In a recent Religion News Service article, statistics were given on levels of in-faith versus outsider marriages among various groups within Judaism. I assume nothing happens in a vacuum, so whatever is happening within American Judaism, is probably also happening to some extent within Mormonism, another high-identity religion/culture

https://religionnews.com/2021/05/25/marriage-trends-political-views-undermining-the-notion-of-a-unified-american-jewish-identity/

"(The Conversation) — The notion of a united Jewish American community bound together by common beliefs has been eroded by rising interfaith marriages and a growing divide between religious and nonreligious Jews.

"That is one of the main themes that emerges from a recent Pew Research Center survey, the first since 2013, that provides an up-to-date portrait of the American Jewish community, including its beliefs, practices, marital patterns, racial and ethnic makeup and political views.

"The American Jewish community, it found, comprises 7.5 million Jews, or 2.4% of the U.S. population. The survey headlined four central findings of special interest: American Jews are culturally engaged, increasingly diverse, politically polarized and worried about anti-Semitism."


"Among these major tenets common to religious and nonreligious Jews alike he listed “unity of the Jewish people,” “mutual responsibility,” “the centrality of the state of Israel” and “Jewish survival.” These core beliefs, he argued, bound Jews together.

"Not one of these beliefs, according to the new Pew survey, continues to unite American Jews today. Although the survey does not explain this change, it hints that intermarriage, which it defines as the presence within the Jewish community of a rising number of what it calls “non-Jewish spouses,” is a big part of the change. Fully 72% of non-Orthodox Jews who have married since 2010 describe their spouses as being “non-Jewish.”


Among all US Jews in the survey, in 1980, 18% had married outside Judaism. By 2010-2020, it was 61%, and as mentioned in the paragraph above, 72% of non-Orthodox Jews had non-Jewish spouses.


"The widest gap of all within the American Jewish community nowadays, according to Pew, surrounds the question of the continuation of the Jewish people — once a bedrock concern and sacred desire among American Jews of every kind.

"However much Jews once disagreed internally, they all wanted their children and grandchildren to remain Jewish, in no small part a result of the trauma of losing so many Jews during the Holocaust. Now, however, those feelings seem to be ebbing.

"Asked whether “it is very important that their grandchildren be Jewish,” almost all Orthodox Jews ‚— 91% — said yes, and so did 62% of Conservative ones. By contrast, only a small percentage — 4% of Jews of no religion and 11% of Jews of no particular branch of Judaism — agreed.


That strikes me as a remarkable disparity. On the other hand, I have TBM relatives who consider it very important that their descendants marry within Mormonism and stay active in the LDS Church. While I do know a few Mormons who openly don't believe Mormon teachings, they nevertheless want to raise their children within Mormonism because they consider it their cultural identity.

I think it is safe to say that is not true of this group. I consider myself a "DNA Mormon". but I have no desire to be actively connected to Mormon culture, nor do I wish any of my family members to stay Mormon. My Mormon acculturation is not something to be cherished and continued. It is simply a fact, like the state and city I was born in.


In any case, I'd be interested in seeing what the trend is for mixed Mo-nonMo marriages. Or delaying or not marrying in general among Mormons. My gut feeling is that yeah, the youth of Zion shall falter, to answer the question from the LDS hymn.

He got married in 1979 to his Jewish wife. They've been divorced for 16 years now. He is still "Jewish." He was quite active while they were married and his kids still worship and he expects them to. His son is very involved in the Jewish community in Denver. He married a non-Jew, but she also converted. He is expecting his first grandchild (girl) in August. He talks about the fact that he wants Jewish grandchildren. It is all very important to him.

He wasn't religious at all when I dated him in 1977-78. He said he'd convert as he felt children should be raised in a religion that both parents embraced. I knew/felt he would never buy into mormonism, but he was willing to convert. Who knows??? What would have happened. (I don't plan on ever remarrying. I so "loved" marriage--having a boss.)

It is a good trend and, I believe, affecting Mormonism as well. This is a wedge issue: if the church defines good behavior as requiring LDS marriages, a lot will leave as they value love more highly than a repressive social club.

Also noteworthy regarding Judaism, in the late 19th century Jews in Western Europe were integrating quite happily. One of Britain's greatest PMs, Disraeli, is a good example of that. But the pogroms in Russia, oppression elsewhere in Eastern Europe, and increasing anti-Semitism in even the liberal democracies (Dreyfus Affair in France) combined to reverse that trend, enhancing Jews' commitment to their community.

In other words, changes in the importance of national and cultural identitification can go both ways.

I have a number of fundamental disagreements with the conclusions (and often the data used) in this Pew study.

I am a Jew ("Jew by choice," a.k.a. "convert"), I have been a Jewish spokesperson for presentations to Jewish synagogues and Jewish organizations, and I have researched these related subjects quite a bit, and in some depth, over the past thirty years.

If I am required to name a Jewish "denominational" affiliation, I say "Conservative" because my conversion was obtained through the University of Judaism/now: American Jewish University, in Los Angeles (the university campus overlooks the 405 Freeway as the freeway below winds through the Sepulveda Pass), and therefore, if I am required to prove I am legally Jewish, my Jewishly legal paperwork was issued by the Conservative rabbinate. (The U.J./AJU is a university affiliated with the Conservative movement of Judaism.)

But the practical reality is much more nuanced. I am definitely not Reform. I can easily accept Reconstructionist Judaism (and often read Reconstructionist Jewish writers)....I am most emphatically not ultra-Orthodox in any way, but I can easily accept Modern Orthodox Judaism....and there are some parts of me which are very much integral components of the "core" me which come from what, in my mind, I characterize as "Natan Slifkin Judaism" which is more rational in its contents, and is FAR more scientific, than is most Jewish Orthodoxy.

My main problem with the Pew study is that it is, in my opinion, fundamentally flawed. Whoever designed this study is SO convinced (I am pretty sure by their non-Jewish American upbringing) that Judaism is primarily "religious" that s/he/they cannot see that this is emphatically not so.

From a Jewish perspective (may possibly not include the ultra-Orthodox ;) ), Jewish peoplehood and Jewish values far outweigh the religious factors. A person VERY often may be a born Jew who is totally unreligious, they may be atheist or agnostic or whatever, and may never go to a Jewish religious service unless it is for a family event such as a funeral or a wedding, but the internal Jewish identification nevertheless stays firmly in place, and can be accessed at any moment that important Jewish values are transgressed. (Examples from American history: slavery, segregation, children of any background growing up in poverty and without minimum medical care, food, and protection....etc.)

Deep and long-held Jewish values (justice, the importance of education, etc.) have no Jewish "denominational" lines (again: except for some of the ultra-Orthodox in certain specific geographical areas), and do not depend on any given Jew's religiosity or religious beliefs.

Jewish values (which often have extremely deep importance in a given Jew's daily life) do not necessarily have anything to do with religious beliefs or religious practice (such as keeping kosher, observing Shabbat, etc.). And this includes Jewish/non-Jewish intermarriage. The children of "intermarried" couples may not be TAUGHT religious precepts as religion, but they almost certainly learn Jewish ethics and values (justice, compassion, etc.) from their parents and their relatives.

Contrary to this study, specifically Jewish religious beliefs may have nothing at all to do with the developing [positive] characters of the offspring in intermarriages.

And (quoting the article) "Jews of no religion," who "identify as Jews only ethnically, culturally or by family background," can be, in daily life and in the ways they raise their children, JUST as Jewish as those who identify as religiously Jewish.

While I accept the mathematical figures presented in the article, I think the conclusions are based on the ignorance and deep misunderstanding of those who designed the survey.

If Americans were evaluated re: their patriotism by whether they sang "Yankee Doodle Dandy" every Fourth of July, or attended a live fireworks show on that day every year, or recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag on a regular basis, the results of such a survey would, exactly as with this study about Jews, be just as flawed as to who among us is "patriotic" or not. Being an American is about a whole lot more than reciting a pledge, or singing the national anthem, or watching fireworks once a year--and if these criteria were used to determine "patriotic Americanism," most of us Americans would "fail" in exactly the same ways cited in this study, and for the same underlying assumptions.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2021 06:56PM by Tevai.

Excellent points. Thank you for clarifying.

Thanks for your input, Tevai. I was hoping you’d chime in, having an insider’s view.

I don’t think the Mormon identity is very comparable to the much stronger Jewish identity, though I am the wrong person to ask, having zero pioneer heritage. Mormons of pioneer stock might want to argue the point.

In any case, the large increase in mixed marriages in recent decades has got to have some impact on the cohesiveness of the Jewish communities.

I remember when I was a kid in the 1950s, an Italian Catholic and an Irish Catholic got married, and it was jokingly referred to as a mixed marriage. If a Methodist married a Presbyterian, that really was considered a mixed marriage, no joke about it.

Boy, are those days gone. I guess a Christian marrying a non-Christian would still raise some eyebrows, even today.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for your input, Tevai. I was hoping you’d
> chime in, having an insider’s view.

:)

Thank you!


> In any case, the large increase in mixed marriages
> in recent decades has got to have some impact on
> the cohesiveness of the Jewish communities.

If this discussion were about almost any other group, I would agree with you, but I think that American history in particular (plus a few other global histories as well) lead to the conclusion that intermarriage which includes Jews often has a different trajectory.

By at least the late 1800s, many non-Jewish American daughters were being encouraged, especially by their female non-Jewish relatives, to marry Jews, for a variety of reasons. Those non-Jewish daughters were being told that, if they married a Jewish husband, their lifetime material needs for financial support would almost surely be met, plus: their Jewish husbands would very likely not beat them or their children, nor would those Jewish husbands likely become alcoholics or gamblers.

What was often less specifically stated was that, from a social class standpoint, marrying a Jewish husband could likely lead to a rise in social status (from working class to middle class, or from middle class to upper middle class). And, yes, this would almost certainly be accompanied by at least some anti-Semitic social prejudice, but the economic rise, and the rise in personal physical security, for the non-Jewish wife of a Jewish man would be well worth any potential social loss which might occur.

This period of American history lasted from about the late 1800s to the start of WWII, when American society as a whole began a gigantic internal shift (which is still going on).

Those non-Jewish brides brought a huge spectrum of solid and strong American values to the (largely immigrant at that time) Jewish-American communities, and the combination was both powerful and lasting.

By the time WWII had ended, those "intermarriages" (some non-Jewish brides had become Jews; others had not) became centrally important in many geographical and sociological areas of American life--and in the lives and futures of their offspring.

Although Orthodox Jews (particularly the ultra-Orthodox), and many of their insular communities, began--and then continued-- to diminish (except in certain specific geographical areas like the large extended area around New York City and New Jersey), Jewish values began to steadily extend and increase throughout American life (much of this due to the entertainment industry, the high Jewish presence in all sectors of the publishing industry, and Jewish assimilation into the professional staffs of American universities and colleges). (It is no coincidence that an outsized percentage of 1950s-1960s Civil Rights workers, including those who were murdered, were Jews.)

In 2021, we can look back two or three centuries and see that the primary effect of intermarriage on most Jewish communities has been largely positive (including at the most basic level: biologically; Jews and Jewish communities are better because of the influx of non-Jewish literal blood which has greatly helped some long-standing, and specifically "Jewish," health issues which existed in larger numbers back then).

I think most everyone Jewish would agree that those who marry into Judaism tend to be community additions that aid and improve, rather than the opposite. My sense is that those who seek to "marry in" are often well-above-average intelligent and intellectually curious, and bring talents, and often insights (including legally, for example: targeted laws to protect children), which were previously either skimpy or largely lacking.

What I, personally, find humorous is that all of this really started, two or three centuries ago, with non-Jewish mothers and grandmothers and aunts and cousins telling their (mostly) daughters: "Find a Jewish man to marry. You won't ever be poor, he won't become an alcoholic or a gambler, and he won't beat either you or your children."

This is one of those "shadow" parts of American history most people don't really pay attention to, but--as with the REAL story of how the (virtually 100% Jewish "pioneer") motion picture industry "created" much of world culture and what we know as American culture--it is pivotal.

The USA would literally not have become the country it has become without historical, Jewish/non-Jewish, American intermarriage which largely began to increase comparatively dramatically in the late 1800s.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2021 01:23PM by Tevai.

Fascinating points, Tevai. My MIL converted to Judaism so she could marry FIL. My DH was 9 or 10 when she met the Mormons and converted with her children. Eventually FIL converted and became a local Mormon celebrity.

When I met DH, I knew he was different from most Mo boys I'd dated. For one thing, he said he wanted a smart wife and after his mission was going to date all the BYU girls on the Honors list. What? A Mormon guy wanted a smart woman? He didn't blink when I told him my educational plans. Nothing like those Mo guys back in Utah who expected future wives to drop out of school and work to support hubby through his education.

Years later we'd had enough of Mo'ism. The Church's anti-ERA stance along with learning about true church history led us to leave the church. DH eventually met with a rabbi to find out if he was really Jewish. Yes, he had a Jewish mother. He qualified. This was a Conservative rabbi. DH was active in Jewish genealogy groups and still maintains a website for his ancestral town. My children consider themselves Jewish, although none of them practice--they do maintain Jewish identity.

Am I better off economically for marrying him than a boy from SLC, Utah? I believe so, absolutely. And we both finished our undergraduate and post-graduate education. Has it been perfect? No, there have been many difficulties along the way, and I admit, some of it cultural.

My convert in-laws are still mostly faithful to Mo'ism. Which is weird at times.

Phantom Shadow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fascinating points, Tevai. My MIL converted to
> Judaism so she could marry FIL. My DH was 9 or 10
> when she met the Mormons and converted with her
> children. Eventually FIL converted and became a
> local Mormon celebrity.
>
> When I met DH, I knew he was different from most
> Mo boys I'd dated. For one thing, he said he
> wanted a smart wife and after his mission was
> going to date all the BYU girls on the Honors
> list. What? A Mormon guy wanted a smart woman? He
> didn't blink when I told him my educational plans.
> Nothing like those Mo guys back in Utah who
> expected future wives to drop out of school and
> work to support hubby through his education.
>
> Years later we'd had enough of Mo'ism. The
> Church's anti-ERA stance along with learning about
> true church history led us to leave the church. DH
> eventually met with a rabbi to find out if he was
> really Jewish. Yes, he had a Jewish mother. He
> qualified. This was a Conservative rabbi. DH was
> active in Jewish genealogy groups and still
> maintains a website for his ancestral town. My
> children consider themselves Jewish, although none
> of them practice--they do maintain Jewish
> identity.
>
> Am I better off economically for marrying him than
> a boy from SLC, Utah? I believe so, absolutely.
> And we both finished our undergraduate and
> post-graduate education. Has it been perfect? No,
> there have been many difficulties along the way,
> and I admit, some of it cultural.
>
> My convert in-laws are still mostly faithful to
> Mo'ism. Which is weird at times.

You have a fascinating story, Phantom Shadow!

Some things particularly caught my attention as I was reading your post....beginning with your husband specifically looking for a smart wife. I think this is one of the most widespread Jewish preferences, and it goes back to likely ancient times--but even if not technically ancient times, then shortly thereafter. This is widespread throughout worldwide Judaism, and it absolutely exists today.

Lots of practical reasons, some of them specifically Jewish.

For the ultra-Orthodox, women are typically the breadwinners in the family (with men spending their "working" time studying sacred texts in yeshivahs, so they typically need to be financially supported by their wife's income), which means that an above-average intelligent wife is a smart economic choice for a highly religious man. (The intelligence of the wife also counts in family businesses as well, since those women are typically absolutely central to the success of the business.)

Jews noticed fairly early that intelligence tends to track down through ancestral lines, so a smart wife means that smart offspring are at least more likely to occur than would likely happen otherwise.

There is also the "birds of a feather" phenomenon, which means that gifted children's classes (pre-school through high school) are typically great places for Jews to meet potential future romantic partners, or--at the very least--go through the earlier stages of their human relationships education.

To a large extent, much of Jewish life revolves around intellectual pursuits of one kind or another, and a recognizable sort of "[specifically] Jewish high culture," and respect for one's admirable ancestors (i.e., your great-great-great-grandfather was a noted scholar during his lifetime), so it makes sense that intelligence becomes one of the main factors most Jews consider when choosing one's life partner. And, since a given Jew wants their offspring to pass all of this on to THEIR future generations, you tend to pay a lot of attention to their choice of romantic partners too.

Thank you for posting your story!

I was smiling as I was reading it. :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2021 02:50PM by Tevai.

>>>T said: "For the ultra-Orthodox, women are typically the breadwinners in the family (with men spending their "working" time studying sacred texts in yeshivahs, so they typically need to be financially supported by their wife's income).."

Those women don't sound very smart to me! Just saying. ;-)

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >>>T said: "For the ultra-Orthodox, women are
> typically the breadwinners in the family (with men
> spending their "working" time studying sacred
> texts in yeshivahs, so they typically need to be
> financially supported by their wife's income).."
>
> Those women don't sound very smart to me! Just
> saying. ;-)


It's definitely not a life I would choose for myself!!

:D

"Jew by choice": I love that. When French people complain about immigrants (like me;-), I always say "You're here simply because you were born here, but we're here because we CHOSE France."

Much love to you, Tevai.

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Jew by choice": I love that. When French people
> complain about immigrants (like me;-), I always
> say "You're here simply because you were born
> here, but we're here because we CHOSE France."
>
> Much love to you, Tevai.

Thank you, Soft Machine.

:D

Maybe I’m a snob, but I really don’t want a cultural identity. It didn’t work out so well with the Mormons. Of course, I probably shouldn’t trust any religion less than 3000 years old.

Aren't there usually assumptions made based on the color of one's skin? You know, that that skin tone an indicator of what you can reliably expect? As in, "Odds are if he's Brown, he's a wet-back."


First the skin tone and calendar age appearance; they hit at the same time;

then the manner of dress;

then how language is used ...


I'm lucky... Within three minutes most people figure they don't need to call the Border Patrol, or "la migra", by which name they are lovingly known here in SoCal.




I don't know what to make of the notion that as time goes by, Mocha People will vastly predominate, while White and Darker tones will continue to become rarer and rarer.

Between Biden’s immigration policy and a high rate of procreation, I predict a lot more Mocha in America’s future. It will be Nephites and Lamanites all over again.

Buff white teenage boys who are large in stature need to get busy.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe I’m a snob, but I really don’t want a
> cultural identity.

Bradley, cultural identity isn't something one "wants." It engulfs one from birth; it is language, food preferences, attitude towards politics and myriad other things that we absorb unwittingly. So you may feel like you have no cultural identity, but it is inevitable that if you immersed yourself in another environment the "natives" would inevitably describe you largely by reference to your cultural background.

So exmos who hate the church are self-loathing?

I should be free to reject identification with any group that I don’t want to be part of. I’ll admit it’s a little hard to opt out of being human, but with the push for pronoun flexibility at least there’s hope.

To paraphrase Billy Joel, you may be right. I may be Mormon. You can’t run away from who you are, but here we all are claiming to be exmos. It’s like EOD claiming to be ex-Mexican.

We here in this group are among the last Mormons left. Those who are still in the church are actually ex-Mormon due to Rusty’s decree. But that’s a semantic game. Maybe excommunication is the only legitimate way to exit Mormonism. They have to kick you out. Even then, you still might be Mormon. Like John Dehlin.

I hate that you brought it up, but “the Mormons” still may be my peeps.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2021 03:45AM by babyloncansuckit.

This is a good discussion.


--------------
> So exmos who hate the church are self-loathing?

I wasn't thinking of Mormonism/ex-Mormonism as a culture. I was thinking more of being an American or a Westerner or something else on that scale. An ironic element of being an American is the frequent belief that one is supra-cultural, which is nonsense as any non-American would quickly note.


---------------
> I should be free to reject identification with any
> group that I don’t want to be part of. I’ll
> admit it’s a little hard to opt out of being
> human, but with the push for pronoun flexibility
> at least there’s hope.

It's also difficult to opt out of being a Briton or a Japanese or an American or having been the Most Interesting Man in the World (until that unfortunate rocket trip). For we bear in us the legacies of our past experiences and they more or less define us.


-------------
> To paraphrase Billy Joel, you may be right. I may
> be Mormon. You can’t run away from who you are,
> but here we all are claiming to be exmos. It’s
> like EOD claiming to be ex-Mexican.

You see, here you force me to consider the matter from a different vantage. Yes, you are right. Any of us who come from a long line of Mormons or who lived years or decades in the church will be Mormon culturally for the rest of our lives. We are like Jews or Catholics or Quakers who, even if they leave their community are defined by their personal history. A Catholic may be an atheist, but she is a Catholic atheist; an ex-Mormon may be an enemy of Mormonism but he is still defined (even negatively) by his Mormon experience.


---------------
> Maybe excommunication is
> the only legitimate way to exit Mormonism. They
> have to kick you out. Even then, you still might
> be Mormon. Like John Dehlin.

Exactly.


--------------
> I hate that you brought it up, but “the
> Mormons” still may be my peeps.

Mormons are assuredly not my people but a lot of my values are ineluctably Mormon or at least heavily influenced by Mormonism. In fact I left the religion in large part because it was the antithesis of its professed values. For better or worse, I am a product of my life experiences--even those which I have rejected or qualified. Identity is not a matter of choice; it is a matter of accumulated experience.

Thanks for helping me think around this complex topic. I think we've reached some interesting conclusions.

“An ironic element of being an American is the frequent belief that one is supra-cultural, which is nonsense as any non-American would quickly note.”

The comical deluge of illegal aliens storming the southern border attests to that. I used to be all for open borders for all of God’s children. Then I married one and discovered that while you can take the girl out of the concrete jungle, you can’t take the concrete jungle out of the girl. People are who they are. All of the cultural memes and traditions come along with the immigrant, including the bad ones that disrupt our native culture.

Tevai brings up a good point about Jewish influence on American culture. The secular crowd would like to disown the religiously derived aspects of their culture, but they are soaking in it. We enjoy the freedoms and protections of the Bill of Rights because of religious traditions passed down over thousands of years.

Maybe it’s the evolution of rugged individualism. American exceptionalism is falling by the wayside, leaving individual sovereignty to take up the slack of what it means to be an American. That’s why the anti-maskers are so militant. It’s all they have left.

If Mormonism is like a family, I am estranged too. It’s ironic for a religion that prides itself on family life. Maybe it was too much like trying to fit into the Addams family. I wasn’t weird enough.

I agree with Lot's Wife. This is a very interesting topic.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> “An ironic element of being an American is the
> frequent belief that one is supra-cultural, which
> is nonsense as any non-American would quickly
> note.”
>
> The comical deluge of illegal aliens storming the
> southern border attests to that. I used to be all
> for open borders for all of God’s children. Then
> I married one and discovered that while you can
> take the girl out of the concrete jungle, you
> can’t take the concrete jungle out of the girl.
> People are who they are. All of the cultural memes
> and traditions come along with the immigrant,
> including the bad ones that disrupt our native
> culture.

That last sentence is definitely a judgment call. Whether or not a cultural tradition is good or bad may well depend upon who is doing the judging of that tradition. That said, I do agree with you that when you marry someone, you must learn to accept all of that person, even the parts of that person that you would normally reject.
>
> Tevai brings up a good point about Jewish
> influence on American culture. The secular crowd
> would like to disown the religiously derived
> aspects of their culture, but they are soaking in
> it. We enjoy the freedoms and protections of the
> Bill of Rights because of religious traditions
> passed down over thousands of years.
>
> Maybe it’s the evolution of rugged
> individualism. American exceptionalism is falling
> by the wayside, leaving individual sovereignty to
> take up the slack of what it means to be an
> American. That’s why the anti-maskers are so
> militant. It’s all they have left.

The problem is that rugged individualism in and of itself is a lie. Human beings are social animals--that is why culture is so important to us. To say (as rugged individualism does) that any success you may have is due to your own, and solely your own, hard work, while comforting, is just plain wrong. Luck, other people and even government policies (of all kinds) played roles in allowing you to become successful, whether you recognize it or not.

Also, I should note that being virulently anti-masking is not the only front on which these people are fighting. Look at the battles over abortion, the role of the police in society, gun control, and a host of other political and social issues and you will see the belief in rugged individualism and so-called "traditional" American values raising their heads.

Speaking of traditions, I think it should also be pointed out that traditions, while comforting, are not truth. While they may have been necessary at the times they were created, they are much more resistant to change as time moves forward.
>
> If Mormonism is like a family, I am estranged too.
> It’s ironic for a religion that prides itself on
> family life. Maybe it was too much like trying to
> fit into the Addams family. I wasn’t weird
> enough.

The funny thing about Mormonism, from my perspective as a never-Mo, is how hard it tries to show that its values are the same as those of white American Protestants (WASPS), even when those values (the rugged individualism discussed above, for example) are on the decline.

Lot's Wife wrote in part:

"A Catholic may be an atheist, but she is a Catholic atheist."

Absolutely correct. A great example is that while I don't consider myself to be Roman Catholic anymore, I still very much believe in the concepts of social justice taught to me at the Jesuit college preparatory high school I attended as a teenager.

I'm a boomer and about half the married Jews I know have gentile spouses.

olderelder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a boomer and about half the married Jews I
> know have gentile spouses.

I'm not a boomer, and I agree with your observation.

What is especially interesting to me in these kinds of situations is observing what occurs as the years (and the decades, and the grandchildren) unfold and grow.

Because of Jewish law, outcomes often depend on which gender the gentile parent is, as well as--of course--whether the gentile parent ever converted.

From a human interest standpoint, many fascinating (and often unpredictable) real life stories often subsequently take place, beginning usually about twenty or thirty years after the initial intermarriage.

That's probably true of all marriages since 20-30 years puts people in the mid-life crisis range.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's probably true of all marriages since 20-30
> years puts people in the mid-life crisis range.

True.

The stories I was thinking about are mostly about the offspring, and then THEIR offspring.

All kinds of unexpected plot turns, with various kinds of Jewish twists: making the decision to become a rabbi (or a cantor, or a Jewish academic)....moving permanently to Israel....moving across the world (to Europe or wherever, including in the Americas) to assist descendants from long-ago Jewish ancestry who want to return to their familial roots....deciding to devote the rest of your life to saving animals in need ("here," or in Africa, or wherever) or helping children and adolescents (from anywhere) in need....and on, and on, and on....

Some of these life changes have specifically Jewish content, others do not (but they were often suggested to that person in some way by Jewish life, culture, or teachings).

Lots of unpredictable plot turns in those family stories, and almost all of them are fascinating in themselves.