need it! Get all the rest you can now because you will not be getting much for a long time :) Try to think of ways you can keep connected with your guy. Maybe watch movies together while you are on zoom or something? Read the same book and discuss it? Find things you both enjoy that you can do together, apart. With this covid crap you gotta get creative :). It's hard. It sucks. It is not helped by the ineptitude and denial by parts of our government.

Check in often and let us know how things are going. We ain't much but we are here and we care :)

Thank you Susan. It is really nice to actually have people normalize the way I'm living instead of casting judgement (or feeling pity as if it's some kind of tragic thing that I can't get married), making sarcastic remarks, or outright saying they don't believe the "excuses" are even real.

And no, I definitely will not ever again be reaching out to certain people for support. I know that these days we're being told that if the anxiety and depression gets to be too overwhelming we should talk to people in our lives.. but this forum definitely counts as "people"!

I like your suggestions for staying connected while apart too. Lately he and I have both been immersed in projects (and he works from early a.m. until crashing at the end of the day) but I'm sure there will be a time at some point in the near future when we can try some of those ideas :)