Three out of three contestants didn’t ring in to answer the question: Who said this is the right place?

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Guest Host, gave the correct response: Who is Brigham Young?

I’ve never heard that BY said “This is the *right* place so I looked it up.

From LDS Living (July 24, 2017):

“Brigham Young saw the Salt Lake Valley for the first time on July 28. **According to the familiar story** [my emphasis], Brigham Young gazed at the view and remarked, “This is the right place; drive on.”

The article goes on to state:

“There is little evidence from the vanguard company that Brigham made this proclamation, however. If he did, it went unrecorded in the contemporary accounts of the event. Though President Young’s exact words on the occasion might not be known, Wilford Woodruff summed up Brigham’s reaction to seeing the valley: “President Young expressed his full satisfaction in the appearance of the valley as a resting place for the Saints and was amply repaid for his journey.”

https://www.ldsliving.com/The-Myth-About-One-of-Brigham-Young-s-Most-Famous-Quotes/s/85936


I know the phrases are essentially the same but wouldn’t you expect that one of the foundational claims of an organization that was founded less than 200 years ago would be accurate, especially as it’s a direct quote by a well-known early leader?

In any case, I’m positive the phrase in common use now is “This is the place” (leaving out the word ‘right’).

I know it seems insignificant. But I like things to be accurate, especially a much-used apparent direct quote.

I guess it’s a little bit snarky for me to feel gratified that none of the very bright and well-read contestants had a clue (inside Jeopardy joke, haha) about one of Mormonism’s most celebrated (by Mormons) early leaders. But I figure it’s the least the church should expect from a most dissatisfied customer. (Another clue: That would be me).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2021 11:45PM by Nightingale.

Play it again, Sam.

“President Young’s exact words on the occasion might not be known”

My 56 wives are gonna kill me if I ask them to walk a step further. I guess this is the place.

To the best of my knowledge he said
"This is the place"
Scouts had already described the location to him and he knew where he wanted to go.
Get it right people

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To the best of my knowledge he said
> "This is the place"

That's what I've always heard. At first I thought the Jeopardy Clue Crew had made a (rare) error and added an extra word ('right').

"This is the place" sounds jazzier than "This is the right place".

But from an LDS source (quoted above) the word 'right' appears to have been in BY's remark.

Except that, according to the same source, BY didn't actually say that phrase, either way.

Makes you wonder what else is inaccurate in Mormon history, doesn't it? (I know. It's an eyebrow-raising amount. That we know of. There's likely more).

But for it to be one of the foundational claims. Likely many would say it's the spirit, not the letter, of the thing.

But I, for one, don't like made-up quotes, especially ones that are meant to pack a punch. If a thing is inspired who needs to make stuff up?

At the MTC, I had several know it all elders from God's Country (Orem) inform me that BY actually said

This place looks like shit.

Who really knows?

Funny thing about my time at the MTC: I heard more swearing cussing and profanity for 2 months than 4 years of casual football locker talk from high school.

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Funny thing about my time at the MTC: I heard more
> swearing cussing and profanity for 2 months than 4
> years of casual football locker talk from high
> school.

This bugged me more than almost anything else about Mormonism. The gulf between what LDS missionaries teach (the set lessons) and how many of them speak and act. At least, the ones I came across, and I met plenty. And also how many preach something they don't themselves believe in.

Without even being in on most of their antics, I saw and heard about them going AWOL in the evenings (i.e. to visit and mingle with investigators), sometimes out of their areas and sometimes overnight even, as well as otherwise completely breaking major rules. I knew several who had affairs with investigators (both male and female missionaries) and heard of many more. When I got upset on learning about this the mishies laughed. Yeah. Funny. I was a dupe and a dope to believe in anyone's sincerity or any of the truth claims of the Mormon Church. The thing I cannot stand above all in life is lies. I saw a lot of lying going on and subsequently have heard of a great deal more. How can you trust a church that teaches its missionaries it's OK to lie to snag a convert? (I know many mishies believe what they are teaching but many do not and are just going through the motions to get along in their Mormon-centric lives). I don't totally blame the missionaries for that, not the young ones anyway. Or anyone who is also duped and is doing what they think is right. One of the most decent and kind missionaries I knew also told lies to get someone into the font. He gave me a long look when he realized I wanted to question what he was telling a prospective convert. I'm still embarrassed and ashamed to recall that I didn't speak up, not wanting to mess up their baptism plans. He explained to me after that as long as everything works out it's all good. I don't think even the Mormon scriptures say that lying is an acceptable method of conversion. (Do they?)

I'm not a saint myself. I let mishies I knew come over to my place to watch basketball playoffs (one was a star basketball player at school before being rudely interrupted by having to go on a mission). I felt sorry that their lives were so constrained by an all-encompassing church and didn't think it was doing any harm if they wanted to take a night or three off and just be kids watching the game. One evening the senior companion asked if he could use my bath. Sounds benign, and it was, but it still kind of shocks me that he would let loose so much. And trust me so much. He luxuriated in my tub for a long time, even using bubble bath, haha. And called me and his comp into the bathroom to take a picture! OK, so I was a little bit shocked. And he was the ZL. He went home and married his love and I hope they prospered and are happy. Even more I hope they're out of the church, if that's what they want. He was only one of many missionaries who told me they were only doing what they were expected to do by going on a mission. Putting in their time. Like a prisoner would say.

So, I don't have a lot of room to criticize as I broke rules too or was around when they were being broken. But the intense (and sometimes foolish) constraints of the mission life seriously bugged me, on their behalf. And I was shocked to meet so many so-called missionaries who didn't even believe in what they were expected to preach. That is beyond the pale to me. And I didn't personally break any moral rules. Found out about some incidents of that and was *not* OK with it. There's a limit to how much hypocrisy I can stomach. How can you preach the gospel (in whatever iteration) and then cross the widest lines. (Not OK in the sense that it was so far beyond the boundaries and was a far bigger lie than I could feel comfortable about. Not that I intended to judge anyone but going that far over the line was a bit much for me).

So. Yeah. I'm sorry now on this beautiful Saturday when I'm going out to my sister's birthday lunch that I've remembered this, one of the most distressing experiences of my Mormon interlude.


**Re going out for lunch and the pandemic - a lot of restrictions here in B.C. were lifted on July 1 (Happy Canada Day!) so we can go out and about with more freedom now. Plus sis and I are both fully vaxxed and staff in these places and most shops still wear masks (and so do we) so we feel fairly safe. Besides, they have air conditioning and I'm looking forward to the big chill for a while - it's still so hot here - and fire danger is stuck at 'high'. Not in the urban area where I am but in several towns and cities around the province. Also, there was a brush fire the other day just down the street from me. That was scary for a time. I've got my emergency kit nearby, a necessity these days for all sorts of reasons and I'm a bit rattled at times wondering how fast I can get out and where I'd go and could I take my car. But many others have it way, way more difficult so I'll shut up now. Just wanted to say we're good to go and celebrate a birthday, no worries.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2021 04:59PM by Nightingale.

So now I'm feeling bad for being judgemental. I realize that young missionaries, especially males, feel compelled (understatement) to meet family and church expectations by completing a mission. Whatever mission rules they break is their business and not mine to judge. Many feel trapped and think they don't have a choice but to obey. The LDS program eats up a third or a quarter of their lives before they can take a breath.

If a person is under compulsion they will do what they must to survive.

I was very upset one day to learn from a missionary DL about a significant number of elders being sent home for having sexual relationships with investigators. He was surprised that I was shocked and upset. I know. I was naive.

I thought they should live the words they preached, especially as joining Mormonism is such a change in people's lives and can have a significant impact. Then find out the mishies are just parrots, teaching by rote and counting the days until they're behind the wheel of the car their parents promised them if they completed their 'honourable' mission. Because they're young, likely sheltered (especially if they're from Utah) and are accustomed to doing what they're told. Even the star basketball player, enduring a two-year interruption to whatever education or career he may have (as all mishies do), shrugged when I expressed dismay on his behalf and said "no choice". That's what's so unfortunate. That after living through the Mormon program since birth, so many young Mormons think there is no choice but to follow and obey.

I have focused on the wrong people to criticize and judge in my post above and I'm sorry for being thoughtless, lost in some of my unhappy memories of the Mormon interlude. The responsibility lies with Mormon bigwigs. They have got to know it's a crock. And yet they persist.

Speaking of Big Lies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2021 06:49PM by Nightingale.

I'm not sure if it is on the monument or what is on it. Been a long time since I was there. I've heard it both ways.

And I'd be surprised if any of them remember exactly what was said. I'd assume they were a bit WEARY.

Ha. Yeah. Nobody remembers. Nobody wrote it down at the time, you wouldn't think. Would anyone realize the significance that would be placed on it?

Even the LDS source I indicated above acknowledges, in effect, that nobody really knows, and that BY didn't actually say that. And Mormons think it's a precious piece of their history. Sad.

I'm interested, though, in how Jeopardy found that quote that uses the words "right place" when those are not the words most people think were uttered by BY, in our day anyway, it seems. The question of whether that phrase was even actually uttered is never going to be answered for certain now.

It doesn't matter. It's insignificant in the face of other issues. But I like words and notice them and that one got me curious.

Nightingale, did you get to find the game on tv? Hopefully you will be able to put the memory of this behind you by tomorrow for the big game. Come on the three lions.

Hi kentish: Yes! I was just looking for the thread where you posted your comment about the soccer to say I appreciated it. I'll have to be sure and look up the times so I don't miss it tomorrow. They said Sunday morning, I think, but I have to watch the time difference (we're 8 hrs behind them). If I miss the game live I will hear the results before I see the re-run. I don't like that. Although it soothes the nerves if I accidentally find out, as long as England wins.

It's been a hectic week for the sports. I'm not getting anything else done. Hockey (sob - Canada lost), Wimbledon tennis (sob - the Canadian player lost in the quarters) and now footie (yay Lions). I won't be going out this Sunday, for sure. I read that the England side is destined to win. I hope so! It's been a while.

If I recall it right, you Anglophiles last got your kicks in 1966.

You are correct.

So. It's time. :)

England rulz 2021 okay!

It is 3pm eastern time. Not sure if that is kickoff time or preamble time. That would be 1pm here in Idaho and 12 where you ate, Nightingale.

My pre tournament favorite to win was Italy so it is one time when I would be happy to be wrong. Shades of 1966 the last summer I spent in England and was able to attend a couple of games, including the semi final win against Portugal.

"For Harry, England, and St. George" and "England expects every man will do his duty." and all that.

Thanks for the time check, Kentish. I'll be there. Enjoy!

I did enjoy the game but not the ultimate result. On balance I would rather see a loss like 3-0 than lose on a shoot out. I guess games can't go on forever. I look on the positives, the England team has been in the semi final of the WC and the final of Euros within the space of a couple of years. The average age of the team is quite low so there is a lot of hope for the WC next yesr. If they could only find a creative mid fielder to distribute the ball and perhaps a more creative coach who does not pile enormous pressure on a raw 19 year old to take a crucial penalty.

Yeah, kentish, that was brutal. Yet seemed inevitable. Because any team I root for usually loses!

The first goal was like soccer ballet. Hard to think of a more beautiful dance ending in a quick goal. But. Then there were 88 more minutes in which to get more and prevent any goals against. Not an easy ask, I know. I didn't expect Italy to fold. And they didn't. I could barely take the extra period. And the shootouts are always a letdown as a way to finish. Especially when your team doesn't come out on top. I wish they could just play on until someone scores. Maybe some teams try to get a shootout even?

The Italian goalkeeper is enormous. He could span the entire goal mouth just by stretching out his arms, it looked like. By comparison the England keeper looked tiny, in a yawning space.

Why could England give us such a pretty goal early to settle our nerves and then not find a way to net a security point?

I know it's a tough ask but they looked great with their passing and formations yet couldn't repeat the early score. I love the game the most when the line is flying down the field. And scoring, of course.

I didn't realize how many fans would be allowed in. I saw few masks. Superspreader? I sure hope not.

I was dismayed to see the unholy mess they left behind on the grounds. Haven't they ever heard of recycling, or garbage bins? Or taking your mess with you?

It was also disappointing to see many of the England players taking off their runner-up medals at the end. I don't know why they did that but it looked like poor sportsmanship. Too bad to end it that way.

Not to sound like a bitter loser myself but wow, some of the Italy players were committing terrible fouls, not all of which were punished. One of the worst was one player pushing an England player roughly aside and then grabbing his shirt collar and pulling, as if trying to choke him. At least he got a yellow card for that. Another clawed an England player on the thigh with his spikes. And many more similar infractions. Too bad a team that plays that way ends up winning.

As for bad endings: Today it is reported that the three players who didn't score in the shootout have been the targets of racist abuse online. Despicable. Beyond words. It's a game, people. And they are young players. Give them a chance. After the game one of the play-by-play guys said that the miss by the last kicker (19 yrs old, who had only been on the pitch for the final few minutes of the game) will haunt him for his whole career. I hope not. I hope he will get plenty of chances to prove his skill.

England players have campaigned for social/racial justice, which they show in part by taking a knee before a game. The Italy team and the referee did also before this Euro final. Some fans don't like it.

From a New York Times article today:

"Mr. Southgate, [England coach] however, has been unstinting in his support of his socially minded players. In a “Dear England” letter published on a sports website last month, he wrote that young people would inevitably have a different view of being English than people of his generation.

“On this island, we have a desire to protect our values and traditions — as we should — but that shouldn’t come at the expense of introspection and progress,” Mr. Southgate said. “It’s clear to me that we are heading for a much more tolerant and understanding society, and I know our lads will be a big part of that.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/12/world/europe/england-european-championships-racism.html


This glimpse of controversy in England and the Euro Cup soccer reflects some of the recent RfM topics on racism and some of the apparent reasons for it.

It seems to be getting worse. Or more apparent. Or more widely covered. At least the hopeful effect may be a move towards more equality. And/or eventually the dinosaurs die out?

Too bad it enters sports. Kind of takes the wind out of the sails.

But the fight goes on. I thought it was my generation that was going to fix everything. Uh....

A couple of thoughts. It is not uncommon these days for second place finishers to remove their medals and England players are not the first to do it. It happens often.

I have been critical of the England manager in the past as not being up to the job, though a semi final place in the last World Cup and a final in the Euros quieted the criticism. He is a very conservative coach who fielded a team heavily built on the defensive side and he failed to adapt when Italy changed up in the second half, especially not bringing in the most inform midfielder, Grealish until very late in regulation time.

Then, when it was clear the game was going into penalties he brought in two players in the final minute or so who had had no involvement in the game. Rashford, a 23 year old Manchester United Player had not featured much in the tournament and unquestionably should have done better, and Sancho, a very bright but younger prospect who played in one game this tournament and had no experience of such pressure situations: something compounded by giving the last crucial penalty to a 19 year old Saka who should never have been put in that situation. Why didn't senior and more experienced players like Sterling and Grealish take the kicks? Why was Henderson, a designated and experienced penalty taker for top team Liverpool, taken off in favor of these youngsters? Southgate has never managed a top club and would hardly qualify to manage one should a vacancy occur.


I could go on. To play a very good Italy team to a stalemate over 120 minutes to see it end this way is disappointing in t he least. Thank heavens I have Liverpool to cheer for when the Premier League starts up late August early September.

You're right. England played a very defense-minded game, and there was absolutely no reason to bring in the inexperienced players for the penalties. Fresh legs may be good for late in regulation and/or overtime but you don't need them for penalty shots, where expertise and experience are all that matters. The outcome represented a failure of judgment as well as courage.

England nonetheless put on a great performance during the tournament, a fact that should become apparent after the disappointment wanes.

I always seem to root for the teams that do defence way more than offence. Our home soccer team is like that. It can be aggravating for fans. Of course it's enjoyable to see plenty of goals and obviously, to win. So I'm in favour of the shoot and score method of play. :)

Too bad England scored so early (2-minute mark) and then largely reverted to protecting that slim lead. Maybe they'll change it up for next time.

Interesting, kentish. Thanks for all the insights from a much more seasoned fan than I am. I only watch the big games and don't know the daily ins and outs of most of it.

I haven't seen anyone before in any sport taking off their runner-up medals. I thought it was discourteous. But oh well. If that's what they do now.

Yeah, the whole penalty kick thing was a big fat letdown. I thought there was some specific reason those particular players had to take the shots. I didn't realize the manager actually chose them to do it. But it started, as you say, when he substituted them so late and I read that one of them hadn't even kicked the ball before he had to take the penalty shot.

I had read that Grealish was a great player and I wondered why he was sitting out most of the game. When he was substituted in I was happy, thinking he would do some magic. Then he gets jabbed by metal spikes from that Italy guy, on purpose, and that set him back a bit. Then they just ran out of time. (Funny thing to say when the game went long).

Too, I heard one of the commentators say how good Grealish is and that he should be on the field. Some of the choices are kind of inexplicable, it seems.

I agree - I want to see them abolish penalty kicks and just play til one side drops. Easy for me to say - I could never do well at soccer as it was a chore for me to run up and down the field so much. I'm better at badminton, with a cute little racket, a small court and not much demand for running.

Oh well, such is Euro 2020. In the books. Gotta move on. And hope for something great next time. It was fun that England did so well in the tourney.

Brigham was head Mormon long before another leader would say that being Mormon was bad. Still accounts differ. Did he say, "This is the right fricken place" or did he say "This is the right honkin place"?

And no one knows what he was thinking. Maybe something like, "This God forsaken place is perfect for me to show these sheep who is the boss of bosses!"