[Adult Language]

Well, I guess you can, but then you're an ***hole.

I had a heated argument with my brother a couple years back -- not chief, this one is the second youngest. I sent the family a meme in a family text chat by Uchtdorf I saved from FB, the one about how apostates just forget why they even bothered being Mormon in the first place. I said something about how Uchtdorf has no idea what he's talking about, and I immediately got piled on. My father chimed in that since Uchtdorf is a prophet, he basically knows everything, and my dad reasserted that through my behavior, my combativeness and unwillingness to go to church, I've basically forgotten everything, making Uchtdorf right. I threw it in my dad's face by saying that his critical thinking skills suck and I reminded him of a time he got conned out of over ten thousand dollars by scam artist. That riled everyone up. Everyone started leaving the chat in disgust... at me. But my second youngest brother said something cheeky about "go sort yourself out" before he left the chat.

Leaving chats can feel like slamming a door in someone's face, but unless you block me I can keep sending you texts, and if you respond to me later you didn't slam the door or drop a mic or anything. I was seething, he had unofficially volunteered to take my tongue lashing on behalf of the whole family, and he took it all because he'd never heard me talk like that before. I called him a coward. I said the only reason no one wants to talk to me about the church is because they know I know more than them and so they're afraid. I've always known more than them. They came to me whenever they needed scriptures explained or needed science reconciled with the gospel, and now they just pretend like I hit my head and got a possessed by the devil accidentally. They treat me like I buggered out of the gospel business cuz I'd rather be a wanker, and they don't give me the time of day to challenge their bullshit because they know I'd fucking destroy them.

I told my brother (who is married) that if Joseph Smith was alive today and he demanded my sister-in-law to bed her, he would just give her to him without a fight. He admitted he didn't know much about that stuff, "but..." and as he started to wind up into testimony mode, I stopped him by saying something to the tune that his incuriosity comes because he was always the stupidest brother, not much into books or school or anything. He was hurt, and he accused me of saying that I didn't care about him or anyone and all of this was just so that I don't have feel bad about myself... as if I feel bad about myself by default for leaving the church. Maybe I look and sound and act like I feel bad about myself, but it's actually a mixture of complicated emotions about my time in Mormonism, its aftereffects on me how it always intertwined with my family relationships and made them complicated too, and these feelings are further exacerbated by extreme frustration with these people who won't help me work through this shit with them by talking to them about it like we used to be able to talk about anything. In fact, I don't know that I ever had a deep relationship with this brother, but I always wanted one.

That's not what I said though. I said I don't want anything from him, and he has nothing to offer me. There were some things I wanted from the family early on in my faith transition, things that are hard to articulate, but I'm clearly not going to get them so to hell with the whole lot of you.

And that was it...

until I texted back the next day and said I said some things that I didn't mean and that I regret saying. He offered me lunch, and we tried talking through that horrible exchange. I wonder if the conversation we had didn't make it sound like his accusation about me was right -- that I'm just a sinner who is miserable because he can't be happy in sin -- but what I was trying to do was open up to him about what the church has done to me psychologically, the pain I've been through, the effort I put into it, and the epiphanies I had that lead me to atheism, since he's not going to listen to the material case against the church's claims.

The status quo has a miraculous way of restoring itself in this family. It's weird. I can't stand it. I want things to feel different around them, but they're always trying to keep things in that house feeling like it always has since we were kids. It's hell, but I keep going back over for family dinner. I might take a seven week break citing COVID as my excuse. I might grab a pillow and start hitting the same brother with it trying to get a reaction after a whole day of everyone smiling through their teeth at me and pretending like nothing is different. I can't stand the phoniness when we all know what's different. I hit him with that pillow telling him to have a genuine emotional reaction to me, reminding him of the terrible things I said to him, and he said, "but we made up... you'll figure it out." Meaning, of course, that he and everybody else are waiting for me to come to my senses and come back to the light and in the meantime they think that they can kill me with kindness to hasten the transition, which is why no one has said hardly a thing to me about the church or called me out on my occasional jerkwad behavior for two or three years now. But I'll be a jerk, or just annoying, because I know they're playing games with me, and I can't stand it. I don't know what I keep agreeing to be around them, but I do. It's the food I guess. I wanted relationships with them like we used to have, but these half fake relationships they're offering me instead -- I don't care for them. I guess instead of our relationships progressing towards anything, they'll just be damned in place as they are, and I will go over for dinner and silently resent everyone for all the big things and all the little things that bother me about them as they take notes on me and my life and use whatever they see or don't see as evidence that they must never let their guards down around me, even while they pretend to include me in the family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2020 01:55AM by Tevai.

First off, agreed. "You can leave the church but you just can't leave it alone" is one of the stupidest, harmful ideas TBMs push about ex-Mormons. They have this idea in their head that the church is this powerful, truth and divine experience and yet if you decide to leave, it must be an extremely easy thing to abandon. Probably because they think you're leaving because you love sinning and so you're attacking the church out of guilt.

I am so sorry you had this painful experience with people you love and care about. Those are hard things to come to grips with. The decision to either try to help them, to try to save them from this cult(which either way, they'll experience pain over; you cannot save them from the pain) or to stay quiet, increasing this feeling of isolation and distance from them. It takes strength not to completely lose respect for your family during this process.

Those private epiphanies and logical connections you made when you found out the truth, sadly, you cannot GIVE that to anyone else.

It seems to me that they are trying to accommodate to your new status and it feels fake to you. So you react to that new fake relationship and want to lash out.

I have to ask, what do you want from them? Are they not allowed to chose the church, while you chose atheism? Can you have a relationship that is based on a truce?

***Swearing ahead.***

I agree with Devoted Exmo that it may be best to call a truce. IMO if you are in a family chat, and proselytizing or religious lecturing comes up, just exit the chat.

However, I don't like that your brother called you (specifically you) a sinner. That is NOT okay and is an insult. I would take that opportunity to remind him that Joseph Smith was the sinner. Tell him that Joseph Smith f****d teenage girls, and that he sent his followers on missions and f****d their wives when they were gone. Say that he f****d more than 30 women! I would use that specific and very blunt word. Then I would tell him that you think the name, "Joseph F***ing Smith" is an appropriate name for him, and that if he ever has the nerve to call YOU a sinner again, you would be happy to remind him of his "prophet's" foibles.

I wouldn't start any trouble, but neither would I take crap from a family member.

They’re allowed to be whatever they want to be, but I’m lashing out for convoluted reasons that I don’t think I even understand. They know so much about me, because I’ve freely shared all sorts of things with them in the interest of transparency to prove that I’m sincere and emotionally genuine in all of my soul-searching and truth-seeking — I never dreamed when I was compromising my dignity and my privacy that I would one day not want anything to do with the church. Knowing that they can and that they are going use what I’ve said about my sins and my mental health to discredit me to themselves and to their friends and not give me a chance to even explain where I’m coming from is a knife in my back. It doesn’t matter to me that they’re nice to my face or that they keep inviting me over for family functions. I would have rather they disowned me, because this post-coming-out reality is worse than the ones I had envisioned where they just wanted nothing to do with me anymore. This “we’re going to keep you at arm’s length but still try to make you feel included in a weird contradictory way” makes me feel so fucking awful.

For some perspective:

IRL many people--at some point in their lives, and particularly often after a major personal health challenge, etc.--find that their "whole life" has been wasted by following family and community expectations, possibly due to a specific religious path, possibly because of an unfortunate choice of marriage partner, etc.

This is actually a fairly common problem in the general population, and it often surfaces as people get older and gain some individual independence about their own inner life and the world at large.

"Getting over it" can be a rest-of-that-person's-lifetime project, so I agree that "just telling them to get over it" is futile, certainly uncaring and unempathetic, and possibly willfully (on their part) "blind."

Finding your personal authentic way, healing the past hurts, transcending your past life wounds and experiences....these are all big life challenges, and there is no promise of ultimate success.

Basically, you need to acknowledge to yourself that you are in a presently unsupportive situation, and then find ways to "support yourself": new thoughts, new activities, new friends and possibly new workmates, new aspirations, and new achievements.

At least some of these new-to-you experiences are likely to NOT work out as you wished they would, but this is a universal experience for all of us in all of our lives.

When these kinds of disappointment happen, you accept the reality you now must deal with and then you, as smoothly as is possible, move on to the next best possibility on your mental/emotional "list."

At some point, you will find the NEW "best life" (or whatever sectors are most important to you)--and then whatever "they" say, it won't matter, because you will have already left "them" mentally and emotionally behind.

You just gotta keep walking forward, step by step, because this is the only way to get to the place you actually most (at least in that future time) want to be.

Agree 100%.

With age people understand there is a difference between the mind and the brain. I am referring to Strickers book about the Double Bind. The ideas in the mind does not stand for a life time in the real world. Everybody goes through this in nature.

Yes, I'm an asshole.

I think your being too unrealistic.

Your family is going to stay loyal to the church. When you harp on the faults of the church, they are going to respond to feeling attacked. I get it that you figured it out, but they haven't.

The best thing that you can do is to take the higher road.

Be happy. Be positive and live your life to the fullest.

That’s the thing about Plato’s cave. Everyone in the cave can only see shadows on the wall. If you leave the cave and find the truth, good for you. But if you go back in the cave to explain how things really are, you will be deemed mad. That’s the cost of leaving the cave.

Or the cost of eating the forbidden fruit. You have to leave the garden. And wear clothes.

My Mormon family is very unhappy about what I've written about my life with them. But the thing is, these are my memories, and they are all I have after being shunned and disowned by the others. I don't care what others say, my life belongs to me, and I'll write about it any way I please. I have been told to "get over it," by a younger sibling who has no business telling me what to do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2020 11:26PM by donbagley.

"You can't waste someone's whole life and just tell them to get over it."

That sure is true.

Cold-Dodger:
I don’t think you will succeed in convincing them that you haven’t forgotten why you were a mormon.
I don’t think you will succeed in convincing them that you didn’t leave because you enjoy being a sinner or that you are happy.

It is part of their belief apparently. They are told by Uchtdorf, who is their master or elder or whatever they want to call themselves.

Do you have other family members that have quit? Brothers, sisters, cousins, uncles, …?

“his incuriosity comes because he was always the stupidest brother, not much into books or school or anything. He was hurt”

==1. That’s a terrible thing to say. I recommend that you call him up and take it back.

2. Under that kind of condition, no bridge can be established between you and your brother.
There needs to be a certain level of respect between you two.

3. When you criticize a person religion, some of them feel that you are attacking them. When you have such a person in your family, avoid the religion talk.

4. I recommend doing your best to amend your relationships. It is important to have family members, even if they are not perfect.
You might need them in the future. They might need you.

5. I also understand your need for sharing. It is obvious that you feel hurt and that you wish things were different. It is obvious because you had a lot to say.
Don’t forget #4.

Don't miss opportunity to help out with their pain even though you might be in pain. Believe it or not, they might just see it.

How you resource that kind of a response is maybe noteworthy, it is mostly a lot easier when someone shows you the same treatment.

Hi Cold-Dodger, I feel your pain and frustration with your family. You are young, and so your 'whole life' hasn't been wasted...yet. I wish I could assure you that, with time, your family relationships will get better, unfortunately, that is not likely to happen. As long as they "choose" to be mormons they will always think of you as the dysfunctional family member. The thing is, the cult brainwashing goes so deep, they truly do not realize that they have a choice to be anything different than what they are. Thus, the superficial relationships cluttered with the wreckage of unsupportive and painful encounters will continue unless you make the decision to leave the dysfunctional relationships behind.

Everyone here has given you good advice on how to move forward with respect to your family. Take this advice to heart and let it transform your life now, while you are young, while you have the opportunity to take your own path and experience life on your own terms.

The big sin in life is to be boring.

The most boring people I know are those who had the nice smooth ride.

What we went through as Mormons is valuable. Arguably not the case if you got out closer to the end of life but as I got out early, I see the value of having been raised that way.

Have compassion for your family. That is all you have to offer. I gained my father's respect, deep respect, after a lifetime of just being me, being successful, helping my family whenever I could and on and on---don't want to self aggrandize here so I'll stop with the accolades, haha. But at the end my father told me how proud he was of me "as a person" and he was still ultra Mormon and I was still ultra not. Meant everything.

Don't look for the quick fix. Don't look for the quick fix.

Only you can waste your life. Mormonism is just something that happened to you. I worked in my youth for the same kind of company I have now and the valuable lesson I learned there was how NOT to to things. It was not a waste to have worked at a C Grade company.

+Done & Done:
“What we went through as Mormons is valuable. Arguably not the case if you got out closer to the end of life but as I got out early, I see the value of having been raised that way.”

==I envy you because you got to see what it was like to be a mormon.
I was never a mormon. I was a christian and got out early.

All that stuff is called life experience. We all have different experiences and unfortunately, I can’t plug my brain to yours and download your memories. I wish I could.

“I could and on and on---don't want to self aggrandize here so I'll stop with the accolades, haha.”

==Personally, I think you are fabulous.

~~~~iceman9090

Thank you. Being where I am right now that meant everything.

If anyone knows a person who is taking care of everything and everybody--and there are a lot these days, those kind of words add up to a million times more than the just sum of the letters.

"He admitted he didn't know much about that stuff, "but..." and as he started to wind up into testimony mode, I stopped him by saying something to the tune that his incuriosity comes because he was always the stupidest brother, not much into books or school or anything."

You can't discount someone's whole life and just tell them to get over it.

I can though, because I’ve had all of their experiences. They haven’t had any of mine. I’ve cared about all the things they care about more deeply that sometimes I think they ever did, and I thought I owed them an explanation for why I stopped, so I tried sharing, but they’ve been standoffish and defensive with me ever since while trying to “find the real reason” why I’m like this when I’m standing right here eager to share, eager to talk about anything. I’ve never been treated like this, and I’m afraid I don’t know how to cope with this but to be angry and bite back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2020 12:23PM by Cold-Dodger.

Doesn’t help my case, but what’s the hope that that’s redeemable at this point? When do they ever take any responsibility for the fucked up shit they do and say? Why’s the onus always on me to be the morally upright one because everybody’s watching? I’m sick of this shit.

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
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> I can though, because I’ve had all of their
> experiences. They haven’t had any of mine.

So you've had this experience?

"...not much into books or school or anything."

It is a clumsy person to claim to have walked in many people's shoes.

Our feet are different sizes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2020 02:58PM by Elder Berry.

I know I’m being an asshole.

Cold-Dodger Wrote:
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> I know I’m being an asshole.

Yes and no not at all. Mormonism is in almost assured and maybe severe pain at this point. To purse your lips in listening to any friend or family member in and during these times is difficult or possibly maybe improbable.

When I'm forever grateful for being out, I have very little trouble being content and hopefully somewhat helpful.

If you're in pain, you're in pain and I get that. It's probably impossible to reboot and come back to the same situation and circumstances without the same troubling pain in tow.

Try and stay only in control of what you're in sole control of, succeed in ignoring the rest setting no expectations and you are giving yourself a best head start.

>>I know I'm being an asshole.

Then don't be surprised when someone is an asshole right back to you. Who is going to be the bigger person to put a stop to this?

Honestly, if someone started testifying to me, I would just tell them that is what *they* believe and has nothing to do with me. I might also ask them why they are being so disrespectful to someone who believes differently than them. Ask, "Is it the habit of the people of *your* church to be disrespectful to those who disagree with you?"

Calling it "your church" might create some emotional distance for you.

Great suggestion. This is what I do. Your church. Your ward. Your bishop. Your church friends.

Not my stuff.

and THAT is exactly what Gordon BS Hinckley was trying to do with all MORmONS when Hinckley issued this quote that Hinckley stole from someone else. .....which is exactly why it pisses me off so much


https://www.pinterest.com/pin/557109416389314812/?nic_v2=1amadUmrb

See the paragraph toward the last where Gordon BS Hinckley talks about some MORmON who did 20,000 temple endowments.......TALK ABOUT A WASTE OF TIME/ OF A LIFE !!!!!!
https://www.thechurchnews.com/archives/2007-04-07/president-gordon-b-hinckley-deeply-grateful-81831

This hits me hard. I have trouble forgetting this since I first read it.

I guess there a many many many ways to spend a life. This one is odious to me.

I disowned my mother on a family chat and then she threatened me via text and I disowned her again. Good times.

Anyways. I am deciding whether I should cut off all my family permanently as we speak. I am going to. They have hated me secretly and tried to destroy me for most of my life. The family by itself was a narcissistic cult and damaged me greatly because they used every tactic in the book to keep me a hostage basically.