My ExMo Father died recently I just realized I have no other human I could have an honest conversation with about this.
https://youtu.be/IztL_m3pd70
I am also recently married and got in first argument over this topic,
And we are both atheist, socialist, tree hugging, vegan peace loving Buddhist/Jew hippies, like Brett Weinstein. I said I hoped she'you'd think you could find common ground with the guy.
Nope. Zero. Fuck that guy. He went on Fox News!
She slept on the couch for 3 hrs and woke me up yelling, over that conversation amd me taking the scientists position, which Coleman Hughes agrees with.
I made the cardinal sin of agreeing with an evolutionary biologist I respect and she despises.
I either say,"Fuck that asshole!" Or stay in the box with the isotope and a timer.
Right now I am not "Woke" enough.
If I am not Anti-Racist, I am a piece of shit.
I agree with Coleman Hughes, 99% of the time and Brett Weinstein 90% of the time. That's not ok with my wife.
Its crazy, but the guy is right about intelligence. But I can't talk about it or I stay in this fucking box!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2020 12:49AM by schrodingerscat.

The sum of intelligence on this planet is finite.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The sum of intelligence on this planet is finite.

True, but not evenly distributed.
By every measure and test I have ever seen, Askanashhi jews were the most intelligent group, followed by Asians, whites, Blacks, Native American, Hispanic (often because English is not their 1st language).
So the question is, why?
Is it biology?
Or culture?
Nature or
Nurture?
Charles Murray says Nature.
Brett Weinstein says Nurture.
I think its both. In almost equal parts.
And we are inherently racist, which affects wealth distribution, and well being, especially now during pandemic

I hate it when a perfectly good joke is ruined.

How are you measuring intelligence?

Beth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How are you measuring intelligence?

Average intelligence quotient:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence#Proposed_genetic_explanations

Only about 3% of the U.S. population is of Ashkenazi Jewish descent, but 27% of United States Nobel prize winners in the 20th century.

Standardized test Scores.
https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/10/29/sat-scores-are-gaps-remain-significant-among-racial-and-ethnic-groups

Which probably has more to do with household income and education level of your parents, than race or ethnicity.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/sat-to-give-students-%E2%80%98adversity-score%E2%80%99-to-capture-social-and-economic-background.117285/

Considering the net worth of black households is 10% of net worth of white households, on average, that has everything to do with systemic racism and educational achievement, IMHO.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/fiscal-fact/median-value-wealth-race-ff03112019

Joseph Smith said “The glory of God is intelligence” so I wonder what he was using as a measuring stick. I guess anyone who believed his half-baked blather was intelligent.

I find the Weinstein-Peterson clique entertaining, but I think they drink too much of their own Kool Aid.

I couldn't pay attention to the video because I was staring at the ferret on dude's head.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph Smith said “The glory of God is
> intelligence” so I wonder what he was using as a
> measuring stick. I guess anyone who believed his
> half-baked blather was intelligent.
>
> I find the Weinstein-Peterson clique entertaining,
> but I think they drink too much of their own Kool
> Aid.

Joseph's Myth was an idiot who believed in 6ft Quakers on the moon

I have thought about this a lot for almost my entire life. My present conclusions:

Prenatal input (excellent nutrition; low or no alcohol/drugs; a safe environment without fear) is very important (with the mother's ingestion of "fatty fish"/fish oils having an outsized positive effect on the intelligence potentials of the baby growing within).

Some components of "intelligence" (of all kinds; I am including artistic and musical creativity here, plus mathematical-type intelligence) seem to have an inherited component (two "genius"-level parents, or two actively creative parents, will often have an "above-average" child)....but put a baby of "average" intelligence into an intellectually-rich environment of interesting intellectual challenges and safety, and that baby will frequently (though not always) rise well beyond initial expectations.

An intellectually rich environment can be important: interesting and intellectually challenging things going on in the household, which ideally includes cats and dogs and other pets interacting with the baby, and adults interacting (a lot!) with the baby and actively using steadily more elevated vocabulary and concepts, plus lots of music of different kinds (including classical) in the atmosphere, plus lots of books and age-appropriate puzzles, plus the family just having lots of intellectual fun as they live their daily lives, will support and develop intellectual growth in infants and children growing up.

The norms of the community the child is born into are important. If the community the child is a part of actively supports (and expects!) intellectual/creative growth, the child will--at that critical developmental time--frequently develop beyond initial expectations which were largely based on the intelligence level of the child's maternal and paternal lines.

On the other hand, if a child is born into a family or community which does NOT support and expect constant intellectual growth, and especially if conformity is an accepted community or family priority, the child (during its lifetime) is very likely to under-perform whatever that child's initial possibilities may have been.

I think the answer is: whatever a baby is intellectually born with can then be affected by good nutrition or the lack of good nutrition, negative environmental hazards, negative emotional hazards (pervasive fear, etc.), and the quality of the child's environment (both within the family, and within the community the child is growing up in).

So the "hardwiring" is important, but is often affected by, or overridden by, the "software" (or lack of software) in the child's environment.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2020 04:31PM by Tevai.

Yes.

I agree

Some people term an extraordinary ability to recall facts, events & circumstances intelligence

others think it's more about logical processing of information.

So what about someone Brilliant (like Millard Fuller (co-founder of Habitat) or Neil De Grass Dyson or Einstein or Marilyn vos Savant or Madam Curie or Tesla, Carl Sagan)

who are Mormons? <none of the above are/were LDS to my knowledge>

Can someone recall facts, use logic effectively, and still be religious? Perhaps in a cultural way, thinking in terms of community, families, etc.

Schrodie, I’m glad to see you back.

From my aerial view of many children and extended family, and being a twin, I see intelligence as inherited. But, that’s just my unscientific yet observational take on it.

Very sorry that you lost your dad.

But I trust you'll agree that there's no sense to it, no plan that can be counted on!



...Nature v. Nurture...

> ...Nature v. Nurture...

Thank you. Sweet music.

Yah. I thought this thread was going to be about AI.

kathleen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Schrodie, I’m glad to see you back.
>
> From my aerial view of many children and extended
> family, and being a twin, I see intelligence as
> inherited. But, that’s just my unscientific yet
> observational take on it.
>
> Very sorry that you lost your dad.


Thanks Kathleen.
As far as Dad goes, he had suffered from a degenerative neurological disease for years, so it came as a bit of a relief actually, even though I miss the old wise man. He was a great man.
As far as intelligence goes, I think there's clear correlation between parents income/educational level and achievement on standardized tests. So instead of race, it probably has more to do with class and culture, from what I've seen/gathered.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/sat-to-give-students-%E2%80%98adversity-score%E2%80%99-to-capture-social-and-economic-background.117285/

Considering the net worth of black households is 10% of net worth of white households, on average, that has everything to do with systemic racism and educational achievement, IMHO.

https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/fiscal-fact/median-value-wealth-race-ff03112019



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2020 09:46PM by schrodingerscat.

Oh, no, I didn’t mean race was the determining factor. I apologize for anything in my post that implied that.

But, please let me expand on what I really meant just based on observations of my own family. It seems to me that if a child resembles a parent in the face, they “resemble” them in similar domains intellectually and behaviorally. Gender doesn’t matter.

I’m bright in some domains and my children’s father has entirely different skills. Those who resemble him physically have the same traits, skills and demeanor. (And the same goofy laugh.) Likewise for those who resemble me in the face.

The expression “spittin’ image” is a shibboleth of the original expression, “spirit and image.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2020 10:09PM by kathleen.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as intelligence goes, I think there's clear
> correlation between parents income/educational
> level and achievement on standardized tests.

I think this is generally true, but the exceptions are also important to keep in mind.

Specifically: Jews and [many] Asians. Both groups have long histories of immigrating poor (and very possibly "undereducated"--plus, in many cases, nonfluent in English), yet their kids get accepted by top-ranked universities/colleges, and frequently go into the most sought after, and academically difficult, college majors: mathematics, the hard sciences, medicine, law, etc.--and then, at least for a significant minority, later transitioning over to elected offices.

> ....it probably has more to do with
> class and culture, from what I've seen/gathered.

The American notion(s) of "class," in large part, don't seem to apply to the Jews and Asian groups I am talking about in this thread. Not that they don't have to learn the behaviors (beginning with the "three T's": Teeth (sparkling white, clean, and optimally spaced), Table manners, and Thank you notes), because they DO need to learn these things in order to fit in to American upper middle class (and above) standards, but these are behaviors the offspring learn mostly "outside" (like learning a "foreign language"), rather than picking them up from their families and their "home" communities.

Culture, on the other hand, is key (in my opinion). Within either Jewish or Asian cultures (most of the Asian cultures, anyway), the highest of academic success is, basically, compulsory for all offspring who possess above-average academic abilities.


> Considering the net worth of black households is
> 10% of net worth of white households, on average,
> that has everything to do with systemic racism and
> educational achievement, IMHO.

One of the best educational resources we possess in the United States is our Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs), which do an outstanding job of educating students who come in with a background of fewer home resources than is the American overall norm. Although the socio-economic stats for their average admitted students may begin at the "poorer" end of the spectrum, the HBCUs transform those students into academic achievers who then, after graduation, reenter general society fully prepared to accomplish just as much as white offspring who came from much loftier economic and social backgrounds. To a very large extent, the HBCUs are able to make up the deficits, so their graduates, in the "real world," can compete as social and academic American equals.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2020 10:46PM by Tevai.

That's exciting!

Intelligence? I don't have a lot to say about it, only that my daughter says that it is my fault that I've found myself in the midst of 3 intelligent men who have strong opinions and totally different than each other, and they drive me crazy.

My "husband," my son, and my boyfriend. My boyfriend is a chemist and is extremely intelligent and, although my husband didn't get a 4-year degree, I'd say he is more intelligent than my boyfriend (but don't tell the boyfriend that). My son, now he is too intelligent.

From being around a bunch of intelligent men at Thiokol, let alone the 3 above, I'd say it is hard wired more than anything.

Oh for god's sake...

What was wrong with the older, wiser way of saying this? You know, "nature/nurture"?

(Too many people, way too many, literalize "hardware/software". That is a problem, a problem worthy of avoiding the metaphor altogether and reviving the older way of speaking.)

With the rise of Brain/Maxine interfaces beyond the smartphone, it will become ever more hardware and software. Nature/nurture will likely become less the factors they were.

Machine. Autocorrect got confused by my capitalization I think.

Elon Musk, who warned us 6 yrs ago that AI was our greatest existential threat and would bring an end to civilization in 5 years,

https://www.cnbc.com/2014/11/17/elon-musks-deleted-message-five-years-until-dangerous-ai.html

now says he has a way to link your brain to skynet. Any takers?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tech-neuralink-musk-idUSKBN25O2EG

Of course this is the same guy who wants volunteers to go colonize Mars, which is the only planet occupied soley by a robot, to get away from the existential threat of robots.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2020 12:57PM by schrodingerscat.

Yep, that's Musk.

I'm not interested in being the earliest adopter of the tech. But within the first 10% who do. Not necessarily Musk's implementation either.

Both. It is inherited, grown in, adaptive and learned.