It was all for nothing.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/08/15/world/taliban-afghanistan-news

Worse than nothing. Now the US is in the position of asking the Taliban for safe passage to leave. How bad is that.

American commanders said it would take 18 months to overtake the Afghanistan army, it took only a couple of weeks.

Military intelligence at its best.

Actually, the intelligence services said the Taliban would conquer the entire country within 1-3 months. The truth turns out to have been closer to two weeks, but no one was saying 18 months.

I got the article from here
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/14/us/afghanistan-biden.html
Who knows was is really accurate.

Here's information from a week ago, summaries of one intelligence report saying Kabul would fall in 30-60 days and another putting its expectancy at 90 days.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/11/politics/afghanistan-intelligence-assessments-kabul-taliban/index.html

I can't read the NYT article you referenced, but if it says the intelligence agencies predicted Kabul could hold out for 18 months it is incorrect. This was a political decision reached over the warnings of military and non-military intelligence.

And we have left hundreds of women who worked for women's rights who will now be tortured and raped daily until they die.

Reports from independent reporters in recent weeks say that as the Taliban took over villages they went door-to-door and took as many females as they wanted down to age 12 and have been forcibly marrying them to Taliban men.

These girls will be used as breeders to supply a constant source of brainwashed Extremist fighters to conduct terrorist attacks in whichever country they choose to target as #1 to take down.

Age 12 to age 40 at at least 1 baby per year = 28 babies per girl.

Afghanistan: Former child bride’s ears hacked off by husband for speaking to other men

Feb 2, 2017 By Christine Douglass-Williams

A former child bride has had her ears hacked off by her husband after he accused her of speaking to other men.

Reza Gul had her nose sliced off by her husband in an attack in January last year.

The girls and women of Afghanistan...

And all that super-secret military equipment including

Taliban seizes $6,000,000 US Blackhawk helicopters on 14 Aug 2021.

Tons of Military Equipment going to Known Terrorists

Guess who it will be used against? YOU

> Guess who it will be used against? YOU


You make the Afghan warriors sound positively American!  ...running around attacking other countries and such!


If I were Asian or Black, living in America, and some rednecks decided to mess with me, I'd go, "Look! Afghans!  Wearing Taliban t-shirts!!!", and then I'd run away when they turned to look for America's newest bete noire...


I'm woefully ignorant with regard to facts surrounding the birth, growth, and goals of The Students (the Taliban), but I think, from what I read, that the USA signed an agreement with the Taliban a bit ago, promising to remove all American troops from Afghanistan by 9/11/21, in exchange for the Taliban's promise not to attack said American troops.

And I recall reading a news article about how the American-supported Afghan regime would wipe the floor with the Taliban, because they, the supported regime, possess planes and helicopters and have received American training...  I recall that was printed less than a week ago.  So it definitely was not inspired prophecy.

Is there any documentation that the Taliban intends to attack Americans on the American continent?  They may have the true religion, but we are, after all, the GREAT Satan!  Why would they mess with us on our own turf?   I'm not aware of any ties between the Taliban and 9/11... I'm sure they cheered but were they involved in any part of the planning or implementation?

If you're saying that we, Americans, will be attacked by the same equipment we left behind, are you saying that Taliban warriors will be using that equipment, or that the Taliban will sell or give it away to those with American invasion in mind?  What if they just hang on to it, with the Chinese in mind?



In the 50s & 60s, it was suggested that I learn Russian...Then Mandarin..., now Arabic?

I'm thinking that I'm going to learn Canadian!  If they ever succeed in weaponizing maple syrup . . .




(Hey, I just enjoy stirring things up...  And hey, I could easily pass for Afghani...although I would prefer to be called Afghanezean.)

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm woefully ignorant with regard to facts
> surrounding the birth, growth, and goals of The
> Students (the Taliban), but I think, from what I
> read, that the USA signed an agreement with the
> Taliban a bit ago, promising to remove all
> American troops from Afghanistan by 9/11/21, in
> exchange for the Taliban's promise not to attack
> said American troops.

You were correct. However, President Biden said (about a month ago I think) that all U.S. troops would be out of Afghanistan by August 31.

> Is there any documentation that the Taliban
> intends to attack Americans on the American
> continent?  They may have the true religion, but
> we are, after all, the GREAT Satan!  Why would
> they mess with us on our own turf?   I'm not
> aware of any ties between the Taliban and 9/11...
> I'm sure they cheered but were they involved in
> any part of the planning or implementation?

After 9/11, then U.S.-president George Bush Jr. accused the Taliban of harboring people suspected by the U.S. of being involved with al-Qaida, the group that masterminded the terrors of 9/11. According to Pacifica news host Amy Goodman at the time, President Bush demanded that the Taliban surrender these people to U.S. authorities to be held at Guantanamo. The Taliban refused and offered to instead send the suspects to a third neutral country that could look at all of the evidence before determiningg whether or not to extradite them to the U.S. (it is not known who the Taliban considered to be a neutral country). President Bush then decided to send in U.S. troops rather than submit to the demands of the Taliban.

As usual, blindguy has this right. Some of what he says, though, is understated.

Al Qaeda started launching attacks on US interests in the early 1990s. When "encouraged" to leave Saudi Arabia, AQ and its bankers decamped for the Sudan. The US pressured that country, and it eventually expelled the Saudi visitors.

AQ then relocated to Afghanistan, a country where Saudi billions financed much of the government's activities. OBL was in Afghanistan for years before 9/11 was organized, financed, and prepared from control centers in the Kandahar region of southern Afghanistan. By the time of the attacks in NYC, the Taliban and AQ were so deeply intertwined that there was no way the former would expel the latter.

The offer to deliver AQ to a third party for trial was a rhetorical red herring since AQ was too powerful for the Taliban to send out of country. What Kabul wanted to achieve with the offer was to get the US to demand an immediate trial, which would require negotiations lasting months if not years. AQ and 9/11 would soon be in the rear-view mirror and the US willingness to invade much diminished.

There was no alternative to the American invasion: you can't let an enemy continue launching attacks with impunity from a third country. The big mistake came later: the unnecessary invasion of Iraq, which consumed enormous volumes of US money and political influence and thereby reduced the focus on, and investment in, Afghanistan.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2021 06:18PM by Lot's Wife.

There has been virtually no difference between Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Their goals are the same. They believe with all their hearts, souls, and minds that they must devote every second of their lives to eliminating democracy and to eliminating all people who do not follow Wahhabist Islam.

There must be no other religion on the entire planet other than their religion (it is a command of Allah), nor can anyone who is agnostic nor atheist be allowed to live.

I very strongly urge you to read a book written by a former Muslim, who grew up in a Muslim country "Why I am Not A Muslim" by Ibn Warraq https://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Muslim/dp/1591020115

Incidentally, saying he is not now a Muslim is a death sentence for him.

If you have not read the Quran I urge you to do so. Please don't pick up a watered-down English translation. Purchase an official Saudi Arabian version with side-by-side English translation, preferably printed prior to 1982, when the sanitizing began. You can find secondhand copies online.

Not to worry.

Our leaders will take care of us and the rest of the world.

I believe the root of all this started with 9-11, Bush wanted to take revenge, followed by Obama hunting down & capturing O. BL.


Wars, power & property (land, territory) grabbing are the Black Holes of civilization; watch what / where the Russian Bear strikes next, also watch what China does; Hong Kong, anyone?

Full disclosure: I am a dove.

What is the point in spending 3/4 of a trillion dollars per year on the US military if not for this type of thing?

Bait and switch for the Afghan women.

Taliban and any terrorist group they determine now have access to our most advanced weaponry with which they will now exact terror plots against us and our allies. I give it two years, max, before they make a move.

I hope they get the Americans out. I doubt they will.

Very sad. A tragedy.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was all for nothing.
>

Not exactly. Bid Laden is deader than a doornail, as are many of his top associates. Al Qaeda is a shadow of its former self.

Still, there was 20 years of blood and treasure lost, all to see it fall back into the same hands.

Sad day for this nation.

who were funding the Taliban in Pakistan, Russia, China, and the Gulf.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2021 07:16PM by anybody.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> who were funding the Taliban in Pakistan, Russia,
> China, and the Gulf.


No one, including myself, stated al-Qaeda is completely gone. They obviously aren't and present a serious challenge. But when I said "shadow of its former self", that is fact based upon evidence. Much of their leadership, including Bin Laden, is dead or imprisoned. They simply do not have the resources or reach that they did 9/11/2001. (Parenthetically, "War on the Rocks" has an interesting article on the topic: https://warontherocks.com/2021/02/al-qaeda-is-being-hollowed-to-its-core/)

The war in Afghanistan, including the horror we're watching today, is a tragedy. Beyond making Bin Laden assume room temperature, our government didn't have much in the way of a coherent plan for victory, nor, in the final days, could really articulate what "victory" would even be. Trying to transform a society that undeveloped, backwards, and in a constant state of sectarian and tribal warfare into a functional, western-style democracy was Quixotic to put it mildly.

https://www.boredpanda.com/afghanistan-1960-bill-podlich-photography/


When you think of Afghanistan's history, you probably don't think of short skirts, nice cars, and liberal 60s styles, but just as Iran looked very different in the 1970s, these historical pictures show that Afghanistan in the 1960s was a very different country than the one that exists today.

The pictures were taken by American University professor Dr. Bill Podlich, who in 1967 took a two-year leave of absence to work for UNESCO in Afghanistan. He served as the Expert of Principles of Education at the Higher Teachers College in Kabul, and during this time he took many vintage photos of life as it was before the Afghanistan war. The Soviets invaded only a decade later, and Afghanistan was pulled into the war, and following Taliban rule and the US invasion in 2001, the country now bears little resemblance to the peaceful and prosperous nation that you can see in these, now quite sad pictures below.

Yes. Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran were all like that and (at least some of those photos date to 1960) things got even more liberal in the 1970s. In Iranian cities few wore even the Hijab, and women did almost every job men did. The children of American and European diplomats and professors who grew up in those countries in that era were extremely happy and continue to share pleasant stories about that period.

1979 was when everything fell apart. The Iranian Revolution ruined that country, and there was an attempted coup in Saudi Arabia that persuaded the government that it had to get much more Islamist to sustain its power. Part of the new effort was the financing of extremism in other Sunni states. Then, over Christmas, came the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan. Suddenly Central Asia made a sharp turn to the Islamic right, a turn that persists through today.

It's tragic what happened to the birthplace of Sufism and some of the best countries in the world. Truly tragic.

The leaders of the world bicker, the people suffer and the merchants of war get richer.

It has been and always will be.

Plenty of hand wringing and prophecies of doom here but what are the realities of the situation? Was the plan for the United States to be in Afghanistan forever? Regardless of any time table for leaving this was the likely outcome. Sadly another lesson learned (or not) that when you invade a country you'd better haver an exit plan.

Yes I agree. I've been saying this to people for many years, we have to leave at some point. What did people think was going to happen?

I agree. What did people think was going to happen?

One would hope that those Afghanezeans who didn't want to return to the 7th Century got their butts out of Afghanistan before it was too late.

I believe I read that Albanian opened their doors to such individuals. I'm sure the USA is just as willing!

I'm not sure I'd say it was "all for nothing." There was 20 years of security provided by people on the ground working to prevent al Qaeda from gathering the resources to inflict large violent attacks on the US.

For long term security, the US had a vested interest in making the attempt at stabilizing the country and supporting a democratic government. But when that becomes increasingly, demonstrably impossible without continued presence for all foreseeable future, the cost trade, especially in lives, starts to look really bad.

There is certainly a resultant gap in security for the United States and I hope that the people who assess such things have qualified, if not quantified, that risk and determined how to mitigate it. Time will tell.

anybody Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was all for nothing.
===============================

Those of us who wore the uniform fought your wars in the desert for the likes of you
and carried home our dead compatriots thank you for your support

Dr. No Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> anybody Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It was all for nothing.
> ===============================
>
> Those of us who wore the uniform fought your wars
> in the desert for the likes of you
> and carried home our dead compatriots thank you
> for your support


This was not a military failure on the battlefield.
This was a political and strategic error, not a tactical one.

We never went after the people behind the Tailban.

The Russians don't want a country friendly to America on their front porch.

China wants the natural resources and both China and Pakistan don't want an Afghanistan friendly to both America and India.

Players in the Gulf use the Taliban for their own ends -- including jihad against America.

I'm not going to belittle you with a "Thank You For Your Service," but thank you nonetheless.


This was one war that courage, bravery, and honour on the battlefield coudn't win alone.

The Taliban has not been supported by Russia--they emerged from the anti-Soviet coalition--nor by China, which has stayed away till now.

The sources of support are the Gulf Emirates, especially Saudi Arabia, and the intelligence service of Pakistan, ISI. Riyadh supports the Taliban because Afghanistan is a good place to send angry young men with lots of money and because the Saudis want to promote Sunni power as a check on Iran.

ISI supports the Taliban because of what India terms "defense in depth." Pakistan is such a narrow country relative to India that it could be overrun in a week. The Pakistani government/s accordingly decided they needed a close relationship with Afghanistan so that, if invaded, Pakistan could retreat into Afghanistan, regroup, and then resume the war against India. The acquisition of nuclear weaponry that deterred India attenuated that logic somewhat, but Pakistan remains determined to keep Afghanistan in its pocket.

The US ended up tacitly supporting the extremists in the Soviet War because the Saudis were paying for much of the Afghan resistance and ISI would only convey American weaponry to the Islamists whom it wanted to emerge triumphant. The upshot was that after the Soviets abandoned Afghanistan, the strongest warlords in that country were the pro-Saudi and pro-Pakistani extremists who would become the Taliban.

The US is so dependent on the Saudis and the Pakistanis that it tolerated a continuation of their intimate and extensive support for the Taliban against the official government over the last 20 years. It's possible that China will tighten its ties to the Taliban now, but the bottom line is that the United States has been defeated largely by its own allies: Saudi Arabia and Pakistan or, more precisely, the Pakistani intelligence agency, which is very possibly more powerful than the civilian government.

The U.S. has spent 20 years and nearly 3 TRILLION DOLLARS in Afghanistan. Does anyone honestly think another year, or even five, would make any difference? Is it realistic to keep a permanent military presence there?

Is it really 3 trillion? ETA: I'm reading more like $2 trillion on Afghanistan and 4.5 trillion on Iraq. Doesn't detract from your point but it does point to the stupidity of conducting an unnecessary war in Iraq.

My view is that if the US had not invaded Iraq, it could have focused its resources on the really vital country: Afghanistan. An intense effort for 3-10 years after the invasion would have been feasible if it were directed towards building physical, healthcare, educational and other essential infrastructure and training a real bureaucracy. It would have been tough, but the US has done it before. It was the simultaneous war in the much bigger, more expensive, and intractable Iraq that rendered that impossible.

Putting that aside, however, you are right that the status quo could not have continued indefinitely. In today's circumstances staying another five years would not have made any difference. But there's pulling out and there's pulling out. The withdrawal might have been managed in a way that kept US weaponry from Taliban hands and, more importantly, got the people who helped the US out of the country safely. What is happening now is close to the worst case scenario.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2021 10:31PM by Lot's Wife.

The issues you bring up in your post point to one thing, there is never an exit strategy or clearly defined mission. When the first Bush went into Iraq, he left because I believe he knew the US would get bogged down. The US has been in Iraq longer than Afghanistan, what is the exit strategy there?

Now that the US is out of Afghanistan, they can return to their century old tribal wars. Also, the US never stopped the poppy trade so there is plenty of money to buy weaponry. And the US is the biggest consumer of opioids.

moehoward Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The issues you bring up in your post point to one
> thing, there is never an exit strategy or clearly
> defined mission. When the first Bush went into
> Iraq, he left because I believe he knew the US
> would get bogged down.

He was America's last great foreign policy president. The guys since haven't been strategic thinkers.


-------------------------
> The US has been in Iraq
> longer than Afghanistan, what is the exit strategy
> there?

Not quite true. The US left Iraq after the first Gulf War (Kuwait) in the spring of 1991. After a decade of Saddam's independence, the US invaded Afghanistan in late 2001 and Iraq for the second time in early 2003. So the Afghan war (20 years) has been a bit longer than the Iraqi one (18 years).

On the other point you are right. There is no exit strategy for the US involvement in Iraq.


-----------------
> Now that the US is out of Afghanistan, they can
> return to their century old tribal wars.

I'm not sure that's an accurate description of Afghan history. In the 19th and most of the 20th century the country was more stable than most countries. It was run by a coalition of tribes, with national leadership moving between various chieftains, but the country had much less bloodshed than, for example, Europe.

That old system broke down with the rise of a Marxist government in the mid-1970s and then a coup undertaken by a more extreme clique of Marxists in, IIRC, early 1979. The USSR realized that this new group was losing popularity and control very fast and stepped in to crush it before it collapsed on its own and was replaced by an anti-Soviet Islamist government.

Big mistake. The USSR was not able to recreate a more secular state with public support and was soon bogged down as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the US fueled the resistance. In the ensuing decade-long war, the old tribal balance was an early casualty.

Headline : "Top Taliban leaders are among the 5000 that Trump released last year over everyone's objections"

Worked in a factory in the early 2000s and a colleague in another department was later recruited to work within the framework of ISAF. He carried around a large machine gun in the field and was an infantryman. Saw pictures on him from Afghanistan.

I never heard him talk about his experiences later, but the impression out of what I heard from other people around him (take this with a grain of salt beause it is hearsay) was that it felt like almost a hopeless job. One day the troops could visit a village and play football with the kids on the street but when they returned to the same village two days later they found the village completely wiped out by the Talibans. It was told like it was the regular pattern. That is what I have heard. Bit sad about what happened.

I am really glad my husband didn't get deployed to Afghanistan.

I don't see any comfort for the residents of areas held by or in dispute with the Talibans, it's one area that 'I hope' Christ would rule & reign in righteousness...

I don't know of any reasonable successful resolution to the plight of these folks...

As far as the military equipment, the complicated stuff like aircraft need maintenance, sophisticated fuel & supplies & capable skills to keep them operating, I doubt / hope they were sabotaged - before permanently disabled before being abandoned.

Just like the U.S. surrender in Vietnam. I was 15 at the time, happy we had no more draft, feminists were on the Pill, and I wouldn't be slogging through booby trapped rice paddies chasing ghosts in a few years. We got the heroin epidemic imported here in the U.S. from Laos.

President Jerry Ford (1974-75) wanted to start another Vietnam to counter the Soviet and Cuban communists helping to take over newly freed (de-colonized) Angola, but Congress wouldn't fund the adventure.

I wonder where all the Afghani opium poppies' production is going to go? The British used opium to break into Imperial China in the 18th and 19th Century.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2021 03:11AM by snagglepuss.

Chinese fentanyl must really be messing with the opium market.

But hey, war’s over. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=flA5ndOyZbI

Didn’t everyone who was anyone know it was a fool’s errand going in? Apparently, greed is good for defense stocks. But of course we had our fool. Maybe not everyone knew. Lots of guys believed. Pat Tillman believed. Their loved ones drink the bitter dregs once again as their sacrifice is wiped away like a sand mandala.

The military operates as a cult. That’s the best way to explain it to civilians. Totally a cult, nothing you can imagine until you’re in it. Kinda like the Mormons. Kool Aid will get you so far, but then the ugly truth bites you where the sun doesn’t shine.

The world must marvel at the humiliation of the US military, but I see it bracing for the humanitarian crisis. The world’s other powers are already posturing as the cleanup guys, the janitor cleaning up the pile of puke some kid barfed all over the hallway.

Don’t worry, Afghanistan has huge rare earth resources that make the place worth stabilizing. The US just won’t be the ones to do it. That would have been a nice haul, but they couldn’t pull it off. This is definitely not business as usual.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2021 07:43AM by babyloncansuckit.

In another thread, I commented that we were going to run in to a refugee problem in Afghanistan like we did with South Vietnam when we left there. That is true, but I now believe that the number of refugees from Afghanistan will be smaller.

If anyone remembers PBS' "The Last Days of Vietnam," (it's still available on YouTube as well as on PBS' site), there were two ways that refugees left South Vietnam. One was the airlift from the embassy, and the other was by the sea--South Vietnam bordered the South China Sea. Going by memory, a lot more Vietnamese refugees got out by sea than by air.

That second option is not open for Afghanistan. Again, going by memory, the country is landlocked, and one has to pass through other Arab countries to get to the sea. Moreover, many of the countries that border Afghanistan--Pakistan, Russia, Iran, and the Arab emirates--are much more tolerant, if not downright supportive, of the Taliban, meaning that escaping overland will be tenuous at best. In practice, what this means is that pretty much all of the Afghani refugees that the United States gets will come strictly from the airlift and how long those planes continue to fly.

blindguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That second option is not open for Afghanistan.
> Again, going by memory, the country is landlocked,
> and one has to pass through other Arab countries
> to get to the sea.

Afghanistan is not an Arab country. There are Pashtuns (like northwestern Pakistan, several Farsi-speaking groups, etc., populations from Central Asia, but no Arabs. Nor are any of the surrounding countries Arab.


------------------
> Moreover, many of the countries
> that border Afghanistan--Pakistan, Russia, Iran,
> and the Arab emirates--are much more tolerant, if
> not downright supportive, of the Taliban,

Disagree. Pakistan is very supportive of the Taliban; in fact the latter is largely a creation of the former. But Russia profoundly dislikes the Taliban, which formed from the Islamic groups that defeated the USSR. Iran too dislikes the Taliban for both religious (Shia versus Sunni) and geopolitical reasons. Iran has traditionally had close relationships with the Shi'ite tribes in Afghanistan that the Taliban is presently crushing.

There is some diversity in the Gulf as well. Bahrain, for instance, is a Shiite state much closer to Iran than to Saudi Arabia or the Taliban. The Saudis are by far the most enthusiastic Gulf supporters of the Taliban. They and Pakistan are its chief supporters.


-------------
> . . . what this means is that pretty much all
> of the Afghani refugees that the United States
> gets will come strictly from the airlift and how
> long those planes continue to fly.

This is interesting. Yes, almost all of the refugees who come to the States will do that by air. But that will be a tiny part of the refugee phenomenon: hundreds of thousands, if not 1-2 million, refugees will leave Afghanistan and almost all of them will flee to neighboring countries. Given the state of the Iranian economy, the weakness of the former Soviet republics, and the vulnerability of Pakistan's Northwest Territories, the influx of so many Afghans will cause serious political and geopolitical problems.

Drudge has a photo of a C-17, flying high in the sky, with two tiny, tiny dots circled in red near the plane, with the headline that each dot is either a very optimistic or very pessimistic Afghan individual who tried to hitch a ride, hanging onto the outside of the plane.

I wonder if they knew each other?


... Very tough for the majority of Americans to wrap their minds around ...

This is difficult. DW has been crying since yesterday. Our son is 80% disabled as a result of combat in Afghanistan. He was one of the first 200 to enter the country with special forces. He bought a house last year and I spent several weeks getting it in shape for him as bending over and other physical activities are difficult for him. He struggles with nightmares at times. Ten years ago I flew down to help him with yet another surgery. I was in the waiting room in the hospital when a nurse came running in asking if I was the father. We both ran down the hall to the recovery room where he was coming out of anesthesia thinking he was back in combat and very agitated. As soon as he heard my voice he calmed down. I hope this was not all for nothing. He texted me a few minutes ago and said he lost friends and others will never be the same. He summarized that the war was hubris over intelligence.

and please tell him that it's not his fault.

I don't know if that's any consolation to him, to you, or your family, but I, as an ordinary citizen from a military family, hopes so.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2021 02:06PM by anybody.

That is sad, Eric K.
Now is the time to reassure and support our service members who served there any way we can. They did their jobs honorably. I can't imagine how upsetting this whole situation is for them.

+1.0 x 10^9

I am so sorry, Eric.

I am sorry for your son, and I am sorry for you and your wife.

I wish there was something we could do to help.

I am so sorry to hear that, Eric. What a tragedy, or series of tragedies, for your family.

Yes, Eric, what dagny and Lot's Wife said.

Today I heard (hearsay) that people were running and trying to grab onto wings of airplanes that were leaving Afghanistan.

Those poor people! How horribly, horribly sad.

I just saw video of people falling from planes that had managed to get airborne. They will obviously not survive the fall.

A Taliban leader told US reporter Clarissa Ward to move to the side of the road because she is female. She did so but continued reporting. Guts she's got.

And yes, the runways are clogged with masses of people attempting to flee. Beyond tragic.

Two men reportedly fired on US personnel. They won't be doing that again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2021 04:11PM by Nightingale.

Apparently it's not confirmed that it was humans falling from the plane so we should wait to get the final word. It was reported this afternoon as people, not hard to imagine as the steps leading to the planes were mobbed and people were definitely hanging off those. Very dangerous that so many were able to swarm onto the runways. Understandable that they would panic and try to get out though.

Wait a week until all the US types who want to leave are out then go in at night with stealth bombers, drones and such and flatten EVERY facility built with US Dollars.

Don't let the gomers profit from our work.

Yeah, that would repair the US reputation around the world. Allies in South Korea, Taiwan, the Ukraine, and all over the world would cheer the American determination to bomb places after betraying them.

Apologies for the sarcasm, but this is an important point. It's not about vengeance: it's about credibility.

From the BBC, July 5:

"Under a deal with the militant group, the US and its Nato allies agreed to withdraw all troops in return for a commitment by the Taliban not to allow al-Qaeda or any other extremist group to operate in the areas they control.

"President Joe Biden set a deadline of 11 September - the 20-year anniversary of the 9/11 attacks on the US - for American troops to fully withdraw, but reports suggest the pullout may be complete within days."



This is what I'm hearing today, that there was no choice, the US et al had to honour their agreement to leave. (Plus, they wanted to go, apparently).

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is what I'm hearing today, that there was no
> choice, the US et al had to honour their agreement
> to leave. (Plus, they wanted to go, apparently).

No, the United States was not bound by that agreement for the simple reason that the Taliban violated it from Day One. Biden bears responsibility.

Oh. I haven't been following it closely. It sounded like an explanation but turns out to be an excuse, seems like.

The excerpt you provided did not say the US was obligated to fulfill its commitments, and even if it did, the date on the article is over five weeks ago. In the interim the Taliban violated its part of the deal by undertaking offensive operations against the US-supported regime in Kabul.

Bottom line: the Taliban feels no obligation to abide by its commitments. Everyone knows that, so the only way to enforce an agreement is with the threat, and the reality, of violence. As soon as the US started to withdraw, the Taliban moved. That anybody in the administration expected otherwise is shocking.

*Zap*



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2021 08:35PM by Lot's Wife.