In my research of Sandra Tanner's history of the church, Dan Vogel, and Shannon Montez, it has become clear to me, that the church will never be "destroyed" unless the GAs and prophet all together come out with a "the jig is up, thanks for playing" message. Which they won't do because of the legal liability and the mass of lawsuits they'll have to answer for.

Members won't listen to us because we're "anti" and the information we have to share with them is "anti". You could get important information in front of as many TBM eyes as possible and the criticism of the church would be instantly dismissed as "anti" simply for the fact that it didn't come through the church approved funnel of information.

The GAs have had admissions before that it's a fraud. The changes in the temple ceremony that pre-1990 people were unswayed by(if you left because it changed, post-1990 folks don't understand why). They put once anti information on their website in the gospel topic essays. Even though it was a good thing, the 1978 change of the Priesthood Ban was an indirect admission of an error. Indirect admissions and changes.

It needs to be a direct and open admission for the whole thing to come down. Because yeah, if you learn about these changes, that itself can pull individuals away(like me). But I know plenty of others who think that this is what continual revelation is for, even if it points to God being morally inconsistent and open to change. But open and direct is something we'll never get, for how many people would be able to sue them for it.

Just coming away from discussion with a TBM and realizing the "beating my head against a wall" futility of it. Once you get to "I believe..." it's no longer about what is true or false, or what makes sense or not.

Even if the GAs admitted it, the devout members would just rationalize it away (they are speaking as men, God works in mysterious ways, blah, blah).

The GAs could kill people on 5th Ave and the cult-like devoted people would still stay in the church. It's like that.

Yeah, but would they vote for him in the next election?

They would all raise their hands to sustain the prophet in the next conference and ignore all the "warts" because, well, cultish devotion and cherry picking.

When I look at how difficult it was for me to leave the church behind, I can't imagine ten to fifteen million people spontaneously choosing to do the same thing, no matter what happens. If religion is an opiate of the masses, then mormonismn is just one modern version of the same drug. Either way, the people really think they need the mind-numbing drug. Try to get fifteen million haroin addicts to suddenly walk away from their addiction. Each character in mormonism (Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Nephi, others) are like Disney characters. It doesn't matter whether they are real or not. People want to believe in them because it makes them feel good amidst life's challenges.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2020 11:56AM by azsteve.

That's very true. I once made a thread here about all the red flags I ignored. When I first went to the temple, I DID think to myself, "This feels cult-y..." Yet I kept going, kept believing because I wanted it to be true.

Something pissed me off sooooo bad the other day when it clicked for me.

• Joseph Smith Sr. had a dream that later showed up as Lehi's well-known dream. (I found this out 4 years before I decided to leave).

• Alvin and Hyrum Smith were Joseph's two elder brothers. According to a theory put forth by Sandra Tanner, when the angel Moroni told Joseph to go back to the fields and tell his father about the previous night's angellic visit, he was hesitant because he was worried he wouldn't be believed. The theory goes that telling his family about the first vision experience, there was likely some disbelief. Possibly from two...murmuring and mocking elder brothers? (Like, as in, Laman and Lemuel?)

• Joseph Smith had a younger brother named Sam....just like Nephi. And Nephi is essentially the first hero prophet we meet in the BoM.

Like, when folks say the BoM is Joseph Smith's Holy Bible fanfiction...it's not a joke, lol.

yes, you're right about the red flags. I went back to mormonism after a childhood devoid of Mormonism, although I had been baptized at age eight. So at age fourteen, there I was learning about this church that my mother had me baptized in to, but that neither parent believed nor practiced. Flag 1.) Everyone in testimony meeting claimed to "know" the church is true. I can't even be sure that what I see with my eyes is true, much less what I can't see being true (faith-yes, knowledge-not, Flag 2.) The penalties in the pre-1990 endowment ceremony were more than just creepy. I knew they were wrong and I never fully accepted them even when I believed everything else. They were like a time bomb that went off years later. 3.) The mormon concept of priesthood authority is fundamentally flawed and harmful. I should have resigned long before I did.

"I should have resigned long before I did" has got to be the mantra of RFM.

I'm old enough to have heard the bad stuff while sitting in church. Polyandry--14 year old flaming sword victim--poorly timed deadly outcome treck vicitms. It was all there if I would have paid attention to the unease I felt. Crimony, Blacks and the priesthood didn't ever feel okay no matter what I was told or told myself.

I was my own Mormon apologist.

Years wasted.

Dorothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "I should have resigned long before I did" has got
> to be the mantra of RFM.


That's true. The fear they successfully instilled in me kept me in longer than I should have been there. It wasn't until I lost my fears about leaving that I was finally able to leave.

I think that fear would play a big part in keeping the members in, even if such admissions were made.

Over ten million have *already* left the church behind. Best estimates are that at most, 5 million mormons are active, including spouses & kids. A healthy percentage of those 5 million are nonbelievers who attend only to avoid divorce and/or keep parents happy, and who would gladly bail given half a chance.

Until you formally resign from the church, you're still drinking the coolaid. You may go back because you haven't really decided to do otherwise. Given a big enough life crisis and back you'll go. Leaving the church is like a divorce. Until the paperwork is completed, you have commitments and contingency plans.

Nice theory, but I guarantee you, in writing, that you are incorrect.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nice theory, but I guarantee you, in writing, that
> you are incorrect.


If you're referring to yourself, I'm challenging you to send the letter tomorrow. If you have any hesitation about doing it, the only reason there can be is that the "nice theory" is true after all.

You and azsteve are projecting. Truly getting past the church means complete disinterest, not a determination to exit on LDS terms.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You and azsteve are projecting. Truly getting
> past the church means complete disinterest, not a
> determination to exit on LDS terms.


Staying on the membership record is the definition of "LDS Terms". Members truly lost and gone forever, names wiped from the records, visibly declining numbers, is how churches watch themselves die. You're certainly not past it if you haven't even left. Indifference comes after breaking the connection.

It's like claiming you're out of a marriage but haven't bothered with divorce. Just fooling yourself.

No, I am not fooling myself. You are acting as if there is only one way to handle these matters and--guess what--it's your way. I guess that's your hearing the still small voice.

But in the real world people walk away from religions all the time. Do they "check out" formally? Do you insist on getting confirmation when you cancel your Columbia Record club membership?

No one dictates how I or anyone else leaves Mormonism. They don't set the terms for us nor do you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/2020 01:30AM by Lot's Wife.

Some religions respect your right to walk away. The Morons don't respect your right to walk away, unless you force them to respect it by creating a paper trail.

So what?

They can demand whatever they want. They have no authority over me or Lot or our family and I need no one's respect.

Amen.

Apparently in your mind, resignation is the One True Way out of the church. I've had enough One True Way talk for several lifetimes. Besides, the act of resignation does not prevent anyone from going back, so your logic fails on that account.

-----

"It's like claiming you're out of a marriage but haven't bothered with divorce."

No, it's not like that at all. A marriage involves legal obligations that have to be addressed and resolved during the divorce process. On the other hand, being a baptized and confirmed member of the church confers no such legally binding obligations. Your analogy fails also.

RavenQuoth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> elderolddog Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Nice theory, but I guarantee you, in writing,
> that
> > you are incorrect.
>
>
> If you're referring to yourself, I'm challenging
> you to send the letter tomorrow. If you have any
> hesitation about doing it, the only reason there
> can be is that the "nice theory" is true after
> all.

I have repeatedly defended my determination not to send The Letter: I have one TBM child. She will dead-dunk my firm, full exmo ass exactly one year after my demise and then praise herself the following Fast Sunday.

People are always complaining about being dead-dunked... Don't resign! Most of us never "joined"!! Did anyone here sign an application?

Resignation from the church is a civil process that the church only recognizes because Kirkland-McCostco told them they had to. Everything they ever put into your file is still there. If you rejoin, do they rebaptize? Do you have to be re-sealed? And there is never any mention of resignation during April conjobference's statistical analysis of the preceding year.


"I don't want them visiting me!"

Well, I would enjoy being visited! I love testifying as to the untruthfulness of just about everything having to do with mormonism! I especially love preaching about the absurdity of the temple experience, and the surveys used to try to appease TR holders.

If you aren't able to comprehend my point of view, I'll just have to learn to live with it...

And your daughter's drooling idiocy now affects you in precisely which way? It's her problem. She can go do herself. Your fawning respect for her glaring stupidity doesn't reflect well on you.

Fawning respect?

And here I thought you might be interesting.

Take your point of view and sing it sweet lullabies. And I'll do the same to mine. Your point of view is wasted on me, just as mine is wasted on you.

The important thing is that neither one of us will be attending tithing settlement.

Wow. You've lost your credibility with light speed.

RavenQuoth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your fawning respect for her
> glaring stupidity doesn't reflect well on you.

Your complete lack of respect for people and the love of their member children shows me you are no better than LDS leaders who would want their members to have nothing to do with disbelieving family. IT is the same sentiment just inverted away from a cult. It is shunning plain and simple.

I don’t have time to write clever sarcasm or intricate logic so I’ll just be blunt. Raven, you’re being a dick.

Thank you for sharing this view. It never occurred to me that I might get dead dunked by my RM younger brother, if ever I resigned. Is there no way around that? Can I put out some sort of legal paperwork that extends after I die?

I think I might like a missionary visit as well. Could they excommunicate or disfellowship me if I send missionaries home with existential weeping?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Well, I would enjoy being visited!


I resigned because my sincerest wish was simply to be left alone by them, and I have been.

But if you enjoy receiving visits, then yeah, don't bother resigning. It doesn't really mean anything either way, from a legal standpoint.

Whether or not one resigns has to be for their own personal reasons. Neither decision is right or wrong. It's what's best for the individual.

...can they excommunicate you after you're dead? Can they proxy-baptize you after that? Lol.

thegoodman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...can they excommunicate you after you're dead?

I don't think so. Apparently the dead can covenant to thinks like not having sex with who they weren't married to in life (do they marry in Spirit Prison?) but as far as communion with Mormons, the dead can't be kicked out proxy or no. Hell is an afterlife of Mormons where they did your work so you are stuck dealing with them forever.

There was a time recently when I offered to give a talk in SM. The subject was a proposed scenario of the lost years of Jesus.This was a report by Nicolas Notovich of an experience he had while recovering from a broken leg in a monastery in the Himalayas. The bishop's first counselor went pale in the face and then the bishop informed me that no subject could be spoken of in SM unless it was approved of by Salt Lake City.
MIND CLOSED!!!
END OF SUBJECT!!!
Needless to say I did not give that talk!
I have Notovich's book.
It is a reasonable report.
My question is Why can it not be considered?
The answer? It is outside the current paradigm.
ALSO MIND CONTROL MIND CONTROL MIND CONTROL



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2020 12:28PM by thedesertrat1.

There were investigators on my mission who didn't even know they were already baptized members because their parents had joined the church, had the family baptized, and then never gone back after the missionaries moved away. Happens all the time.

Another woman I Visit Taught was baptized by her Mormon father but raised by her Catholic mother. We visited her just because she liked having visitors. I could tell she had no interest in Mormonism as a religion whatsoever. But she was still on the books so we kept visiting.

Just because a child of eight is joined to a religion by his/her parents doesn't mean they are legally bound to it. I'd like to see a court case where this stupid idea is put to rest. Nobody should have to formally leave a religion they never joined. And even if they did choose to join as an adult it makes more sense to let a person leave by walking away, like most churches do, than by requiring documents. It's merely a club for heaven's sake. If you don't pay your dues and you don't attend your meetings you are dropped as a member in any other club.

Only cults hold you hostage.