Overheard two Mormon women talking with a nevermo. The TBM was going on and on about her gaggle of grandkids, being raised by two uneducated parents on one meager salary. TBM assured the nevermo that the kids will be fine… “They’re not going to get everything,” as if that sidesteps being raised in poverty.

Can you imagine Bill Gates Sr looking at a Baby Gates in a crib and thinking, “Good luck in life. You’re not going to get everything”?

Besides, The Lard will provide what they really need right? They can't afford one so they have two, three, five, seven. This is one of my pet peeves.

It's child abuse.

It's actually quite surprising (to me) how much of a "traditional" upbringing (including my own) would now be termed - and IS - child abuse. Starting with religious "education" of children, which is indoctrination of defenceless brains...

Two points.

First, I was only speaking of the large number of kids in so many Mormon families, something which happens in other religious families too. Don't get me wrong. I've seen large families work well in cultures that have extended networks of relatives and traditions of kids taking care of kids. I'm thinking in particular of a Lebanese friend's family, in which uncles and aunts were deeply involved and older siblings happily and naturally helped rear the younger ones. I've also seen small farming families in the US get things right in the same way.

But in today's Western world, in which extended families don't live proximately and hence can't help with child rearing, both parents must work for a living, and kids are too busy with school and activities to engage willingly and competently in caring for their younger siblings, there aren't enough resources available to ensure more than two or three kids get what they need. I've seen this in my own extended family, where some of the kids are lost in the crowd growing up and hence never develop the self-confidence and poise necessary to be successful adults. It's tragic.

Second, and more germane to your observation, yes, lots of the child rearing techniques from days gone by are--and should be--recognized as abusive today. Corporal punishment, for instance, is now viewed as cruel and unnecessary; the deprivation of food, education, and even recreational opportunities can in some circumstances represent mistreatment; and severe parental neglect often precipitates legal action. And yes, extreme religious indoctrination--standard Mormon stuff--can certainly be viewed in the same light.

I hate the biblical injunction that children must honor and obey their parents irrespective of how those parents behave. People must earn respect, especially from those whom they have conjured into existence.

Plus, what happens if the wage earner in the family dies or is disabled? Who will support all of those children then?

Silly silly Summer! The Lard will provide!

Upon the wage earner's death or disability, the wife/widow and minor kids can draw benefits based on his earnings. There are a gazillion variations on this, but that's basically how it works.

True, but as a former (child) beneficiary of these funds, I would not want to try to survive on that alone. A woman with six or eight children will likely not be able to rejoin the workforce.

I did make it out though when it really was impossible to see ..

Maybe the vision grandma won't ever again obtain will be available to those grandkids, I don't know.

I loved it when my mom would have a baby (I'm #3 of 6). I took care of them a lot and I did a lot of the raising of my youngest brother because the 5th was disabled and my parents were taking care of him.

So then I had twins. I never considered the amount of responsibility I had taken on until that moment. And I never had any more kids. And imagine if I had more than 2 when my husband left. I was tough and I didn't do a perfect job, but my kids had their material needs taken care of. No sure about emotional and psychological needs.

I have a neighbor who I've talked about before on here. Amazing how many of her family have been sick and they do go fund me quite often. She posted a picture of her family of 6 kids and all her grandkids in front of the temple and it made me weary.

My parents did have 6 kids. My dad was a school teacher, had a Master's. He got his degree while working at night and going to school during the day. I remember the day he graduated and I was only about 4. I have a picture on my wall of him on that day. He worked hard on the farm and then teaching during the day. We didn't have everything, but we never worried about if we'd have a home or food.

I'm so glad I only had 2.

When you say “only two,” I want to say thank you. You gave more of yourself to your kids, rather than stretching yourself thin by having too many.

There’s not a deficiency in too much parenting and guidance in the world.

My TBM cousin and his uber TBM wife had 5 kids and no money for retirement. He then took what he had and some donations and spent it on a mission. Now his house was totally destroyed by a tornado (no joke).

You have to admire his faith, but an act of God took what he had left. They are currently full of faith and "wrong answers."