Virus don’t have brains, yet they mutate into different variants quicker than we can get vaccines administered, much less, approved. They are not even technically ’alive’ since they cannot reproduce by themselves, without a host, as far as we know.

They are not even cells and have none of the cell’s anatomy, except RNA, protected by a protein shell and motor proteins used to perform surgery on DNA of hosts. They have some motor functions and capability to distinguish their particular host cells.

Yet somehow, we still have yet to find a cure for the common cold virus, much less Covid 19. Now we have a Delta, Lambda and Zeta variant and no idea how to stop this brainless menace.

We have an idea how to stop it. With a high percentage of the population vaccinated asap the virus has far fewer hosts to infect and we can snuff it before it has a chance to mutate. If we don't like the virus we really don't like the mutants. Unfortunately, not enough people are vaccinated yet hence all the variants.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We have an idea how to stop it. With a high
> percentage of the population vaccinated asap the
> virus has far fewer hosts to infect and we can
> snuff it before it has a chance to mutate. If we
> don't like the virus we really don't like the
> mutants. Unfortunately, not enough people are
> vaccinated yet hence all the variants.


Why would you think this? This has been clearly false since at least July 27th.

From highly vaccinated Israel, yesterday:

“Of the 6,275 new cases reported Monday, 44.3% were unvaccinated, compared to 54% who were fully vaccinated, and 1.7% who had received one dose of the vaccine.”

“Among seriously ill patients, 36% are not vaccinated, compared to 61% who are fully vaccinated and 3% who received one dose of the vaccine.“

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/311467

"Facts" don't usually live in isolation. You typed, regarding the notion that being vaccinated was useful, that "This has been clearly false since at least July 27th." And then went on to quote the cited article:

> Among seriously ill patients,
> 36% are not vaccinated, compared
> to 61% who are fully vaccinated
> and 3% who received one dose of
> the vaccine.

All we know right now is that these data points appear to exist. I, as complete a non-scientist as might exist, immediately sees a problem in trusting this information:  Why does only getting one of the two jabs appear to give you more protection than getting both jabs?  Why is there an apparent 58% higher chance of getting Covid if I only get one shot, versus both shots?

So rather than NG being "... clearly false since at least July 27th", maybe there's something else going on?  

Yeah, something is going on in Israel but it's just a datum of data and the majority of the other data point in a different direction.



("a datum of data" belongs in a love song...)

There are many data points out there saying the same thing, that was just yesterday’s from one highly vaccinated country. The earlier Massachusetts data (I left here somewhere) is interesting because Mass. has an even more successful vaccination rate than Israel, per John Hopkins.

The idea of herd immunity is dead. The director of the Oxford Vaccine Group, Andrew Pollard, informed GB Parliament yesterday (or the day before) of such, in no uncertain terms. And he poo-pooed the idea of a 3rd jab for what I think are obvious reasons. Nonetheless, he still strongly encourages world vaccination.


The idea of herd immunity and vaccinating ourselves out of this crisis was challenged by very respectable people from the very start, but of course those challenges were suppressed or outright censored. The gullible talk about “conspiracy theories”. Of course, that is not how science works. Open communication and the free flow of information are essential to its functioning.

As I’ve said from the beginning: we’ll see. This is ongoing and will change and will probably keep surprising us.

  

By the way, the one-vax number in the Israel data is because the vast majority of the vaxxed pop. is double vaxxed:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/region/israel


(The surprise I’d LOVE to see is a stoppage to the proclivity of citizens putting their fellow citizens into boxes and then wishing them dead. But I won’t hold my breath on that one.)

Mayo Clinic re herd immunity, June 2021:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808


Excerpts:

“Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community (the herd) becomes immune to a disease, making the spread of disease from person to person unlikely. As a result, the whole community becomes protected — not just those who are immune.

“What percentage of a community needs to be immune in order to achieve herd immunity? It varies from disease to disease. The more contagious a disease is, the greater the proportion of the population that needs to be immune to the disease to stop its spread. For example, the measles is a highly contagious illness. It's estimated that 94% of the population must be immune to interrupt the chain of transmission.

“How is herd immunity achieved?

“There are two main paths to herd immunity for COVID-19 — infection and vaccines.”


There are nuances further explained in the article. Each statement above should not be taken in isolation but with an abundance of related information.


NYT article, July 2021:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/03/health/covid-herd-immunity-vaccine.html


Excerpts:

“Now, more than half of adults in the United States have been inoculated with at least one dose of a vaccine. But daily vaccination rates are slipping, and there is widespread consensus among scientists and public health experts that the herd immunity threshold is not attainable — at least not in the foreseeable future, and perhaps not ever.

“Instead, they are coming to the conclusion that rather than making a long-promised exit, the virus will most likely become a manageable threat that will continue to circulate in the United States for years to come, still causing hospitalizations and deaths but in much smaller numbers.”

-----

Experts strongly encourage everyone who can be vaccinated to receive their two doses. With a high percentage of vaccinated individuals this helps protect those who can’t be vaccinated.

It’s true that recommendations can change as more information is gleaned from experience as we go along.


CBC article, July 26, 2021:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/covid-19-unvaccinated-final-push-herd-immunity-delta-1.6113769


Excerpts:

“Like the last leg of a marathon, public health officials say reaching the final segment of the unvaccinated population will be a grind as Ottawa tries to attain herd immunity — when enough of the population is protected against COVID-19.

“The city of Ottawa has set a daunting target to fully vaccinate 90 per cent of its population, including those still not eligible to be vaccinated, which has eluded most regions around the world.

“As of July 23, 73 per cent of the city's entire population had received at least one dose of vaccine, slightly higher than the Ontario rate of 69 per cent, and one of the highest vaccination rates for first doses among cities around the world.

“Ontario's first-shot vaccination rate has dropped from a high of six per cent per week in May to below one per cent in July, and it continues to trend downward. That means it will take longer to inoculate the remaining portion of the unvaccinated population — likely a venture that continues into 2022.

"I think I can't understate how important it is to get very high levels of vaccination," said Dr. Trevor Arnason of Ottawa Public Health.

"If we head into the fall with vaccination where it is now, we're definitely going to see outbreaks."

“Ontario, which has now been in Stage 3 of the reopening plan for 10 days, must reach 80 per cent of its eligible population with at least one dose, and 75 per cent with both doses, to consider removing all public health restrictions.

“Some public health experts believe that target is not high enough due to the growing number of cases of the delta variant and the potential for breakthrough cases.

"We need to establish herd immunity, and we would need to be at a higher level: 85, 90 per cent vaccination rates," explained Dr. Paul Roumeliotis, the medical officer of health for the Eastern Ontario Health Unit, who also heads a group of public health units across Ontario.

“Roumeliotis and Arnason say restrictions could return in the fall if delta spreads, even if they're not as strict as those we've seen throughout the pandemic. Ontario public health officials hope to avoid a spike in cases seen during the reopening in the U.K., Israel, and the United States.”

-----

We’re still talking about trying to achieve herd immunity in Canada.

Not being able to get there due to low rates of vaccination is different from concluding that herd immunity is not desirable or attainable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2021 01:06PM by Nightingale.

Several points:

Technically, we can't reproduce by ourselves either. LDS Inc even interrogates its youths to discourage them from trying. With limited success.

>Now we have a Delta, Lambda and Zeta variant and no idea how to stop this brainless menace.

I'll take your word for it on the greek alphabet soup. We certainly do have ideas on how to stop this brainless menace. No brain of any sort has ever been required for mutations, though our brains have dramatically sped up potential mutation by being able to read and splice genes now, an astonishing trick.

Third, they are not "outsmarting" us. They are conducting a random walk, and the vast vast majority of their mutations are either neutral or produce a less dangerous form of the virus. In the trillions upon trillions of viruses reproduced, some are more dangerous. We are well aware of the process, and how to slow it down. They are no more outsmarting us than does a mine cave-in outsmart the miners. It's just physics, chemistry and probablility.

It's not a question of "smart" or "outsmarting."

The vast majority of lethal things have no nervous systems; they just are. Forest fires, earthquakes, tidal waves, lightning bolts, heart disease, passing comets or asteroids, the possible eventual implosion of the universe.

All those things are the results of scientific laws interacting in various ways. Viruses are the same: they are particles that evolve thoughtlessly in accordance with the laws of nature.

In short, you are anthropomorphizing processes and thereby distorting them. In a random cosmos, your death will most probably result from chance events. There is no "brain" or "thought" involved.

Damn, BOJ, way to go, stealing my thunder 'n such.

If I'd typed a little faster, I could have saved you some work.

then there is no 'thought' involved in thinking either

mind is both everything & nothing

What does that mean?

> and no idea how to stop
> this brainless menace.


Lots of people have ideas!

If I haven't gotten a cold, the flu, or any of the current Covid virii, can I claim to be smarter, to have risen above being 'outsmarted'?

I bought and used masks and disinfectants and limited my exposure to humans, and then got vaccinated...

What prohibits me from declaring myself smarter than the average virus?



And it's not too difficult to note some differences between this outbreak and the 1918 epidemic, based on 'traffic flow', which I think really complicates having the various virii die out.

It might even be fair to say that a smart virus isn't the major propellant, but rather dumb people.

But that's just an opinion.  Don't go quoting me to the press!  I'm no scientist, just an average-manist

> It might even be fair to say that a smart virus
> isn't the major propellant, but rather dumb
> people.

Yeah, it might be fair to say.

outdumbing something that has no brain is quite the accomplishment

I think that is technically called a "no brainer".

oh ye of sharp wit :-D

I thought we weren't allowed to talk politics any more.

How is a virus political?

Haha ha Good one!

Kind of makes you realize how something infinitely minute could turn into something as magnificently horrible as a human being in a few billion years.

There are a gazillion things that are much more powerful than a brain. And a human brain is probably the last to understand the how of it all, so why ask?

Are we talking about penises?

Nature hates us.

Mother Nature, er . . . I mean God, just wants to survive.

I meant---survive *us*. We are the enemy. We are what the Earth needs the least. Nature just wants to stop us from spreading to the Universe.

One excellent reason for believing in deities is that when your side wins, whatever it took to win, you were just following orders...

Leave it to you to go to the Dark Matter side.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One excellent reason for believing in deities is
> that when your side wins, whatever it took to win,
> you were just following orders...

And when you lose, whatever it took to lose, you were just following orders...

And there, in that lack of culpability for collective irresponsibility, you have a great reason for everyone to follow the herd.

He's all about heard immunity.

In many cases "heard immunity" works as a defense in court. Sad!

Convenient, that.

My deity made me do it! Flip knew.

Like the line of cars behind an accident.

speaking of 'outsmarting' always metaphorically, it outsmarts its host by speed and sheer numbers

but ultimately yes, it's essentially a computer program that takes over a host cell

humans are just organizations of trillions of cells, like any other living thing, and a susceptible host as any for one type of intruder or another

ironically it may be the vaccinated who are providing a pool for the evolution of covid, just as we got 'antibiotic resistant bacteria' from people who used antibiotics (via the docs who overprescribed them), not from people who *didn't* use antibiotics. This is not a comparison of bacteria & viruses (I know they are two different organisms) but simply an example of how natural selection works.

Vaccinated people can stave off the typical or weaker variants of covid, while new variants evolve in their arms race against the vaccine antibodies

Onanymous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ironically it may be the vaccinated who are
> providing a pool for the evolution of covid

This ranks right up there with your claim that the mind is everything and nothing. It makes for great meditation but lousy science.

> ironically it may be the vaccinated who are
> providing a pool for the evolution of covid

Well yeah, if the unvaccinated die off, only the vaccinated survivors are available to provide a pool for evolution. Ironic?

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ironic?

Somehow I doubt it.

"ironically it may be the vaccinated who are providing a pool for the evolution of covid"


And that is why polio and smallpox continue to be such a scourge in the US in the 21st century…

/s

Watching US news clips on Youtube and it stands out in the present narrative that the spread is where people in general seem not think critically.

Hahaha.

You have no idea how accurate your impression is.

Hopefully it is not the norm. Looking really bad at some places. Some states will see their health care collapse.

But is sad that it is the first distinct impression I feel watching the clips. No one is thinking.

Think critically? Some seem to seek out the most bat crap crazy and pick it over common sense.

Looking at a ABC News clip right now. A crowd protesting health care workers that want people to wear masks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNned1RG63s

What is shocking is not that these selfish, non critical thinking, exist here, but that there are so many of them. Staggering how large the number is here, how big the percentage of people who have politicized this emergency situation and have no problem playing Russian Roulette with theirs and other's lives.

Oh Susan. You make me realize that actually sense doesn't seem to be very common anymore.

Where has all the reason gone? Long time passing . . .

I know D&D. A friend of an acquaintance said today that they believe some yahoo with a podcast over the CDC. Yahoo has ZERO medical training let alone in virology. You can point to 100 facts but their minds are made up.

I think this is a particularly nice version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgXNVA9ngx8

Don't kid yourself.....you're not outsmarting anyone :)

CNN reported today about the chaotic school board meeting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrDLbZxKIyY

"TAKE THE MASK OFF. WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE!"

Extremely disturbing. I wish I could say I was shocked but the U.S. is full of those types now.

Some people vehemently protest against mask mandates, citing their great desire to uphold their freedom of choice, yet they demand that others TAKE OFF their masks.

Double standard, to say the least.

It seems that increasing numbers of people are beyond reason now.**

Scary indeed.


**By saying "beyond reason" I mean that their stated principles ("freedom of choice", therefore disregarding public safety mandates and recommendations) aren't applied by them across the board. That is, what they demand for themselves they don't extend to others. *They* want the "freedom" to disdain masks yet don't extend the freedom to others who choose to use masks.

I don't see at this point how you can reason with someone so entirely invested in their choice to ignore medical advice or even safety requirements.

I do continue to try and discuss the issues with those who are at least somewhat open to considering new information/recommendations.

Well said. The future is not looking bright.

That crowd was so close to throwing punches I can't believe they didn't.

I wanted to mention that I didn't intend to indicate ALL "anti" people above. I was thinking of the ones who act like those in the video, threatening fellow parents and others who are choosing to wear masks in a crowd, as strongly recommended by public health and physicians. Too, as an aside, they aren't altogether all that courteous towards the police officers who are trying to keep the peace and assist a citizen to leave the parking lot as he is being threatened and his exit blocked by screaming, maskless people objecting to him wearing a mask. Seriously unbelievable behaviour. Not only do they not observe the simple public health measure of masking up in a crowd, en masse they yell right in people's faces, potentially spreading the virus should the yeller be infected unawares.

I understand having questions and feeling leery about something new and the seeming "learn as we go" approach that was necessary due to all the various aspects of a new virus and a pandemic. I was not thrilled at the news of mask mandates way back in the beginning, even though I was used to wearing them as a nurse, but it was different being out and about shopping while masked up - I felt shy about it at first until it became more prevalent here. Who wants to stand out in a crowd (in the usual situations - this one was highly unusual in my lifetime anyway). Too, I'm quite claustrophobic already. In crowded transit situations, for instance, the mask added to the incipient panic I sometimes feel - I always need a way out. Now, in the record-breaking heat we're experiencing this summer that adds to the restrictive feelings. However, there are ways around that tiny inconvenience or occasional discomfort. And whatever I have to do to avoid infection is way, way better than falling ill with a killer virus. Absolutely.

Back to the school meeting. Sheesh. Parents are supposed to be good examples for the kids. Big fail there.

" . . .they aren't altogether all that courteous towards the police officers who are trying to keep the peace and assist a citizen to leave the parking lot . . . "

You should be a diplomat, Nightingale. I have another way to say it, haha.

NG is a very politic writer, isn't she!

Ha, you guys. I know I'm too soft. But when the occasion calls I can get in your face. (Maybe).

In the case above, I was actually aiming for irony re the roiling crowd ignoring the officers, or worse.

However, it's not humourous at all, of course. I can't actually stand inconsistency. People consider they're the good guys and yet they cause problems for police trying to do their jobs. Does not compute.

I've been a volunteer at two different city police departments. Also, the guy who intro'd me to Mormonism was a cop. I guess I don't really hold that against him, much. I did admire how he did his extra-demanding job (dog guy). You get to see the officers close up on and off duty and the bird's eye view of the tough demands of their profession. Regular citizens causing them problems is something they really don't need. There's enough of the bad guys out there. In the midst of a volatile situation, if you (one of the supposed "good" guys) are not following police instructions and/or if you're making the situation worse by your words or actions, you have jumped over the line to hang with the bad guys. Too, you're taking police time and attention that is better deployed elsewhere except you're causing a scene and they can't leave. Also, they want to get home to their families at the end of their shift, obviously. How can you be a law-and-order promoter and yet ignore laws and cause grief for police?

Riddle me that you loud-mouthed bullies (referring to those at the school meeting and anyone like them in whatever situation).

Hypocrites. For those in that crowd who think they're on God's side, may I just say that He makes clear what he thinks of hypocrites:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean."


These people don't even look beautiful to me on the outside. The inside is likely worse.

Where I work our Boss just told all employees, and our vendors, we have to get vaccinated or we will get fired! This caused so much consternation and confusion the Boss quit answering the phone but he is not backing down.
Turns out our ‘vendors’ include lessors, who own the buildings we lease for our employees. So #1 question is,”How are we going to force lessors to get vaccinated?”
Now we have to go and add an addendum to thousands of leases across the State. And if lessors don’t want to sign the addendum w/o a ridiculously high fee? What then? Move out?
Then what if nobody wants to lease space to a tenant that demands lessors take an unapproved vaccine? I guess we can plan on remote work from now on!

> . . . an unapproved vaccine. . .

There it is, the falsehood masquerading as truth.

I resent being accused of being brainless! You used to be a Mormon, and I'M the one without a brain?