Hello all

I am not sure where to post this. It didn't feel right posting it in the Exmormon Bios forum for reasons I hope will become clear. Sorry if I got it wrong.

I've been here for a little while but never had the courage to start a new thread. I have a phobia about hell fire and it got so bad I almost admitted myself into a mental hospital, not once but twice. I am still in therapy because of it and it has literally cost me thousands of pounds.

The only way I could see out of this nightmare, was to destroy my faith to the point that I no longer believed. As a result, I am no longer a Christian either. I didn't want to do this. There was a time I was happy being a Latter Day Saint, and happy being a Christian. One of my closest friends is still in the LDS church.

When falling asleep and on waking up, I used to see in my mind's eye, images of me burning in hell and falling into fire. I also worried because I thought Heaven was communicating with me, sending me signs. I would have thoughts of words that would just pop into my head - seemingly from nowhere - and then I would see something in real life connected to that thought/word, and worry it was a sign from Heaven telling me I was going to hell. Things go so bad. At times it was truly horrendous, unbearable, to the point I was desperate for it to stop.

I have been diagnosed with General Anxiety Disorder, ADHD, just missed out on a diagnosis for OCD (though I have an obsessive personality), and I am being referred for a High Functioning Autism test. It's been very tough going on times but eventually, I admitted to myself that I no longer believed in the LDS Church or Christianity.

I have researchd the LDS church, quite extensively, but even so my anxiety has spiked again; what if I am wrong? The odd thing, is that I am not that worried by Christianity, but the LDS church scares me. I'm not sure why.

Anyway, I hope to find a few friends and hopefully some support.

Thank you all for reading.

EDIT: I should have added, that I haven't been an LDS member for about 20 years. Still, it has that grip on me. Not always, but when it does come along, it's tough.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2021 08:46AM by seajay.

I know you've been posting for a few months now, but please accept a hearty Welcome! from this British nevermo based in France. It sounds like the mormons really did a number on you :-/

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know you've been posting for a few months now,
> but please accept a hearty Welcome! from this
> British nevermo based in France. It sounds like
> the mormons really did a number on you :-/

Thank you for the welcome, I appreciate it. To be fair, everyone was kind and thoughtful to me, very much so. It's just my anxieties get out of hand now and then and I worry about certain teachings.

For me, the first few months out of Mormonism it consumed my thoughts all the time. We are all different yet you should be free of all encompassing thinking on Mormonism and Christianity after a period of time. It will haunt you less and less each day. Relax. Many of us have been through this. Find some pleasurable things to do. I took up flyfishing and coached soccer. Those activities took up some of my newly found free time. Later I returned to music playing sax and clarinet in various jazz and classical groups. Mormonism never crosses my thoughts at all now except here and occasionally with friends and wife. You will be fine. The transition to a more normal life after being in a cult is tough. Be good to yourself.

Eric K Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For me, the first few months out of Mormonism it
> consumed my thoughts all the time. We are all
> different yet you should be free of all
> encompassing thinking on Mormonism and
> Christianity after a period of time. It will
> haunt you less and less each day. Relax. Many
> of us have been through this. Find some
> pleasurable things to do. I took up flyfishing
> and coached soccer. Those activities took up some
> of my newly found free time. Later I returned to
> music playing sax and clarinet in various jazz and
> classical groups. Mormonism never crosses my
> thoughts at all now except here and occasionally
> with friends and wife. You will be fine. The
> transition to a more normal life after being in a
> cult is tough. Be good to yourself.

Thank you for replying Eric. Yes, I agree, when my mind is active (I've resorted to playing losts of pc games and I also do a lot of roleplaying), I am at my best. It's when I have time to think I can get anxious.

I very much agree with Eric K. And, given what you have said about yourself, I think the best advice for you would be to live one day at a time. Don't worry about what Mormons may think about you. Just concentrate on trying to heal yourself. If you need counselling, seek it from a non-Mormon professional. Know, however, that you will ultimately get through this--it will just take some time.

Hi there :)

Lots of good people and good advice to be found here. Lots of different backgrounds and ways we dealt with mormonism. One thing that struck me, you worry about some of the teachings. The thing is, the teachings have changed SO MUCH it hardly resembles the church I was raised in. Even in the last 15 years the changes have been tremendous and there seem to be more than ever. I am really in shock at the changes they are making to the SLC temple for instance. And "good mormons" being married multiple times and no one seems to bat an eye! If there are specific things that bother you or you just want to know more about ask away. Someone around here always knows lol. That is why you did post in the correct spot, people can't reply on the Bio board.

As to your anxiety, I have a rather odd suggestion. Have you ever tried time management games? At least for me they make me think so fast I CAN'T think about anything else and that is a welcome break. There are several different kinds, GameHouse is a great resource because you can buy a month and that gets you full access to a lot of different games. I like hidden object too. I love RPGs but I can't play until I get my good computer fixed :(

Again, welcome!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2021 10:49PM by Susan I/S.

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi there :)
>
> Lots of good people and good advice to be found
> here. Lots of different backgrounds and ways we
> dealt with mormonism. One thing that struck me,
> you worry about some of the teachings. The thing
> is, the teachings have changed SO MUCH it hardly
> resembles the church I was raised in. Even in the
> last 15 years the changes have been tremendous and
> there seem to be more than ever. I am really in
> shock at the changes they are making to the SLC
> temple for instance. And "good mormons" being
> married multiple times and no one seems to bat an
> eye! If there are specific things that bother you
> or you just want to know more about ask away.
> Someone around here always knows lol. That is why
> you did post in the correct spot, people can't
> reply on the Bio board.
>
> As to your anxiety, I have a rather odd
> suggestion. Have you ever tried time management
> games? At least for me they make me think so fast
> I CAN'T think about anything else and that is a
> welcome break. There are several different kinds,
> GameHouse is a great resource because you can buy
> a month and that gets you full access to a lot of
> different games. I like hidden object too. I
> love RPGs but I can't play until I get my good
> computer fixed :(
>
> Again, welcome!

Hi Susan - thanks for the reply. No I've not heard of time management games. I have realised though, that my laptop and computer games are what really help me. When I'm lost in a pc rpg I feel normal. Don't know what I would do without it to be honest. Probably just sit there stewing in my anxiety.

Give the time management games a try. For pure brain drain Burger Shop and Burger Shop2 are great. They start out easy and teach you how to build up to higher levels. The Game House original series are good too :)

I really must get my good computer vid card fixed so I can get back to my Diablo and Elder Scrolls.

Did you know the church will reimburse your therapy costs?


Okay, not really. I made that up. They don't do all kinds of things they should do. Mormonism inside your brain is like rats in a data center. They chew on the wiring and leave droppings.

So much for building your house upon a rock. It's more like a swamp, like the scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Try to get competent guards.

Good luck in your recovery.

" what if I am wrong? "

Understandable question. It just has a huge flaw and one that Mormonism addresses. Joe said his Telestial Kingdom would be so great people who commit suicide to get there.

In Mormonism it is far better to be wrong than right. Why? Because unless you get second anointed (ultimate anxiety remover for this question) you will always be pushing a Celestial load up Zion's mountain tops with everyone having a varying degree of success. The only true damnation in Mormonism is if you are not only second anointed but you've had some sort of spiritual confirmation (example First Vision) that God exists and then you deny God (the whole head) in denying the Holy Ghost.

So why worry? You aren't getting this spiritual confirmation and if you did Mormonism would think you were crazy though their founder made the same claim.

And if you try to do what is right you will just cause yourself anxiety that you don't want and for what The Terrestrial Kingdom?

Post deleted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2021 08:47AM by seajay.

Thank you all very much for your replies.

Elder Berry Wrote:

"The only true damnation in Mormonism is if you are not only second anointed but you've had some sort of spiritual confirmation (example First Vision) that God exists and then you deny God (the whole head) in denying the Holy Ghost. So why worry? You aren't getting this spiritual confirmation and if you did Mormonism would think you were crazy though their founder made the same claim."

-----------------------------------------------

I have two main issues, and your post, Elder Berry, addresses the first, which is to do with my baptism. I'll try to explain what happened.

-----------------------------------------------

1st Issue

About a week or two before my baptism, a friend of mine (who was Bishop at the time), said something like "Some Elders say, ""Receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost"", but then they do not wait for the Holy Ghost to enter. They just carry on talking."

A couple of weeks later I was baptised. I came out of the font and dried off, dressed, and we had Sacrament. I remember I felt relaxed the whole time, like you do when you've just come out of the bath or shower, dried off and are feeling, all fuzzy. My point is I felt relaxed and calm, not excited and full of emotions.

Anyway, my friend (the Bishop at the time) placed his hands on my head and said "Receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost", and then my friend paused for about 5 seconds and then I experienced a a sudden intake of breath and my chest felt like a light bulb had been turned on inside.

I am not 100% sure what I felt was the Holy Ghost, but the timing was perfect. At the time I thought it was the Holy Ghost, but later I started questioning it. I have often heard the feelings of the Holy Spirit described as a warm feeling, a feeling of peace, comfort, joy, something that might bring tears to the eyes. I felt in the past and felt it when I dried off (but I have had the feeling almost every single time I've dried off after bathing/showering). The feeling in my chest wasn't like that though. There was zero emotion and it felt like a purely reflexive action by my lungs (i.e. taking a big breath) albeit involuntary.

So I am worried that I have had confirmation and therefore I am a Son of Perdition going to Outer Darkness, which is either like hell and hellfire or something just as bad.

-----------------------------------------------

2nd Issue

Also, about repentance, I was taught in the LDS that in order to be forgiven, I have to ask God for forgiveness, >and< I also have to apologise to people I have wronged in the past.

Christianity says you have to feel remorse and ask God for forgiveness, but the LDS added that I also had to apologise to the person(s) offended and try to put right what I made wrong.

I’ve been thinking back to all the things I’ve said and/or done wrong to people, and this has proven extremely anxiety provoking because I've been going up to people, or I've been sending emails to people, asking them for things I did or said to them in the past. Of course, they say there's nothing to forgive, but I feel I have to ask them or I'm in real trouble.

As if that wasn't hard enough, there are certain things I am too scared to mention to people. I’ve not done anything that terrible, just things I am ashamed of – and if I do not apologise to them, I am not forgiven and will therefore become s Son of Perdition.

Honestly, it’s truly horrendous. :/



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2021 08:53AM by seajay.

#1.. that “warm feeling inside” is felt the world over by not just religious people concerning their religious beliefs but also by people making personal and financial decisions. Getting people to feel that way about something is the main tactic of all manipulators. Preachers, sales pitches, politicians,and con artists of all stripes are extremely adept at this tactic and your Bishop did it perfectly. How? ….well, he set you up beforehand by his explanation that others do it wrong and that there must be a pause to allow HG to enter. And then he performed it well, allowing your subconscious to finish the scenario. You were even coached as to what to expect.It’s an old sales tactic. As I said, this expectation/confirmation scenario is used and performed the world over every minute of the day. Get on Google and start reading about manipulation techniques. There are hundreds of books and thousands of articles written on these subjects.
#2…forgiveness…yes, guilt can be debilitating, and should and can be dealt with. But if you’re dealing with your guilt because you are afraid of what repercussions will come to you(Perdition…whatever that is)…. your concerns are misplaced…some might even say selfish. Do what you can to alleviate the harm you have caused to others for their sake…….and once you’ve done what you can to compensate them…then forgive yourself. Maybe a little guilt counseling would help.

Keep coming here, it will take time but this group will help you.

bobofitz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> #1.. that “warm feeling inside” is felt the
> world over by not just religious people concerning
> their religious beliefs but also by people making
> personal and financial decisions. Getting people
> to feel that way about something is the main
> tactic of all manipulators. Preachers, sales
> pitches, politicians,and con artists of all
> stripes are extremely adept at this tactic and
> your Bishop did it perfectly. How? ….well, he
> set you up beforehand by his explanation that
> others do it wrong and that there must be a pause
> to allow HG to enter. And then he performed it
> well, allowing your subconscious to finish the
> scenario. You were even coached as to what to
> expect.It’s an old sales tactic. As I said,
> this expectation/confirmation scenario is used and
> performed the world over every minute of the day.
> Get on Google and start reading about manipulation
> techniques. There are hundreds of books and
> thousands of articles written on these subjects.

Thank you for the reply bobofitz. I am sure my friend wasn't deliberately trying to manipulate me. But even so, I think you are correct about me being 'prepared' before hand. It was probably done unwittingly, but it was still done.

bobofitz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> #2…forgiveness…yes, guilt can be debilitating,
> and should and can be dealt with. But if you’re
> dealing with your guilt because you are afraid of
> what repercussions will come to
> you(Perdition…whatever that is)…. your
> concerns are misplaced…some might even say
> selfish.

Sorry, just to clarify, you are saying, I should apologise because it is the right thing to do (from a purely humanitarian secular point of view) and not because I will be a Son of Perdition if I don't?

On a related topic, do you know if the LDS teach if you don't apologise to the person and try to right your wrong - you are a Son of Perdition? I'm sure that is what it says and that is what is causing me so much anxiety.

Do what you can to alleviate the harm you
> have caused to others for their sake…….and
> once you’ve done what you can to compensate
> them…then forgive yourself. Maybe a little guilt
> counseling would help.

I agree this is the right thing to do. But I am just too afraid. I know that is weak and cowardly but it is also more complicated than that. If circumstances change I will apologise.

But again, to clarify, you are saying to say sorry and right the wrong (if I can), not because I'll become a Son of Perdition but because it is the right thing to do (regardless of any religion)?

The problem isn't that I've done so terrible that I need to go to jail or anything like that. The problem is that I keep remembering misdemeanours and feel I have to apologise for them all, or I become a Son of Perdition.

Not only that, but the way my brain is wired, I can tell you what will happen if I did apologise - I would soon remember something else and feel the need to apologise for that. This would carry on indefinitely. Knowing that will happen, I knew I just had to destroy my faith and stop everythig right here right now, or it would get very much out of hand. But of course, in stopping it right here and right now - I then start worrying about repercussions in the afterlife. It's complicated.

> Keep coming here, it will take time but this group
> will help you.

I will. Thank you bobofitz for the encouragement. I do appreciate it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 05:24AM by seajay.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The only true damnation in
> Mormonism is if you are not only second anointed
> but you've had some sort of spiritual confirmation
> (example First Vision) that God exists and then
> you deny God (the whole head) in denying the Holy
> Ghost.

So, even if I [had] received undeniable proof, I still wouldn't be a Son of Perdition - unless I had [also] received the Second Anointing? Which I haven't. I have never even been anywhere near a Temple, let alone go inside one.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 07:02AM by seajay.

Deejay….I think this is as accurate of an explanation of Mormonism’s doctrine on the “Sons of Perdition “ as can be explained. According to what I remember, it is a special punishment for those who deny the Holy Ghost( another way of saying to deny God). This after having a perfect knowledge. I don’t believe it is a punishment for common misdeeds. Maybe some of the doctrinal experts can elaborate. Doctrine in Mormonism is very fluid sometimes….. some compare it to “nailing jello to the wall”. However, I do think Elder Berry has captured the doctrine well in his post.

bobofitz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Deejay….I think this is as accurate of an
> explanation of Mormonism’s doctrine on the
> “Sons of Perdition “ as can be explained.
> According to what I remember, it is a special
> punishment for those who deny the Holy Ghost(
> another way of saying to deny God). This after
> having a perfect knowledge. I don’t believe it
> is a punishment for common misdeeds. Maybe some of
> the doctrinal experts can elaborate. Doctrine in
> Mormonism is very fluid sometimes….. some
> compare it to “nailing jello to the wall”.
> However, I do think Elder Berry has captured the
> doctrine well in his post.

On one hand, I think that if I did have a perfect knowledge, I would never have left. On the other hand, I worry and ask myself, "What constitutes a perfect knowledge - how do I know I did not have a perfect knowledge at my baptism?" A rhetorical question but one that plays on my mind.

seajay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the other
> hand, I worry and ask myself, "What constitutes a
> perfect knowledge - how do I know I did not have a
> perfect knowledge at my baptism?" A rhetorical
> question but one that plays on my mind.

I'll let Alma answer.

34 And now, behold, is your aknowledge bperfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your cfaith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your dmind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is alight; and whatsoever is light, is bgood, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?

36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/alma/32?lang=eng&id=34#p34

You need a lot more faith and a "surety in Christ." You have to know you are saved, glory-bound, whatever calling and election made sure is. I don't think baptism is that.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> seajay Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > On the other
> > hand, I worry and ask myself, "What constitutes
> a
> > perfect knowledge - how do I know I did not have
> a
> > perfect knowledge at my baptism?" A rhetorical
> > question but one that plays on my mind.
>
> I'll let Alma answer.
>
> 34 And now, behold, is your aknowledge bperfect?
> Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and
> your cfaith is dormant; and this because you know,
> for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls,
> and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that
> your understanding doth begin to be enlightened,
> and your dmind doth begin to expand.
>
> 35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea,
> because it is alight; and whatsoever is light, is
> bgood, because it is discernible, therefore ye
> must know that it is good; and now behold, after
> ye have tasted this light is your knowledge
> perfect?
>
> 36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay
> aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your
> faith to plant the seed that ye might try the
> experiment to know if the seed was good.
>
> https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptur
> es/bofm/alma/32?lang=eng&id=34#p34
>
> You need a lot more faith and a "surety in
> Christ." You have to know you are saved,
> glory-bound, whatever calling and election made
> sure is. I don't think baptism is that.

Thank you for replying Elder Berry.

But don't we all believe we are saved after we have been baptised? Or are you speaking of another kind of knowing?

" what if I am wrong? "
I used to get this from by ex-TBM wife and relatives. But, what if your're right?

Exactly. What if *they* are wrong?

My advice is stay here and express yourself a lot and this is why:

The Mormons got into your psyche much deeper than you could know. The times you are experiencing the extreme anxiety is telling. I left the church in 1973 realizing it was a lie. I knew it deep in my gut though at that time there was no google and I knew none of the facts we know now. I was thrilled to find it all a lie and get on with my life.

As kid we were taught that the devil could attack you and if he did you had to raise your arm to the square and command him to go away in the name of Jesus Christ. Doesn't work so well in a dream that has become sleep paralysis and you can't make your arm or your mouth work and the devil keeps coming. As a kid I had to keep the light on and watch the door as long as I could without falling asleep.

For the next three to four decades I was plagued with nightmares of Satan attacking me. would wake up in a sweat. Later in life with my other half hitting me to get me out of it. The insidious brainwashing was still there deep down and nothing to do with anything factual or intellectual.

I haven't had the dreams for about nine or ten years now and I credit a few reasons. One was reading No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie. Finally had some facts. Another is RFM. I came here and excavated what I had buried from my Mormons past and examined it, gave it some sun light, and let it float away. I owned it and did not let it own me anymore.

You *can* talk something to death. In that vein, I wrote a novel on the subject. Oddly I typed madly for three months and when I was done I had exactly 666 pages. Too good that coincidence. I got it all out. That is about the time the nightmares finally stopped.

I don't know what your way out will be, seajay, to get to the bottom of it all and weed out those last seeds they planted in your head but I hope you find it. Got to get their tentacles off of your deepest parts, and you can. I hope RFM helps you as much as it helped me. Good luck.

Mormons don't teach a burning hell. In the atomically small chance you're/we're wrong about mormonism, we'll get something other than the celestial kingdom (depending on which flavor of mormon you talk to), but not hellfire in any event.

OTOH, if we're wrong about Islam, we and all other non-Muslims are going to burn like dry tinder forever, and the only satisfaction will be watching all the self-righteous smug bible humpers getting torched right next to us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahannam

I doubt that a single ex-mormon or fundie christian or ex-fundie or Jaydub etc. is all that concerned about going to Muslim hell. I haven't lost any sleep over it.

decultified Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormons don't teach a burning hell. In the
> atomically small chance you're/we're wrong about
> mormonism, we'll get something other than the
> celestial kingdom (depending on which flavor of
> mormon you talk to), but not hellfire in any
> event.

Is this correct? I mean, I have read a quote from Joseph Smith wherein he says something like (not word for word so ignore my quotes), "hell doesn't frighten me for that doesn't exist. But the emotional suffering can be exquisite."

So I think he is saying, 'hell doesn't exist, but trust me, with how bad emotional suffering can get, you won't need hell.'

But for some reason, I thought Sons of Perdition did go to hell. I'm sure it says there are three kingdoms and there is Outer Darkness where the devil and his angels go - along with Sons of Perdition. The Bible says the devil is in hell, so Outer Darkness must be hell. And if I don't apologise to everyone, then I am a Son of Perdition going to hell.

It's really messing me up to be honest.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 05:12AM by seajay.

seajay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> decultified Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Mormons don't teach a burning hell. In the
> > atomically small chance you're/we're wrong
> about
> > mormonism, we'll get something other than the
> > celestial kingdom (depending on which flavor of
> > mormon you talk to), but not hellfire in any
> > event.
>
> Is this correct? I mean, I have read a quote from
> Joseph Smith wherein he says something like (not
> word for word so ignore my quotes), "hell doesn't
> frighten me for that doesn't exist. But the
> emotional suffering can be exquisite."
>
> So I think he is saying, 'hell doesn't exist, but
> trust me, with how bad emotional suffering can
> get, you won't need hell.'
>
> But for some reason, I thought Sons of Perdition
> did go to hell. I'm sure it says there are three
> kingdoms and there is Outer Darkness where the
> devil and his angels go - along with Sons of
> Perdition. The Bible says the devil is in hell, so
> Outer Darkness must be hell. And if I don't
> apologise to everyone, then I am a Son of
> Perdition going to hell.
>
> It's really messing me up to be honest.

Mormon outer darkness only really got traction as a phrased slogan possibly because to try and live outside the physical land boundaries in the dry upper-midwest plains can be very difficult if not downright dangerous, on your own.

Today, this simply translates into job or office atmosphere conditions where a lot of Mormon employment may take place. Think ICE, NSA, Border Control, Homeland Security and places where LDS influence has been in place for years. There is a reason the rich Howard Hughes surrounded himself with Mel Stewart (Mormon) and many many saints to help in catering to his every need.

You're just coming away from OZ Dorothy, you'll be fine.

Fear Guilt & Shame (FGS) has no grip on us and if you have yet to embrace those words from the true Jesus or someone great who escaped the archaic cult of Islam like Ravi Zacharias (fantastic teacher on YouTube) just climb under that freedom umbrella like so very very many others. You could need an escape from religion for a long long time. You've been abused.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 05:44AM by Josephs Myth.

This is what Smith had to say about sons of perdition:

"What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it, he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy."

Have you had the heavens opened to you? Have you seen Jesus and/or god? No you have not. While Smith continues on to claim that "many" apostates fall into this category, he also says that these apostates hunt and try to kill him. So this part applied only while Smith was alive, when every mormon dingus was seeing visions and things.

Even Spencer Kimball in the rancid Miracle of Forgiveness wrote this:

"The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin." (p. 123)

You are NOT a son of perdition, even by orthodox mormon standards. The prophets have spoken, the thinking has been done.

P.S. The JS quote you remember is this: "The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone." From the same sermon as the initial quote, and not applicable to any of us.

decultified Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is what Smith had to say about sons of
> perdition:
>
> "What must a man do to commit the unpardonable
> sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the
> heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then
> sin against Him. After a man has sinned against
> the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him.
> He has got to say that the sun does not shine
> while he sees it, he has got to deny Jesus Christ
> when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to
> deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to
> the truth of it; and from that time he begins to
> be an enemy."
>
> Have you had the heavens opened to you? Have you
> seen Jesus and/or god? No you have not. While
> Smith continues on to claim that "many" apostates
> fall into this category, he also says that these
> apostates hunt and try to kill him. So this part
> applied only while Smith was alive, when every
> mormon dingus was seeing visions and things.

I don't really know what having the heavens opened means. If it is saying you have to have -literally seen with your own eyes- Jesus and/or God, then I haven't.

On the second part, if Joseph Smith did not clarify it was only those apostates that hunted him, it could mean all apostates. Because we have to read into the text that he meant only those apostates that hunted him.

decultified Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Even Spencer Kimball in the rancid Miracle of
> Forgiveness wrote this:
>
> "The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such
> knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the
> rank and file to commit such a sin." (p. 123)

This is a lot more clear. But I remember reading I was in trouble because I had the Aaronic Priesthood but still left the LDS church. So, it's sort of like, the rank and file mentioned above does not include those who had the Priesthood (i.e. they are still in trouble). I also remember being told that walking away after having the Priesthood does not make me a Son of Perdition. So I'm not sure. If it is relevant, I never had the Melchizidek Priesthood.

decultified Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You are NOT a son of perdition, even by orthodox
> mormon standards. The prophets have spoken, the
> thinking has been done.
>
> P.S. The JS quote you remember is this: "The
> torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as
> exquisite as a lake burning with fire and
> brimstone." From the same sermon as the initial
> quote, and not applicable to any of us.

In the quote I read from Joseph Smith he definitely mentioned not believing in hell (as in hell fire).

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to make sure I have the correct knowledge so I can finally move on in my life.

Thank you for posting decultified. I appreciate it.

"But I remember reading I was in trouble because I had the Aaronic Priesthood but still left the LDS church."

Let me guess. It was in something put out by the church. If you visited an insane asylum and some guy in a straight jacket told you that, it would have exactly the same credibility.

Joseph Smith was a womanizing charlatan who ultimately wanted to be King of the United States. Napoleon much? How can you trust a single word that guy says? And Brigham Young, even worse. He had 56 wives, count 'em, 56. He had a lot of people killed. You call that a man of God?

What if Kim Jong Un said you were in big trouble for not worshiping pictures of Kim Il Sung, the deity of North Korea. I suppose you would believe that too.

"Religious Leader" is an oxymoron. They don't live in your mind. They only live in your imagination. They are products of their own imagination, which is no more sane than yours. That they drank the Kool-aid is evidence they are less sane.

Now, about these dreams of Hell fire, dreams mean something. They seem to indicate to me that you have a higher calling. Fire is symbolic of living in the world of the five senses. That world is consumed upon death. I suggest that you take up meditation. Find spiritual practices that work for you. Mormonism is pernicious because it teaches clean living while taking your mind prisoner. The two shouldn't go together.

Superstitious Muslims have their own dangers to worry with..

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/pork-laced-bullets-designed-to-send-muslims-straight-to-hell/2013/06/21/aff2247a-daaa-11e2-b418-9dfa095e125d_story.html&ved=2ahUKEwjoneT85MLzAhUaTTABHa12A00QFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0swIsdHwSi0fyonO-AU07F

What they need to worry about is racist Idahoans. Good grief.

Hello, Seajay! We're glad to have you here.

It can take years, even decades to fully extricate yourself from religious programming. Consider Joseph Smith's character. Is this someone that you would trust with a beloved wife, daughter, sister, or friend? Of course not. So why should you trust his ideas about anything else? He was a con artist who was in the game for the money, the admiration of his followers, and the side benefits. There was nothing about him that was admirable or trustworthy.

There are many books that you could read (Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" is listed above, and there are many others,) the short topics on this site, and many other resources. People here can come up with other ideas if needed.

It took me many years to realize that I didn't need to be perfect -- I was good enough. I hope that in time you are able to come to a similar realization. You are good enough. You are more than good enough. You don't need the approval of some bogus religion that was founded by a con artist.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello, Seajay! We're glad to have you here.
>
> It can take years, even decades to fully extricate
> yourself from religious programming. Consider
> Joseph Smith's character. Is this someone that you
> would trust with a beloved wife, daughter, sister,
> or friend? Of course not. So why should you trust
> his ideas about anything else? He was a con artist
> who was in the game for the money, the admiration
> of his followers, and the side benefits. There was
> nothing about him that was admirable or
> trustworthy.
>
> There are many books that you could read (Fawn
> Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" is listed
> above, and there are many others,) the short
> topics on this site, and many other resources.
> People here can come up with other ideas if
> needed.
>
> It took me many years to realize that I didn't
> need to be perfect -- I was good enough. I hope
> that in time you are able to come to a similar
> realization. You are good enough. You are more
> than good enough. You don't need the approval of
> some bogus religion that was founded by a con
> artist.

Thank you Summer. Do we know how accurate Fawn Brodie's book is? I think it's been out for many a year so I was wondering if the information was still up to date.

EDIT: I was also thinking about getting 'Deconstructing Mormonism.' I think that is its correct title.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 08:34AM by seajay.

It's as accurate as the available sources allowed it to be. Some stuff has come to light or been clarified since, but nothing major. No Man Knows My History is a also a great read. She captures the early New England atmosphere really well and she writes very well too.

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's as accurate as the available sources allowed
> it to be. Some stuff has come to light or been
> clarified since, but nothing major. No Man Knows
> My History is a also a great read. She captures
> the early New England atmosphere really well and
> she writes very well too.

Thank you Soft Machine. I will see if I can track a copy down and give it a read through.

EDIT: Not so sure now. I've just scanned a few reviews of it on Amazon, and whilst the detractors are LDS members, what does seem to be a common theme is that Brodie's book is not well researched, and that she often puts forth her own thinking instead of going with the facts.

I know I shouldn't be surprised to read LDS defending Joseph Smith, but either she used facts or she used facts and her own thinking on events. If the former, that is great, but if it's the latter, how can I trust what is and isn't fact? Here are two examples:

------

"When doing my own research on her sources, I was overwhelmed with how many of them were not credible. This is an opinion piece wrapped up to look like a well researched historical text."

------

"This is a very readable book but unfortunately the author engages in a lot of speculation and mind-reading about her subject, Joseph Smith. It has the appearance of being an objective study a careful reading shows the author as has an agenda and uses unreliable methods.

For example, "[Joseph] dreamed of escape into an illustrious and affluent future. For Joseph was not meant to be a plodding farmer, tied to the earth by habit or by love for the recurrent miracle of harvest. He detested the plow as only a farmer's son can, and looked with despair on the fearful mortgage that clouded their future."

This is pure mind-reading. No sources are cited for these supposed insights into Smiths thoughts. Another example: "Joseph liked preaching because it gave him an audience, and this was as 'essential to Joseph as food.'" No source cited.

-------

"The author also gets important facts wrong. For example, the story of about court pronouncing Joseph "guilty" at a 1826 trial. This was a preliminary hearing, not a trial, and "guilty" was not even a possible verdict. The charges were dismissed. This legal proceeding was brought by relatives of Josiah Stowell, who didn't like that Josiah believed Smith's preaching. Smith was hauled into court many times by his enemies using false accusations."

-------

The reviewers do make a fair point.

Also, she did a similar work on Jefferson and critics (non-Mormon I assume) are saying it wasn't very professional.

I'm honestly not supporting either theory, I'm just trying to make sure I get the facts and not opinions. I don't want to read something that finally ends all this anxiety, only to find out what I read was poorly researched and not that reliable.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 11:58AM by seajay.

Well, LDS members would say that - but they're not known for their detailed knowledge of their history - only of the bits they like.

They like to remember the Haun's Mill Massacre (17 dead at the hands of an anti-mormon mob.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haun%27s_Mill_massacre

They don't like to remember the much more deadly Mountain Meadows Massacre, where Utah mormons war-painted to look like Native Americans (and perhaps a few Native Americans too) killed around 140 people crossing to California.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre

Most mormons don't know their history.

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, LDS members would say that - but they're not
> known for their detailed knowledge of their
> history - only of the bits they like.
>
> They like to remember the Haun's Mill Massacre (17
> dead at the hands of an anti-mormon mob.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haun%27s_Mill_massac
> re
>
> They don't like to remember the much more deadly
> Mountain Meadows Massacre, where Utah mormons
> war-painted to look like Native Americans (and
> perhaps a few Native Americans too) killed around
> 140 people crossing to California.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Mas
> sacre
>
> Most mormons don't know their history.

I think that is a true statement, but then again, what am I supposed to think when I read this about Fawn Brodie's book:

"The author also gets important facts wrong. For example, the story of about court pronouncing Joseph "guilty" at a 1826 trial. This was a preliminary hearing, not a trial, and "guilty" was not even a possible verdict. The charges were dismissed. This legal proceeding was brought by relatives of Josiah Stowell, who didn't like that Josiah believed Smith's preaching. Smith was hauled into court many times by his enemies using false accusations."

This is a problem because if her facts are wrong here, how can I rely on anything else in the book? That's the issue I have.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 12:01PM by seajay.

It seems to me that the 1826 trial story is a very minor fact. The MAJOR fact is that Joseph Smith was involved in occult practices such as divining through "seer stones" to seek buried treasure (a fact they have tried to cover up throughout their history). On that aspect, I would recommend another book "Mormonism and the Magic Worldview" by D. Michael Quinn (a faithful mormon at the time) which details all the many parts of mormonosm pointing to practice of the occult by the Smith family, practices which later became incorporated into mormonism or mormon folk lore.

Mormon apologists (like other apologists) always try to get you to look at the trees rather than the forest. As if a minor quibble actually changed anything. If you read Fawn Brodie's book, you'll see that the number of validated facts demonstrating that the story of mormonism is not the one told by LDS is so overwhelming that the occasional mistake or inaccuracy does not in any way disprove her basic telling of events. The parts about Smith's "polygamy" are particularly revealing (and, for amusing historical reasons, backed by affidavits by several of JS's "wives")...

All the best to you.

Tom (in Paris), also known as Soft Machine ;-)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2021 12:32PM by Soft Machine.

They are just repeating the party line. The issue is not as clearcut as the apologists want you to believe.

Try these sources as well

https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court1826.htm

https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon430.htm

http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/js1826.htm

https://www.lightplanet.com/response/1826Trial/1826Trial_Hill.html

https://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1877Purp.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20110609204410/http://mormonscripturestudies.com/ch/dv/1826.asp

Even this one from the church

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/introduction-to-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They are just repeating the party line. The issue
> is not as clearcut as the apologists want you to
> believe.
>
> Try these sources as well
>
> https://user.xmission.com/~research/early/court182
> 6.htm
>
> https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon430.htm
>
> http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/js1826.htm
>
> https://www.lightplanet.com/response/1826Trial/182
> 6Trial_Hill.html
>
> https://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1877Purp.h
> tm
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20110609204410/http://
> mormonscripturestudies.com/ch/dv/1826.asp
>
> Even this one from the church
>
> https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/in
> troduction-to-state-of-new-york-v-js-a/1

Thank you for the links [|] (that's the most unique username I have ever seen :) )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2021 03:29AM by seajay.

I would like to ask a question about something that plays on my mind. I've heard told that nobody actually saw the golden plates, but didn't Emma (is that the name of Joseph Smith's wife? it's been a while) say she saw something under a cloth and touched the cloth and felt something like thin metal sheets?

I know she didn't actually see them with her own eyes, but I got the impression she did not see eye-to-eye with her husband over a lot of things. But here she admits she touched something that might have been plates. I also know anyone could throw a cloth over something, tell them not to look and claim they were plate (but isn't that risky? what if Emma pulled the cloth away?).

Also, this wasn't official LDS history, it was written by someone who left the church.

And your question is??

bobofitz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And your question is??

That she wouldn't have said she touched something unless there was something there to touch, and if there was something there to touch, it could have been the plates.

I think I'm coming from the position that she was not seeing eye-to-eye with her husband so she had no reason to side with her husband, so she must have touched something.

I realise I'm stretching here but it is something that plays on my mind. What did she touch?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2021 03:16AM by seajay.

I think this got lost in the above posts so I have added it here because I am hoping someone might be able to help me out with it.

I was taught in the LDS that in order to be forgiven, I had to ask God for forgiveness, >and< I also had to apologise to the person I had wronged in the past >and< put right what I did wrong (if possible).

Christianity says you have to feel remorse and ask God for forgiveness, but the LDS seemed to add other requirements.

I’ve been thinking back to all the things I’ve said and/or done wherein I have wronged people, and this has proven extremely anxiety provoking because I've been going up to people, or I've been sending emails to people, asking them for things I did or said to them in the past. They say there's nothing to forgive, and that I'm just worrying over nothing, and in a way I know what they are saying because none of it seems that bad, but I still feel I have to ask them or I'm in real trouble.

The troubles is that there are certain things I am too scared to mention to people. I’ve not done anything terrible, just things I am not proud of – and if I do not apologise to them, I am not forgiven and if I am not forgiven I will become a Son of Perdition.

In one case, I am worried what my friend will do because he has anxiety and in another case, I'm not even 100% sure I did what I think I did (it was a long time ago). The thing is, even if I did apologise, it wouldn't end, because I know I'd start trying to remember other misdemeanours and feel I have to apologise for them. It seems like it would never end.

Hi Seajay. It seems to me that you have a need to beat yourself up for something. At present you are obsessing on possible wrongs you committed toward others in your past. Some of these misdeeds are not even memorable to you or to the perceived victim.

A few days ago I made reference to the possibility of therapy. I think this may help you to find what you are looking to be forgiven for.

Please keep in touch with the people here. They can help you to further understand some of the historical doctrines of the Mormon Church. The clarification of what it takes to become a “ Son of Perdition “ is a good example. I think it’s clear from comparing what you’ve told us about your past misdeeds with what the Mormons consider grounds for banishment to “Outer Darkness”… that you haven’t come close to qualifying. Rest easy on that.

Again, I don’t think think your misdeeds toward your friends and past acquaintances is the cause of your anxieties. I’d recommend finding out what it is so that it can end.

bobofitz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Seajay. It seems to me that you have a need to
> beat yourself up for something. At present you are
> obsessing on possible wrongs you committed toward
> others in your past. Some of these misdeeds are
> not even memorable to you or to the perceived
> victim.
>
> A few days ago I made reference to the possibility
> of therapy. I think this may help you to find what
> you are looking to be forgiven for.
>
> Please keep in touch with the people here. They
> can help you to further understand some of the
> historical doctrines of the Mormon Church. The
> clarification of what it takes to become a “ Son
> of Perdition “ is a good example. I think it’s
> clear from comparing what you’ve told us about
> your past misdeeds with what the Mormons consider
> grounds for banishment to “Outer Darkness”…
> that you haven’t come close to qualifying. Rest
> easy on that.
>
> Again, I don’t think think your misdeeds toward
> your friends and past acquaintances is the cause
> of your anxieties. I’d recommend finding out
> what it is so that it can end.

I am currently in therapy and have been on and off for about 30 years. One thing that keeps coming up is my childhood. It was one of insecurity due to a parent with a mental health condition. Although I don't know for sure I'd have to say it was something along the lines of bipolar.

It doesn't matter though, because most of the time you never knew how they were going to act from one moment to the next. Lots of screaming, verbal aggression, breaking things, interspersed with moments of calm, before it started up again. It didn't help that my parents divorced when I was very young and my parent had a few partners. My sister once told me that when they were together, I would be sent to go live with my other parent, and when they broke up, I was brought back home. So going back and forth between two schools didn't help.

So basically, it was an unstable childhood (and at a time you really need stability) and I think it has caused me to be a very insecure person who has to look for reassurances. This is why I ask if I will go to outer darkness for not apologising to others and putting wrongs to right. One thing I cannot tolerate is uncertainty, which ties in to me needing to know things.

I don't say the above for sympathy but so people understand why I ask these questions.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2021 03:28AM by seajay.

Dear Seajay, I think many of us here, exmo or otherwise, can identify with this, to varying degrees. I agree that childhood is a period which needs stability and that its absence marks people for life.

I fully understand why you ask these questions - and I hope we'll be able to calm some of your fears and doubts.

Best wishes to you

Tom

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Seajay, I think many of us here, exmo or
> otherwise, can identify with this, to varying
> degrees. I agree that childhood is a period which
> needs stability and that its absence marks people
> for life.
>
> I fully understand why you ask these questions -
> and I hope we'll be able to calm some of your
> fears and doubts.
>
> Best wishes to you
>
> Tom

Thank you Soft Machine, I do appreciate that.

It seems to me that Mormonism has seriously abused your mind. They taught you that you are the problem. No. They are the problem. It's not you, it's them. It was them all along.

You were always good enough.

Suppose there were actual Golden Plates. Why would they be engraven with a story that is physically impossible? That doesn't in any way match what we know about pre-Columbian America but instead is a snapshot of 19th century restorationist theory?

And notice that the church doesn't have theories. It has doctrine that is simply not questioned. The leaders speak for God, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Don't you find that a wee bit suspicious?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2021 06:50AM by bradley.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It seems to me that Mormonism has seriously abused
> your mind. They taught you that you are the
> problem. No. They are the problem. It's not you,
> it's them. It was them all along.
>
> You were always good enough.

Thank you Bradley. I've been told twice now that I have been abused. I hadn't really thought of it that way, and it is difficult to do so when I see all the LDS members, basically trying to be good people. I think in general, people are good at heart.

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Suppose there were actual Golden Plates. Why would
> they be engraven with a story that is physically
> impossible? That doesn't in any way match what we
> know about pre-Columbian America but instead is a
> snapshot of 19th century restorationist theory?

Yes, I've done a little research into this and tend to agree. My problem is the inability to accept uncertainty. I have to know something 100%, but life is not like that. I know I have to accept uncertainty and get on with my life but it's very tough going on times.

Thank you for your post Bradley.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2021 06:14AM by seajay.

I'm kind of OCD myself. I had to be certain too. Look up Mormonthink and see the impossibilities of the BoM.

This reminds me of an argument I had with my friend in my 20s. I saw a postcard with a photo of a jackalope. My friend asked how it could get down its hole with those horns. That convinced me that jackalopes were not real. They were physically impossible.

At one point, I had doubts about mathematics. That maybe my wrong answers meant that math could be kind of hokey. Nope, it was me. Your computer or phone performs trillions of math operations every second. The result of every one of those operations is correct every time for years, barring the occasional cosmic particle.

You can prove to yourself that the BoM is 100% impossible. I get where you're at right now. It's called going down the rabbit hole. I remember wanting the church to be true so badly. I felt my identity slipping away. Everything I "knew" was a lie. I don't make up my mind, I continually circle back. Every time it's the same. There's no going back to the way things were. You are living your own Truman Show.

seajay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello all
>
>
> ... I have a phobia about hell fire...

HELL FIRE is to keep people in line.
You don't like lines do you?

Christianity - and mormonism - wants you to be afraid in this life, to be worried, to be insecure with your own decisions, so you will depend on it (because it depend$ on you). People prop up the 'church', not the other way around.

> I am still in therapy because of it and it has literally cost me thousands of pounds. >

I assume you're English, otherwise it might not be so healthy (that's a lot of weight, or money).

> The only way I could see out of this nightmare, was to destroy my faith to the point that I no longer believed. >

Don't worry, you didn't destroy it. They did. It is designed that way. But it's better you destroy it or it will destroy you.

> When falling asleep and on waking up, I used to
see in my mind's eye, images of me burning in hell and falling into fire. I also worried because I thought Heaven was communicating with me, sending me signs. I would have thoughts of words that would just pop into my head - seemingly from nowhere - and then I would see something in real life connected to that thought/word, and worry it was a sign from MORMONISM that I was going to hell.

Our minds are amazing things, especially when opened. They can do many things. Inspire us, scare us, motivate us, hinder us, etc. Keep searching for possibilities, answers, insights, wisdom, etc. and always remain open to possibilities (and beautiful, loving, accepting people everywhere).

> I have researchd the LDS church, quite extensively, but even so my anxiety has spiked again; what if I am wrong? >

You CAN'T be wrong. The Mormon hurch wants to take your life - ALL of your life (money, time, talents, thoughts, goals, free-agency, choices, etc...), promising you'll get it back [after you die!]. Research you! You'll ALWAYS be true. Right?

> I am not that worried by Christianity, but the LDS church scares me. I'm not sure why. >

Because It Is Not A "Church", but an institution bent on convincing others (you) that it is your heavenly FATher, your savior, your only chance/ hope to make it through this life in one piece. That if you don't follow it you'll be DAMNED!

Don't believe it. That is manipulation. Coercion. Brainwashing. Gaslighting. Misleading...

The Mormon 'Church' be damned!
This is YOUR life-

> Anyway, I hope to find a few friends and hopefully some support. >

You've come to the proper place
This Is The Place and the face :)

~ufotofu~ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> seajay Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Hello all
> >
> >
> > ... I have a phobia about hell fire...
>
> HELL FIRE is to keep people in line.
> You don't like lines do you?
>
> Christianity - and mormonism - wants you to be
> afraid in this life, to be worried, to be insecure
> with your own decisions, so you will depend on it
> (because it depend$ on you). People prop up the
> 'church', not the other way around.
>
> > I am still in therapy because of it and it has
> literally cost me thousands of pounds. >
>
> I assume you're English, otherwise it might not be
> so healthy (that's a lot of weight, or money).
>
> > The only way I could see out of this nightmare,
> was to destroy my faith to the point that I no
> longer believed. >
>
> Don't worry, you didn't destroy it. They did. It
> is designed that way. But it's better you destroy
> it or it will destroy you.
>
> > When falling asleep and on waking up, I used to
> see in my mind's eye, images of me burning in hell
> and falling into fire. I also worried because I
> thought Heaven was communicating with me, sending
> me signs. I would have thoughts of words that
> would just pop into my head - seemingly from
> nowhere - and then I would see something in real
> life connected to that thought/word, and worry it
> was a sign from MORMONISM that I was going to
> hell.
>
> Our minds are amazing things, especially when
> opened. They can do many things. Inspire us, scare
> us, motivate us, hinder us, etc. Keep searching
> for possibilities, answers, insights, wisdom, etc.
> and always remain open to possibilities (and
> beautiful, loving, accepting people everywhere).
>
> > I have researchd the LDS church, quite
> extensively, but even so my anxiety has spiked
> again; what if I am wrong? >
>
> You CAN'T be wrong. The Mormon hurch wants to
> take your life - ALL of your life (money, time,
> talents, thoughts, goals, free-agency, choices,
> etc...), promising you'll get it back . Research
> you! You'll ALWAYS be true. Right?
>
> > I am not that worried by Christianity, but the
> LDS church scares me. I'm not sure why. >
>
> Because It Is Not A "Church", but an institution
> bent on convincing others (you) that it is your
> heavenly FATher, your savior, your only chance/
> hope to make it through this life in one piece.
> That if you don't follow it you'll be DAMNED!
>
> Don't believe it. That is manipulation. Coercion.
> Brainwashing. Gaslighting. Misleading...
>
> The Mormon 'Church' be damned!
> This is YOUR life-
>
> > Anyway, I hope to find a few friends and
> hopefully some support. >
>
> You've come to the proper place
> This Is The Place and the face :)

Hi ufotofu

Thank you for that reply, it both comforted me and made me smile :)

I was taught there are three kingdoms of glory and there is outer darkness. I read somewhere that if I don't apologise and put right the wrong I did to a person or a thing, >then I won't be forgiven<.

That last part is important. For some reason I see "> I won't be forgiven<" to mean I go to outer darkness.'

Granted if I denied the Holy Spirit after having undeniable confirmation, that would be my ultimate destination - but I never did that.

Let me ask a question that might clear this bit up.

If I wrong someone and I do not apologise to them or put right the wrong (setting aside for the moment that it 'is' the right thing to do), and let's say I have reasons for not doing so - am I correct in thinking:

a) I won't be forgiven
a) I will go to the telestial kingdom
c) I won't go to outer darkness

Is that correct?

In Mormonism, in that case you would not go to outer darkness. Depending on what the offense was, it might not even send you to the telestial kingdom. For example, if you insulted someone, but didn't apologize, that would not be severe enough on its own to get you sent to the telestial kingdom.

[|] Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Mormonism, in that case you would not go to
> outer darkness. Depending on what the offense was,
> it might not even send you to the telestial
> kingdom. For example, if you insulted someone, but
> didn't apologize, that would not be severe enough
> on its own to get you sent to the telestial
> kingdom.

That is a huge relief. Thank you [|] for sharing that.

I am embarrassed to say that I think I once stole some money from a friend when we were counting it :/ At least I think I stole. I get the impression it wasn't a lot, but stealing is stealing. I understand it is just plain wrong.

At least I think I stole. This event was a long time ago (years before I was baptised, when I wasn't a member of any church and probably not even a Christian - at least I never consciously identifed as such - it was about 35 years ago at least) so I cannot honestly remember. The problem is, how can I go up to them and apologise for something I am not 100% sure I did? I keep thinking, well, if I think I did, I probably did, but I honestly genuinely cannot remember.

It's almost like a fear I might have done so. When I was researching OCD online I came across 'False Memories' (or something like that). You feel like you have done something wrong in the past but you cannot actually remember doing it. It's like you build up a scenario in your mind and take it as real. If I knew for sure, I would risk my friendship and give them back the money (about £20 to £30 - but again, quite why I think that, I don't know because I am not even sure I did steal).

I feel really embarrassed, and whilst it is not for me to say 'I'm a different person now', I really am. I wouldn't dream of doing anything like that now. I'm not trying to deny what I did, either - I honestly cannot remember for definite. It is really scary for me to type that but I felt I had to. I am genuinely sorry and also sorry you had to read that.

Would something like that send me to outer darkness? When I was Christian I most certainly went to Heavenly Father and begged forgiveness.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2021 05:09AM by seajay.

>Would something like that send me to outer darkness?

No. Even if it happened.

First, it happened before you were baptized so it was forgiven when you were baptized.

Second, not eevn that would be enough to send you to outer darkness. As noted above, it requires denying the Holy Ghost after you have gotten "sure knowledge". That is an extremely high bar. Very few mormons will ever get there.

You're welcome seajay

I appreciate that. It's what I was hoping for.

Religious Scrupulosity = OCD plus church

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity

https://iocdf.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/IOCDF-Scrupulosity-Fact-Sheet.pdf

Dallin Ox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Religious Scrupulosity = OCD plus church
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity
>
> https://iocdf.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/IOCDF
> -Scrupulosity-Fact-Sheet.pdf

I can definitely relate to that. Thank you for posting Dallin.