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Posted by: madeguy ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 10:45AM

We’re told that God does not perform miracles needlessly, and that ‘it is a wicked and an adulterous generation that seeks for a sign.’

When Joseph’s family and friends asked for a glimpse of the plates that he’d claimed to have uncovered, he told them God would strike dead any person who glimpsed them. So, presumably, they remained in a box wrapped in a tablecloth to prevent casualties. Martin Harris, Mr. gullible, testified to hefting the wrapped box, which he was sure contained gold plates, but his fear would not permit him to open it and look inside. Neither did anyone else try to get a peek at the plates; they were all too afraid of being struck dead. Joseph, feeling the pressure, promised that witnesses would be allowed to see them at a later date, at which time they reported seeing them in a vision, not physically.

According to the Book of Mormon, these plates were written upon by many prophets including Nephi, Jacob, Mosiah, Alma, Helaman, Mormon, and Moroni. We’ve been taught they were written upon and physically handed down by prophets over a span of a thousand years (600 BC — 1400 AD), so why forbid latter-day prophets and other believers to see them?

Early Christian documents like the Dead Sea scrolls and Nag Hammadi texts were recently brought to light, and are on display for all to see. Many scholars have handled them in the process of translation. These are genuine, original Christian writings, most dating back to the first century AD. No one has been struck dead for seeing or handling them.

Wouldn’t the physical existence of gold plates stand as a glorious affirmation of the restoration of the church of Jesus Christ in the latter-days? And wouldn’t their existence be just the fuel needed to light the afterburners of missionary work that could swiftly gather the Lord’s elect from the four corners of the Earth? You would think so. So why the ban?

Allowing believers to physically see the plates would have required no effort on God’s part. No miracle or sign would have been needed, just let people see them. But preventing people from seeing the plates by striking them dead would require divine intervention by which God would counter his own efforts, namely, killing the very people who are attempting to bring about the restoration his true church.

So, why the ban on seeing the plates? The answer of course is obvious: The plates were imaginary. It’s obvious when statements of the ‘witnesses’ are investigated:

Martin Harris testified to Anthony Metcalf of Elk Horn Idaho, that “I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state… While praying, I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state, I saw the angel and the plates.” (Martin Harris interview by Anthony Metcalf). (italics mine)
Warren Parrish, a seventy, wrote, “Martin Harris, one of the subscribing witnesses, has come out at last, and says he never saw the plates, from which the book purports to have been translated, except in a vision, and he further says that any man who has says he has seen them in any other way is a liar, Joseph [Smith] not excepted.” (Warren Parrish to E. Holmes, 11 Aug. 1838, The Evangelist) (italics mine)

In this letter by high priest Stephen Burnett to Lyman Johnson: “I have reflected long and deliberately upon the history of this church, and weighed the evidence for and against it—loath to give it up—but when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David, and also that the eight witnesses never saw them, and hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundation was sapped and the entire superstructure fell in a heap of ruins… I was followed by W. Parish, Luke Johnson and John Boynton, all of whom concurred with me. After we were done speaking, Martin Harris arose and said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon, for he knew it was true, and said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or handkerchief over them, but he never saw them only as he saw a city through a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, if it had not been picked out of him, but should have let it pass as it was…’. (Stephen Burnett to Lyman Johnson, 15 Apr. 1838, Joseph Smith Letterbook, 2:64-66) (italics mine)

Finally, Brigham Young comments on how the plates were returned: “…Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates… When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls…” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 19, p.36-38)

Will these plates ever be found? Occam’s razor states that all things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. Since there has never been evidence for the physical existence of any of these plates, the answer requiring the least effort is that the plates existed only in the minds of those who ‘saw’ them.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 11:20AM

well said! Thanks for bringing us back to reality.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 11:43AM

Who's your daddy?

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Posted by: Dallin Ox ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 12:03PM

But after he got the plates, he supposedly ran through the woods with a bunch of baddies in hot pursuit. I was taught that he hid the plates in a hollow log and/or a barrel of beans so they wouldn't be found and stolen by the bad guys.

Why couldn't he have just whirled around and flashed the plates like Medusa's head in order to slay the bad guys and end the chase? And why didn't I think of that plot hole in my YM classes?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 12:28PM

Dallin Ox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why couldn't he have just whirled around and
> flashed the plates like Medusa's head in order to
> slay the bad guys and end the chase? And why
> didn't I think of that plot hole in my YM classes?

That would have been practical and not spiritual. No baddies are allowed to see anything sacred.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 01:44PM

That's right! It would have given them an unfair advantage!

They would know, by their very deaths, that JoJu WAS a prophet and they would have immediately repented so that when their Work Was Done, they would have passed into Paradise.

Totally unfair to the rest of us!

See how good ghawd is?

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 02:28PM

Yeah, they weren't the Laman and Lemuel level baddies who could interact with an angel and still beat up their younger brother.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 02:22PM

If there were any gold plates (clue: there weren't ;-), they would have weighed a hell of a lot - there are people out there who have calculated it (I think on Richard Packham's site and probably on MormonThink too) and we're talking Bulgarian-weightlifter range, so Joju wouldn't have been able to move them, let alone flash them at his "foes" (totally imaginary? Hmm nice mushrooms in them groves ;-). Had his pursuers been female, however, he might have flashed something at them...

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Posted by: JoeSmith666 ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 03:19PM

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If there were any gold plates (clue: there weren't
> ;-), they would have weighed a hell of a lot -
> there are people out there who have calculated it
> (I think on Richard Packham's site and probably on
> MormonThink too) and we're talking
> Bulgarian-weightlifter range, so Joju wouldn't
> have been able to move them, let alone flash them
> at his "foes" (totally imaginary? Hmm nice
> mushrooms in them groves ;-). Had his pursuers
> been female, however, he might have flashed
> something at them...

Some years back, while still in we did a "challenge" after Priesthood. Brought a car battery to class, a battery with a blanket wrapped around it. Not a really big one - but it was heavy. Then we had "gold plate races" to see who could do 50 yards the fastest. Most couldn't do it without dropping the batter multiple times.

So - sure... Joe ran with them, fought off three different muggers and all the rest.

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Posted by: bradley ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 10:48PM

“Hmm nice mushrooms in them groves“

No amount of Joseph Smith tripping balls could make the church true.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: November 06, 2020 10:14AM

The bad guy story is laughable, since it reminds me of the old action movie trope of the lone hero up against a room of baddies--because each baddy attacks him one at a time instead of swarming him!
If 3 guys were intent on taking JS down, why not just attack him like a band of outlaws instead of spreading themselves out.
"OK, Curly, you attack him first, and I'll hide 200 yards up the trail--if he gets past you I'll jump him. And Larry, you you go down there, and if he knocks me out you can gave a shot at him. Now spread out..."

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Posted by: Dallin Ox ( )
Date: November 06, 2020 03:47PM

Oh yes, the bad guys attacking one at a time. This is how JS is said to have described the death of Moroni (3rd or 4th-hand account) by "Indians with swords":

"At a meeting at Spanish Fork, Utah Co., in the winter of 1896, Brother Higginson stated in my presence that Thomas B. Marsh told him that the Prophet Joseph Smith told him (Thomas B. Marsh, he being then President of the Twelve), that he became very anxious to know something of the fate of Moroni, and in answer to prayer the Lord gave Joseph a vision, in which appeared a wild country and on the scene was Moroni after whom were six Indians in pursuit; he stopped and one of the Indians stepped forward and measured swords with him. Moroni smote him and he fell dead; another Indian advanced and contended with him; this Indian also fell by his sword; a third Indian then stepped forth and met the same fate; a fourth afterwards contended with him, but in the struggle with the fourth, Moroni, being exhausted, was killed. Thus ended the life of Moroni."

https://rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-fourth-nephi-through-moroni-zion-destruction/moroni-last-nephite-prophets

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 01:08PM

funny that ChurchCo took the stance of presenting all this foolishness is presented as 'Faith Promoting'...

sick but appealing to gullible believers.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 01:35PM

As I always say: the plates were not supernatural to begin with, but most TBM's are not aware of the "returning plates to the cave" fantasy story; they hear that that "the angel took them *back* to heaven", which makes no sense because they were made by men from natural materials.
And of course, yes, if God wanted to allow people to "witness" the plates, all he had to do was remove his bad mojo death ray rule from them, because if they were made and written on by men they had no kryptonite effect--it would have to be a god-imposed *death penalty* for looking at them.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 02:26PM

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it would have to be
> a god-imposed *death penalty* for looking at them.

A very good point... He was clearly very proud of his bad mojo death ray and wanted to try it out.

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Posted by: JoeSmith666 ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 03:16PM

Decades ago as a missionary we taught Gold Plates, Urim & thummim and that they were taken back to heaven after the translation.

Flannel board characters to show and tell in our "discussions".

People could understand "Gold Plates" but I don't think a magic rock in a hat would go over with anyone smart enough to tell Shiz from Shinola. Sure glad I didn't have to push that crap.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 03:21PM

When JS was a child, he had to have some infected bone removed from his leg. He walked with a limp the rest of his life.
Isn't it amazing though, that in spite of this, he was able to run, leaping over logs and rocks and carrying 200 pounds at the same time?
It's so wonderful that it almost makes me think he was fibbin'.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: November 06, 2020 10:17AM

Internet win for the day because of the word "fibbin' " :-)

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: November 06, 2020 11:01AM


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Posted by: nli ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 04:22PM

What a difference between two very sacred scripture originals:

NO ONE was allowed to see the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated.

Yet EVERYBODY was allowed to see the papyri from which the Book of Abraham was translated. In fact, Joe's mom made a little money off them by charging 25¢ to let visitors see "the signature of Father Abraham." (see Josiah Quincy's account in his book "Figures of the Past.")

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Posted by: blindguy ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 04:37PM

Another betrayal of the golden plates story. If Joseph Smith was running with the plates as he claimed he was, then anybody within six feet of him would have heard the clanking metal of the plates as they rubbed and pounded against each other. This would have been doubly true as he was trying to run with a lifelong limp with plates that were very heavy. Any "baddie" trying to steal them would have had little problem--they just had to follow the sound!

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: November 05, 2020 10:08PM

So....Moroni had to hide plates but they were returned to a cave.

He couldn't just take them from the cave and hand them to Joseph?

And....his father and him abridged plates that they could have let Joseph peruse.

On top of it....Moroni who obviously mastered English could have just ghost written a much better book, in English.

With all the gold available, Moroni could have financed a publishing house, made a fortune.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: November 06, 2020 03:26PM

The plates was tooken up!

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: November 07, 2020 02:31AM

What an @$$ hole that MORmON Jesus is. Striking dead any person......EXCEPT GOOD OLD Joseph Smith...... who was sincerely interested in seeing the golden tablets as any sincere person successfully managed to obtain a glimpse of the wonderous golden Plates. ......however Joseph SMith had to try to keep the golden plates away from bad people who might steal them (??????) if not prevented from doing so. Yah ! that makes perfucked sense!!! to MORmONS !!!


Joseph smith had great success in hiding the wonderous golden tablets.....because they NEVER really existed!!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxJ7gKIymVo

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