Sorry this is going to be quite a diatribe, but it’s cathartic, and if you can’t follow the whole way through, I get it. I am writing because I know this board to be a compassionate group of freethinkers who have gone through a similar experience. Since I am a nevermo, if there is a better online community with which I should associate or bear my deepest inner thoughts, I am open to your recommendations.

I once hung out here because, I guess, I was trying to understand something when my BIC (but largely inactive) spouse went through a brief period of reactivation during a time of significant marital strife. I wanted nothing to do with Mormonism and I wanted it out of my life. Now, I just laugh when I think about my wife’s plyg ancestors (a fellow name of Lot Smith…DW is his great-great-great granddaughter… of course, I found crusaders in my family tree, so I got religious whack-jobs, too).

I became quite an expert in Mormonism and just how nutty it is. I think I’m about as knowledgeable of Mormon teachings as any nonmo (I know, nailing down LDS doctrine is like nailing Jell-O to a wall). I used to be pretty unfriendly to the Mormon missionaries. Now, I pretty much don’t care. I take them to dinner. I talk with them about their homes and their families and their dreams. I treat them the way I’d want someone to treat my youngest son, who is near in age to them, if he were away from home. If Mormonism gets you through the day... whatever floats your boat.

But to the real heart of the matter: my own deconversion is happening. To start with, I’ve been a lifelong Christian. And it gets worse. I have advanced degrees in ministry (a 96-semester hour Master of Divinity, with 33 additional semester hours to earn a Master of Theology, and I’m halfway through a doctorate in Christian ministry leadership). Six years ago, I gave up about a third of my pay to go to work for church (and since there have been no raises since, and I know what my potential salary would be now at the old job, it’s even more).

I work like a dog. Sixty-five hours a week, at least. I led an elderly, pretty much fundamentalist church to revamp, reach younger people, and live a new life with a much less (on the surface) fundamentalist bent. Yes, I’m a pastor. We don’t have a denomination, so there was no help from above, but we did sign the church over to the larger church I had been working for. So now I’m back at full-time at the church I first attended and worked for. Trust me, this has some bearing, and all to say, I’m really invested, as any as the most TBM of TBMs.

I’ve long recognized that there are a whole lot more grey areas in life, the Bible, everything than the average Christian. Most of them want black and white. They will sacrifice truth on the altar of certainty. I’ve always thought there was enough of a core of truth in all of it that it could stand without the need for absolute certainty. But the more reason and logic and evidence I apply to it—something I’ve always been happy to apply to Mormonism—the more I recognize it’s all bullshit. Yeah, I mean, the civilizations the Bible interacts with, for the most part, existed, whereas the Lamanites and Nephites were a figment of Joseph Smith’s imagination. Six-day creation is bullshit. A global flood is bullshit. A young earth is bullshit. The Old Testament God (and for that matter, even the God that Jesus talked about at times, and the God of Revelation) seems like more of an angry, alcoholic step-father sort of God.

But perhaps the biggest evidence against Christianity is Christians. Morally, they are as bad or worst than most non-believers. This past election cycle, Christians—especially the Christians I know—shocked me to the core. I’m not a big fan of either the Democrats or the Republicans and not a member of either party. I particularly try to stay away from politics. But, from the time he was elected, I said Donald Trump is NOT a Christian! The uncritical approval that Christians (particularly the president of my alma mater) gave to Trump was shocking…even in the wake of Capital Hill riots. In private, I said impeach that son-of-a-gun and convict him, and a lot of Christians got really bent out of shape with me. But the election is really icing on the cake for a whole line of just stupid stuff Christians say and believe—even stuff that, as a devout but highly educated minister, I recognized as stupid. Perhaps the worst thing has been the senior pastor I work for…absolute micromanager who is happy to let me work my butt off and give me negative feedback.

Anyway, I’ve been turning onto my own beliefs the mirror that I’ve been so happy to show Mormons and the most hardcore fundamentalist Christians. You can count the beliefs I have held onto as still solidly evangelical, even if the fundies think I’m a liberal compromiser. Now I’m questioning an eternal hell for people who have never heard the gospel. Yeah, I know Mormonism has always had a hard spot with that. But I can’t swallow their views either, especially since, quite oddly enough, only ex-Mormons go to hell. And the atonement, at least as my brand of Christianity sees it… that a God-man had to shed his blood to pay for my sins. That anything or anyone has to shed blood for sins. Doesn’t that seem like an outrageous penalty?

Then back to Christians. I think back to the days I didn’t invest much, if any, time in church. I had friends. I spent time with my kids. I had more money and more time. I wasn’t frustrated because people wouldn’t change. Look at most Christians (and most of my LDS acquaintances, for that matter), and I think, you know, if I didn’t go to church with these people, I wouldn’t hang out with most of them (except the ex-drunks and ex-druggies—they seem to understand this “grace” that we preach but don’t let anyone, especially ministers, get to enjoy).

I know from this board, that ex-Mormons are told they were angry at God, or offended at church, or just wanted to go and sin. People who leave the evangelical Christian fold are told the same thing. To be sure, I am offended. Because people don’t live out what they say they believe. I want to serve people. I want to help the poor, and the addicted. I want to see an end to human trafficking. Something unusual for an evangelical, I became convinced of the evils of capital punishment several years ago. Theoretically, I am totally against abortion, but I certainly have never walked in the shoes of someone who’s had one, and I’m not judgmental of the women who I know for fact have had them. Guess I’m a liberal.

But, our church operates a food pantry for the poor in the neighborhood. We have to beg for volunteers… I’ve even got an atheist volunteer—an atheist gives more of a crap about the community than do the Christians. Or, I should call them, the religious consumers, who bitch and complain and tattle on me to the senior pastor for the slightest thing I do that doesn’t serve their preferences. Bitch about my sermon.

I’m starting to imagine the good I could do for the poor, the undereducated, the addicted, and the down-and-out. I love having young guys on probation come to the church and do their community service. I just talk with them, and I don’t push the Jesus stuff on them. I am just an older man that can speak into their lives in a way maybe their father never did.

We don’t have exclusive truth. If I grew up in Massachusetts, I’d probably be catholic. If I grew up in Kuwait, I’d be Muslim. And if I grew up in Utah, I’d be a Mormon. That’s what determines faith for most people. Nothing else. No revelation. No mystical truth.

I see a lot of potential in what good I could do away from church. I just don’t have an exit strategy. Ministry is a second career, so I do have other skills. Just never really had to go find a job. Always knew somebody that wanted me to come work for them.

I would imagine that some people on this board had jobs that depended on the LDS church. What did you do? How do you make the exit? As far as the whole religious (non) belief thing, I don’t feel like I’m on a crusade. Pew Research and other stats by Christian researchers even, show that people increasingly recognize religion for the harmful bullshit it is. So I don’t feel a need to be public with my unbelief—I’m not even sure to what extent my unbelief reaches. I don’t feel like my world is collapsing—strangely enough, I am enough of a student of science, philosophy, and psychology to know that the world doesn’t need to collapse (my first career was very technical). I see a brighter future outside of religion—maybe something in the non-profit sector. So, I think when I leave, I’m just going to say I’m burned out from ministry.

I’ve always told others in church that doubt is okay, and that church should be a safe place for doubt and asking questions. But I know it won’t be safe for me. And I am going to have to live in the tension for a while of professing something I’m not sure I believe. It’s dishonesty for sure, but I’ve got to pay the bills until I can find something else.

I don’t know how to make an exit. I'm a kind, reasonable, educated and hard-working man. But I’m mentally, physically, emotionally, even financially drained, over 50, and I’m not sure how to make the shift at this point. My wife will be pissed at my unbelief. So maybe I’d tell her to go back to the LDS church if that’s what floats her boat. I suspect she’ll just be happy sleeping in on Sundays.

If you’ve “endured to the end,” thank you for reading. Any advice is welcome.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2021 12:18PM by stillburned.

I enjoyed immensely the view from your position. Adds a lot to this forum.

My first thought was, you are hanging by your bloody fingernails to the cliff of Christianity--in particular, the American version. If you look down as you dangle there, you will see that your feet are about 6 inches off the ground. Turn as you drop and see the world.

Start looking for your new job. Now. There are companies that will value your judgement. Not everybody wants the next wet behind the ears wunderkind.

Atheists are often the kindest most reciprocal people. They get a bad rap because as people we often let ugly monikers dictate how we feel about people. Crooked Hillary. Sleepy Joe.

I will tell you my own personal philosophy that has a lot to do with leaving religion:

"The true test of a person is not whether they can follow all the rules, the commandments. The true test is who will they be, what will they do, how will they treat others, when there are not rules."


Of course, should there be a test at all? A judgement day?



PS On my mission in Argentina about 1969 we converted an English Clergyman who was very devout to his religion. In the end he refused baptism although he said what we presented him with made perfect sense and he believed us. (I was good with a side of sincere--deadly combination). He said the reason he could not do it was he had devoted 50 years to his religion, put everything he had into it, and could not turn his back [on his investment]. Hmmmnnnn

Definitely didn't mean to demean atheists in my post. Because the fact is, all the ones I know (I may know more of them than I think I do), do care about others, are kind, and want to make a difference in the lives of others in the here and now. Unlike the religious consumers sitting on their asses in apathy as people around them suffer. As homeless people try to get a little feeling of belonging--only to receive a cold shoulder.

I never took your comments that way regarding atheists. Apologies if I worded things poorly. I found all of your comments so lacking in judgement it was refreshing.

All the best.

Oh no apologies needed! Just didn't want to come across as a jerk, or shocked that atheists actually have morals and manners! Sure appreciate your kind feedback.

The worse salesman is the one that does not believe in the product.

Can you network to some nonprofit companies that have the same vision or goals you excel at?

It would be possible given your background. Try to designate small portions of your job to others by making them feel empowered. That will free up your time to search for your next step. Do habitat for humanity, maybe some food banks. Interview some of the upper level managers. Usually nonprofit corporations have lots of networking options. You just may find you step out in the optimal direction.

Best of luck, I will send positive vibes your way.

I don't know about the job stuff. Sounds terribly rough to mix religious beliefs with a paycheck.

I met a guy who started a seed church in St. Joseph, Missouri and then left his ministry and married a congregant who shared his disbeliefs in Christianity. They seemed happy when I interacted with them. This is the place they found community after their separation from the old congregation. This is where I met them. I don't attend anymore but I believe in their mission. I think it is a really good thing. Secular community.

https://www.oasisnetwork.com/

Thanks so much for the link. I'll check it out! And yeah, mixing religion and a paycheck. Sounded good from the outside. Doesn't look too wise, in retrospect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2021 12:18PM by stillburned.

When I still believed I thought about working for the church. When I found out I needed to always maintain a recommend I just couldn't. I hated the temple. So at least that kept me personally away from mixing the two.

If I remember correctly, there is an active website for clergy who no longer believe. Sorry, I don't remember its name or location. Try a google search...

Hello. I'm a member of the church who was baptized in my 30's after years of investigation. Honestly, go explore. See what feels right to you. You sound very christlike in your intentions, something that, I agree, is missing in plenty of religious people. If you're wondering why I'm on this forum..We have a friend who spends alot of time on this forum having left the church. I had to visit because I've been really curious what she's reading these days. The truth is, she has gone downhill, but this is her journey and she chose to leave the church. Oh and the thing about people who leave going to hell..how can they say that when many members where baptized under duress as 8 year olds. My point though is that seeking is important. Also, I'm not surprised you had an atheist volunteer some are good people.

Right now, what sounds great is getting about 25 hours a week and good chunk of my income back, without the mental torment. Glad the LDS church works for you. Never would for me, and I somehow doubt my deconversion would change me much as far as my moral beliefs (might go back to having a beer or glass of wine every now and then).

The flood is no scientific joke.

Genesis 2:6

”But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.”

The amount of water INSIDE the earth is yuge. In solid form many times what is on the surface of earth.

Floods leave evidence. There is no evidence for any global flood as described in the Bible.

I'm sorry, this is utter nonsense. That much water would be glaringly obvious on gravitometers. There is no evidence for large caches of subterranean water, much less in multi-million cubic mile quantities.

There was no worldwide flood, regardless of how many verses of Genesis get quoted. It's right up there with flat eartherism. Not possible.

Not to mention the lack of population bottlenecks, the paucity of archaeological evidence of social collapse, and the fact that two or seven animals are far short of the 250 or so of each species necessary to precluding that species from going extinct due to inbreeding.

There may be a very large quantity of subterranean water

https://www.bnl.gov/newsroom/news.php?a=111648

"If just one percent of the weight of mantle rock located in the transition zone is H2O, that would be equivalent to nearly three times the amount of water in our oceans, the researchers said."

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2017SSRv..212..743P/abstract

"In addition to the ubiquitous presence of water in the hydrosphere, most of Earth's "water" actually occurs as trace amounts of hydrogen incorporated in the rock-forming silicate minerals that constitute the planet's crust and mantle, and may also be stored in the metallic core."


https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/03/pockets-water-may-lay-deep-below-earth-s-surface

Of course, getting it to the surface to cause a worldwide flood is another matter.

Pursue a path that will make you happy. Only you can figure that out, but it might involve going back to your old line of work, or a different job, or a different type of church. It could be doing volunteer work. It does sound like you need more time with your family, and more time (and perhaps money) for yourself.

I have a saying...don't go asking for Jesus in heaven, because you might be interrupting his weekly poker game. Mother Teresa is getting a manicure, and Gandhi is taking surfing lessons. The Buddha is tending his garden.

In other words, when have you given enough? I say this as a 25 year veteran urban teacher. I have given and given and given and given some more of my time, my money, and my resources. And honestly, I've given enough. It's not burnout so much as an acknowledgment that whatever you have given has been an important part of your life, and something that you very much needed to do, but perhaps now it's time to move on, and let others take up the task.

So I hope you don't view your disenchantment with the ministry as a type of failure. There was something that you needed to learn from it, and get out of it, and you did. And now it's time for a change.