I've had several people bring up this claim recently, and I've seen it at least twice on RFM. You know who you are. It's a subtopic under "Covid-19 is all a hoax/no worse than the flu/falsely declared as cause of death" family of conspiracy theories.

I heard it enough times that I decided to do a little investigating to find out where this bit of nonsense is coming from. Learned a few interesting facts in the process.

First, let's establish a baseline. How many people die each year? What is the normal statistical variation from year to year? Is the death number increasing, decreasing, or static? How many people die from the flu each year? How widely does that vary? Where are numbers available, and how long before they finalize?

I didn't really know precise answers to any of those questions.

Year- US deaths - increase from previous year
2009..,2,437,163
2010..,2,468,435...31,272
2011...2,515,458...47,023
2012...2,543,279...27,821
2013...2,596,993...53,714
2014...2,626,418...29,425
2015...2,712,630...86,212
2016...2,744,248...31,618
2017...2,823,503...69,255
2018...2,839,205...25,702
2019...2,854,838...15,633

Source: wonder.cdc.gov , Underlying cause of death, 1999-2019. I can't give a precise link to this data because you have to click an "I agree" to their rules on use of the data before they let you in. The rules are things like you can't use the data to try and find out a specific person's identity.

the default report is for all deaths, 2018. You go through their blizzard of choices, find the year selector, and select the range of years you want. There are many many ways to slice and dice the data - by year, age, ethnicity, state, region, cause of death, yada yada.

OK, so the number of deaths increases every year, consistent with a rising population. It is just below 3 million right now.
The increase over the last decade was about 43,000 per year, range of 16K to 86K. That is actually a pretty narrow window of variation from year to year. Most of the variation depends on how bad the flu season was in a given winter.

BTW, the 2019 numbers were released just a week or two ago - Dec 2020.


OK, so how many flu deaths are there per year? Not as many as I would have thought. The CDC is very cautious about finalizing flu deaths. their table lists the last three years as still estimated numbers. Note also that the window of uncertainty on the number of deaths is pretty wide.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

The table is a bit complicated, so I'll only list the core number of deaths per year (thanks to Lot's Wife for typing them into another recent thread!)
https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2349379,2350473#msg-2350473

Influenza deaths, US
2010-2011 deaths: 37,000
2011-2012 deaths: 12,000
2013-2014 deaths: 38,000
2014-2015 deaths: 51,000
2015-2016 deaths: 23,000
2016-2017 deaths: 38,000
2017-2018 deaths: 61,000
2018-2019 deaths: 34,157

You'll note that the flu does not make a huge difference in the overall death total, and it is pretty much consistent with the yearly variations listed in the first table of overall deaths. Flu season tends to peak in January, so whether the season was early, late or normal affects which year will most feel the impact. One, two, or zero peak flu seasons can occur in a single given year, depending on the timing.


OK, so there's the baselines and past data points.

So what, if anything was wrong with the memes reporting that the death toll this year was the same as 2019?

I saw a report from Sarah Sanders dated Sept 24. Reuters investigated one from November. The one Reuters investigated had four errors, three of which they mention in their article, one that they missed.

Reuters found that the data was from a CDC report on Covid, which started with the week ending Feb 1, 2020, so January data was missing. Leaving out a month would of course lower the average death toll per month, and a projected death toll for the year.

the second error they mentioned was no allowance was made for normal reporting lag. CDC says there can be significant increases in reported deaths for up to 8 weeks, though the biggest changes happen in the first 2 weeks. If the state Vital Statistics office is very busy, or hospitals/doctors, or if autopsies need to be done, all can delay issuance of death certificates.

The third error was that the Reuters-investigated meme used an incorrect number for the number of deaths in 2019, that was too high by 45,000. I don't know where the author got the number, but the official number of 2.84 million was just released in the last week or two. The one the meme used was 2.9 million. That of course makes it easier to claim 2020 was not higher than 2019, since they were using a 2019 number that was too high to start with. I do not know where the 2.9 million number came from, but it was wrong.

The error Reuters does not mention is that the authors of the memes did a linear projection of the average death toll for the period, when the actual death toll over the course of the year is not linear. It peaks in January, and has a long, low period from mid spring through mid fall, when it starts heading up again to the next January peak.

This would not make a lot of difference on the meme created in mid November, but it would on the one from September. A straight line projection from September would miss all the increase in deaths for the last quarter of the year.

To recap, data was missing in January, perhaps deliberate, perhaps misreading of CDC reports on covid deaths. Either way, it was missing. Data was missing in the last month of each report because of normal reporting lag time. The 2019 estimated death count was too high. None of these errors were taken into account when calculating the projected death toll for 2020. All would produce an unrealistically low projected death count for 2020 compared to 2019.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-chart-us-death-figures-2020/fact-check-chart-does-not-present-accurate-us-deaths-figure-for-2020-idUSKBN2872MV

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/11/facebook-posts/chart-comparing-2020-us-death-toll-previous-years-/

https://apnews.com/article/us-coronavirus-deaths-top-3-million-e2bc856b6ec45563b84ee2e87ae8d5e7


Is there a good place to see the "excess deaths" caused by covid-19?

Yes, CDC reports weekly on excess deaths, which are deaths above and beyond what would be expected for that week in the year. As noted in my first table, the expected deaths are quite stable from year to year, with much of what little variation there is (other than simple population growth) coming from flu season.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

This is a rather long web page. About halfway down, there is a bar graph of the last 4 years, where the bars are weekly death counts. You can mouse over the bars and get detail stats for each week. The red line is the cutoff for excess deaths. It allows a little wiggle room for normal statistical variation, before they start considering deaths "excess deaths". Note that the 2018 flu peak was the only period where there were ANY excess deaths in the last 4 years, until late March, 2020, at which point there was a serious spike.

Note that the last few bars of that graph are also going to suffer from reporting lag, and are likely to increase over the next few weeks.

The final numbers for 2020 will likely take a year to be released, perhaps longer. Current estimates are that 2020 deaths will jump by 350,000 over 2019. That completely blows the doors off the growth numbers for the previous 10 years.

Covid is an actual disease. There are real people dying, and it is not old people who were about to die anyway. These are "excess deaths", above and beyond what is normal.

While this is not true for all of 2020, right now, Covid-19 is the number 1 cause of death in the US, barely beating out both heart disease and cancer.



I doubt if I killed that zombie meme, but I am pretty sure it is badly bruised. :-/

Thank you for that.

Too bad facts and analysis are not appreciated when they are not supportive of one's cause. And by "not appreciated" I mean dismissed and ignored.

Accckk.. alternative facts, heh..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2020 08:09PM by josephssmmyth.

No, those are the actual facts. If you would like to dispute them, go ahead and produce your alternative facts. We'll see whether BoJ or you are better at data analysis.

I rest my case.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2351604,2351824#msg-2351824

"This is the deadliest year in U.S. history, with deaths expected to top 3 million for the first time — due mainly to the coronavirus pandemic.

Final mortality data for this year will not be available for months. But preliminary numbers suggest that the United States is on track to see more than 3.2 million deaths this year, or at least 400,000 more than in 2019.

U.S. deaths increase most years, so some annual rise in fatalities is expected. But the 2020 numbers amount to a jump of about 15%, and could go higher once all the deaths from this month are counted."

"COVID-19 has killed more than 318,000 Americans and counting. Before it came along, there was reason to be hopeful about U.S. death trends"


"The CDC counted 2,854,838 U.S. deaths last year, or nearly 16,000 more than 2018. That's fairly good news: Deaths usually rise by about 20,000 to 50,000 each year, mainly due to the nation's aging, and growing, population."

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2351604
> ,2351824#msg-2351824
>
> "This is the deadliest year in U.S. history, with
> deaths expected to top 3 million for the first
> time — due mainly to the coronavirus pandemic.
>
> Final mortality data for this year will not be
> available for months. But preliminary numbers
> suggest that the United States is on track to see
> more than 3.2 million deaths this year, or at
> least 400,000 more than in 2019.
>
> U.S. deaths increase most years, so some annual
> rise in fatalities is expected. But the 2020
> numbers amount to a jump of about 15%, and could
> go higher once all the deaths from this month are
> counted."
>
> "COVID-19 has killed more than 318,000 Americans
> and counting. Before it came along, there was
> reason to be hopeful about U.S. death trends"
>
>
> "The CDC counted 2,854,838 U.S. deaths last year,
> or nearly 16,000 more than 2018. That's fairly
> good news: Deaths usually rise by about 20,000 to
> 50,000 each year, mainly due to the nation's
> aging, and growing, population."

San Francisco has three times as many non covid deaths as covid fatalities.
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/fee.org/articles/san-francisco-sees-more-overdose-deaths-than-covid-deaths-in-2020/amp

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/calmatters.org/commentary/2019/11/overdose-deaths/

https://wellbeingtrust.org/news/annual-deaths-due-to-alcohol-drugs-or-suicide-exceeded-150000-according-to-the-most-recent-data-and-could-get-worse-due-to-covid-19/

Some analysts saw huge differences above previously released forecasts.

Your second source is from 2019 and thus has nothing to do with covid in any way.

Your third source is talking about results from 2018 and also has nothing to do with covid.

The first source is from a libertarian economist, but that's as may be. I suspect that evry city has more deaths from non-covid causes than from covid. That does not refute the argument made above or BoJ's argument.
If the estiamtes are right, 3.2 million Americans will die this year. Just under 400,000 of those will die of covid. The point is that total deaths will be ~400,000 more than last year, which is an increase several times larger than usually happens each year.

Yeah, that's complete nonsense.

Two of your articles are off topic, and the third is both biased and focused on the wrong variables. The fact that 20 million people died in China's Great Leap Forward does not mean 330,000 unnecessary deaths to COVID are okay.

There are smart people on this board, including BoJ and [|]. You should learn from them.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, that's complete nonsense.
>
> Two of your articles are off topic, and the third
> is both biased and focused on the wrong variables.
> The fact that 20 million people died in China's
> Great Leap Forward does not mean 330,000
> unnecessary deaths to COVID are okay.
>
> There are smart people on this board, including
> BoJ and [|]. You should learn from them.

Stubborn facts of tremendously increased deaths from all forms of strss and government shutdowns keep rolling in. And, that's just ONE city. It may take an entire year or more to tabulate some of these national charts.

*Moved downward*



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2020 10:18PM by Lot's Wife.

You'd think the increase in refrigerated trucks at hospitals hauling away bodies would tip everyone off, but no.

Thanks very much for this, BoJ.

Stunning, isn't it?

Find out what the Pied Piper and his minions say, accept that as truth, and go find sources that support your perspective regardless of whether those sources are credible. And if you can't find sources that substantiate your position, just post anything on any topic and pretend its germane.

No thought required.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stunning, isn't it?
>
> Find out what the Pied Piper and his minions say,
> accept that as truth, and go find sources that
> support your perspective regardless of whether
> those sources are credible. And if you can't find
> sources that substantiate your position, just post
> anything on any topic and pretend its germane.
>
> No thought required.

Just one city, I'm guessing there might be more we'll soon learn about.
https://fee.org/articles/san-francisco-sees-more-overdose-deaths-than-covid-deaths-in-2020/?utm_medium=related_widget&_gl=1*1wj7grg*_ga*QkpRWE0ydEttdlFaMWVvUXZabz
E1RU92Nk5IaEtuMVN6NkZSYXRXYlNvS3k0ckNSX25NdnE0SjFLUHBEQWtKQg..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2020 10:04PM by josephssmmyth.

So is it your position that there have been 3 times more overdose deaths than covid deaths in the United States?
Is it your position that 1,000,000+ people have died of drug overdoses this year?
Is it your position that >30% of the estimated total deaths in the US this year will be from drug overdoses?
Do you actually have any evidence to support that?
The results from one city are not representative of the country as a whole.

I'll let you in on two secrets.

First: if you want to know if a pattern in a city like San Francisco characterizes the entire country, you can look at the national data. BoJ did that. The data contradict your argument. Did you miss that?

Second: your source relies on an AP article.* But since your intermediary is biased, it mischaracterizes the original AP piece profoundly. To be specific, the source does NOT ascribe the drug deaths in San Francisco to COVID restrictions. It ascribes them to the opioid crisis and compares the number of COVID deaths simply to say that we shouldn't forget the drugs problem because they too are serious. In short, it uses COVID as the standard for a public health disaster--the opposite of what you are doing.

Does that matter to you? Do you care if your sources are making stuff up much as you do?




*https://apnews.com/article/san-francisco-coronavirus-pandemic-a48a148efadbeaa1181148ea367c4d68

I was going to mention that hospitals running at near, and for brief periods over capacity, and people dying so fast that refrigerated trailers are needed to handle the wave of deaths that overwhelm normal storage facilities, are not normal events. Not close to normal.

josephssmmyth apparently is one of the diehard skeptics for whom no data is so clear-cut that it cannot be ignored.

He has found a true religion! Belief 'trumps' facts.

It appears that your angle is that covid deaths do not increase the total by a large percentage and can pretty much be ignored. You miss the point that the covid deaths were preventable and need not have happened.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It appears that your angle is that covid deaths do
> not increase the total by a large percentage and
> can pretty much be ignored. You miss the point
> that the covid deaths were preventable and need
> not have happened.

Masks and Hand Washing would have saved all the people in their 80's until vaccines could be administered. Go that, but even Fauci never ever said those things.. did he?

> Masks and Hand Washing would have saved all the
> people in their 80's until vaccines could be
> administered.

False. Nor would they have saved all the people in their 70s or 60s or teens, or noughts. You can't indicate a single country in which those measures have prevented deaths for any age category. Moreover you ignore the chronic health problems that are killing those who were asymptomatic or who have recovered from the disease.


-----------------
> Go that, but even Fauci never ever
> said those things.. did he?

Why would he say something that is so obviously false?

So you don't think measures could have been taken to prevent covid from entering the country ?

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So you don't think measures could have been taken
> to prevent covid from entering the country ?

Did you forget, not hardly a single death when USA (among hugely popular criticism) shut down international travel, right?

Now, we see a potential repeating of a presumed application of safe "science" in action, completely and utterly maybe failing DownUnder!

Here ya go..
https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/australia/coronavirus-nsw-numbers-vic-rules-qld-border-news/live-coverage/131f540ec322bb8ee0f7ddebbcd0b527

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/australia-coronavirus-cases-melbourne-lockdown/2020/11/05/96c198b2-1cb7-11eb-ad53-4c1fda49907d_story.html%3foutputType=amp

We have to wait 30, 60, and 90 days to maybe see.

You're lapsing into incomprehensibility again.

And here I thought I had created the dullest, most "eat your brussels sprouts" post possible, and yet josephssmmyth is managing to blow it up. It's a gift.

Again, your first source says nothing like what you claim. And the second one says the opposite of what you do. Thus Australia did remarkably well because. . .

"Perhaps most important. . . leaders from across the ideological spectrum persuaded Australians to take the pandemic seriously early on and prepared them to give up civil liberties they had never lost before, even during two world wars."

What is the difference between the US and Australia? Australian politicians were united in supporting the science whereas Trump and his allies encouraged the violation of the scientific rules. You claim "safe 'science'" didn't work in the United States. In fact, it was never tried.

josephssmmyth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Masks and Hand Washing would have saved all the
> people in their 80's until vaccines could be
> administered. Go that, but even Fauci never ever
> said those things.. did he?

Absolutely totally completely thoroughly incorrect. Of course he did, repeatedly.

Besides, nobody said even all those measures are complete safeguards 100% of the time. HCWs in full PPE can still contract the virus. Just ask your neighbourhood respiratory therapist. RTs are present at every intubation and extubation of a Covid patient, one of the riskiest of therapeutic measures for the HCW.

The level of uneducated skepticism about this pandemic is beyond my comprehension. Questions? Sure. Insults? Why?

Australia has the potential to have a disaster on their hands, but there is some good news. Here in the US vaccine workers under the incredibly amazing Warp Speed program have already administered almost five million covid stabs since December 20, 2020!
That's quite a remarkable number and if it stays on track it'll just get better and better and better.

Other countries could potentially duplicate those numbers and only 25mil people live in Australia.

(The current population of Australia is 25,644,423 as of Monday, December 28, 2020, based on Worldometer elaboration of the latest United Nations data.)

Five million is indeed a remarkable number. It is also false. As of today, 2.1 million Americans have been vaccinated against COVID. Not five million.

And Pfizer, the first to produce a vaccine, did not participate in Warp Speed. Trump claimed they did, but they immediately set the record straight. As Kathrin Jansen, head of vaccine development at that firm said, "we were never part of the Warp Speed. We have never taken any money from the U.S. government, or from anyone."

So there's that.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Five million is indeed a remarkable number. It is
> also false. As of today, 2.1 million Americans
> have been vaccinated against COVID. Not five
> million.
>
> And Pfizer, the first to produce a vaccine, did
> not participate in Warp Speed. Trump claimed they
> did, but they immediately set the record straight.
> As Kathrin Jansen, head of vaccine development at
> that firm said, "we were never part of the Warp
> Speed. We have never taken any money from the U.S.
> government, or from anyone."
>
> So there's that.

Sweetie,do your metrics algorithm, the first shipments started on the 20th of December and in only three days during startup went above a million. Continue the graph..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/12/23/health/us-coronavirus-wednesday/index.html

((NBC News is tracking administered doses in each state by surveying health departments and examining daily reports. Some states have not yet reported data.))

C'mon Man, he he he..

Shipped does not equal administered.
As of today, the number is just over 2 million (out of 11.4 million distributed).

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html

Do you think that vaccine administration occurred at the same rate over a holiday weekend?

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Shipped does not equal administered.
> As of today, the number is just over 2 million
> (out of 11.4 million distributed).
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-
> 19-vaccine-doses.html
>
> Do you think that vaccine administration occurred
> at the same rate over a holiday weekend?

I don't know of any front line workers or assistance living centers allowing visitation into hospitals over these past few days.

There is no point.

He keeps shifting positions. Two million means five million, Trump brought the vaccines to market in the UK and other countries as well as the United States and gets credit for Pfizer's work even though Pfizer refused to take the money he offered for development.

That's wrong? Well, let's change the argument. Maybe the new one can be phrased so loosely that no one can understand it let alone address it. And if all else fails, just call someone "Sweetie" and pretend that condescension equals intelligence.

Meanwhile, although I don't work in Dagny's world I do know a fair number of senior business people; and in early May a C-suite executive at one of the pharma firms told me that the odds of there being a good vaccine by December were 90% and by the first quarter of 2021 were 100%. I didn't have the background to evaluate that claim, but it's proved true.

That was before Operation Warp Speed launched.

All the pharmaceutical companies across the globe were trying to figure out what they could develop ASAP. It didn't take Warp Speed for them to figure out a pandemic was starting. We all wanted to develop products to help, compete, and make money. There was cooperation quickly among multiple companies, many not headquartered in the US, that I personally was amazed to witness.

The FDA already knew they would need to use emergency use protocols (duh) and unfortunately had to deal with Trump meddling as did the CDC.

The beauty of Warp Speed was supposed to be the implementation/distribution side, but even that had a hitch or two already.

I'm hopeful and will give credit where credit is due.

To be honest I suspect the new strains can impact the vaccine antigenicity effectiveness due to small changes in the spike protein used for the mRNA. It will be interesting to see if there will need to be repeat vaccines with the latest strains.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All the pharmaceutical companies across the globe
> were trying to figure out what they could develop
> ASAP. It didn't take Warp Speed for them to figure
> out a pandemic was starting. We all wanted to
> develop products to help, compete, and make money.
> There was cooperation quickly among multiple
> companies, many not headquartered in the US, that
> I personally was amazed to witness.
>
> The FDA already knew they would need to use
> emergency use protocols (duh) and unfortunately
> had to deal with Trump meddling as did the CDC.
>
> The beauty of Warp Speed was supposed to be the
> implementation/distribution side, but even that
> had a hitch or two already.
>
> I'm hopeful and will give credit where credit is
> due.
>
> To be honest I suspect the new strains can impact
> the vaccine antigenicity effectiveness due to
> small changes in the spike protein used for the
> mRNA. It will be interesting to see if there will
> need to be repeat vaccines with the latest
> strains.

Trump meddlesome activities brought the vaccine to market about four or five years earlier than anybody said, he was told ten months was impossible.

The mutant activities of the changing virus are not a problem.

Lastly, any claims by the manufacturer of the vaccine to prevent infection at this time is held to a low number of sixty days. It very well could be much higher but front line workers will probably be offered a third and fourth administration throughout 2021 year.
I have an inside source (medical lawyer of multiple physian's law office)

I worked on a COVID product for an international pharmaceutical company and I can tell you the 5 year time frame is bunk. Trump had nothing to do with my company and others prioritizing what we could.

I'm glad you know so much about mutating RNA long term on this virus. The scientists could have skipped all that protein mapping on the spike and just asked your inside source (eye roll).

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I worked on a COVID product for an international
> pharmaceutical company and I can tell you the 5
> year time frame is bunk. Trump had nothing to do
> with my company and others prioritizing what we
> could.
>
> I'm glad you know so much about mutating RNA long
> term on this virus. The scientists could have
> skipped all that protein mapping on the spike and
> just asked your inside source (eye roll).

No emergency protocol was exercised? Okay, if you saysoibelieve..

Hidden or otherwise starkly underrepresented covid numbers in Russia.

Hmmm..

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/news/531880-russia-acknowledges-covid-19-death-toll-is-three-times-what-was-previously%3famp

What does that have to do with the topic being discussd?

When the facts fail you, try doing some card tricks!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When the facts fail you, try doing some card
> tricks!
Medical staff for maybe liability reasons only insure no covid infection for two months after treatment. It could very well be longer.

Your attention given to insults are as weak as maybe a house of cards.

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
"Hidden or otherwise starkly underrepresented covid numbers in Russia.
Hmmm.."
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/news/531880-russia-acknowledges-covid-19-death-toll-is-three-times-what-was-previously%3famp



> What does that have to do with the topic being
> discussd?

Oh, that's a potentially 2019 death toll number that is either a mistake or deliberately altered for maybe unknown reasons.
Suggesting, it really really can happen, see?

The fact that the Russian government falsifies the relevant data means that the US government does the same thing? That's quite a logical leap. And if it were true in the United States, doesn't it mean that the source of the lies is the Trump administration?

You can't win a presidential election, occupy the White House, fire everyone you dislike, and dominate the cable news industry and still play the victim.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fact that the Russian government falsifies the
> relevant data means that the US government does
> the same thing? That's quite a logical leap. And
> if it were true in the United States, doesn't it
> mean that the source of the lies is the Trump
> administration?
>
> You can't win a presidential election, occupy the
> White House, fire everyone you dislike, and
> dominate the cable news industry and still play
> the victim.
But I didn't qualify the lie, it has the potential to be a latent concern of no deliberately exercised deceitfulness.

The covid numbers have already maybe proven themselves as potentially needy of some review.

Not a bad line, if you know what I mean!

"You can't win a presidential election, occupy the White House, fire everyone you dislike, and dominate the cable news industry and still play the victim"

Just finish the statement, please!

..add "Unless You're Trump"

Now that really, works!

Thanks for the data. So Covid has already killed ten times the number of people in the U.S. that died of the flu last winter.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the data. So Covid has already killed
> ten times the number of people in the U.S. that
> died of the flu last winter.

The OP is comparing the (practically)
same exact 3mil number of total US deaths
for 2019 with 2020 3mil total deaths.

Something seems odd..

I'm comparing the number of influenza deaths last winter to the number of Covid deaths this year, since so many Covidiots insist on saying that Covid is "just like the flu."

If I were still in the classroom teaching math, science, and health, I'd put two students on one side of the room, and 20 on the other, and say, "That's the number of people that died from the flu last year vs. the number that have currently died of Covid." I swear to God that I could get a 7 year old to understand it.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I swear to God that I could get a
> 7 year old to understand it.

Hah! A fit of pique from summer!

>>Hah! A fit of pique from summer!

I'm getting cranky in my old age. lol

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>Hah! A fit of pique from summer!
>
> I'm getting cranky in my old age. lol

Hah, wouldn't say saw you unbraged, sort of sounds too disrobing.