Why is it called the First Vision instead of the First Visitation? Or just The Visitation? A vision is someone/something you see that isn’t really there. A visitation implies someone is actually there.

Oh, could it be that the early accounts described the claimed event as a vision and that it picked up that name before before the official Father & Son Live and In Person version was canonized? Tell us, oh all-knowing apologists.

Indeed! I think it has to do with the accounts the witnesses gave, where they speak of seeing the plates with their "spiritual eyes". I think Dan Vogel did a bunch of stuff talking about how important visions were considered at the time. It was practically a witness statement if you said you saw it in your mind's eye.

I think Joseph Smith might have ate some mushrooms growing in the woods. They gave him one hell of a hallucination. Maybe he gave them shrooms to the Book of Mormon witnesses. Maybe everyone got high at the Kirkland temple dedication. Maybe the Word of Wisdom came from the church getting too loaded and nobody was getting stuff done but man did they feel and see stuff then.

God and Jesus never visited me when I was smashed out of my skull.

Oooooh no, not the spiders ;-)

I once (much too early in my youth) saw the face of British singer Kevin Ayers' face detach from the cover of his album "Yes, We Have no mañanas..." LP, float into the air about 2 feet from my face and explode into a cloud of pink hearts. It wasn't due to ghawd or angels or whatever, it was simply a chemical reaction. Anyway, although it was fun, Kevin Ayers would never pass for ghawd or Jesus, etc. because: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Ayers

Smith's "visions" don't sound like hallucinations to me, they sound TOTALLY MADE UP ;-)

Rubicon Wrote:
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> I think Joseph Smith might have ate some mushrooms

I think it's far simpler. There were a lot of people in those days claiming to have had visions. JS just decided he needed one too in order to gain a little notoriety. So he simply made it up, following the template set by others before him. When it didn't give him as much fame as he wanted, he embellished the story. And when his survivors needed to enhance his credibility as The Prophet of the Restoration, and to legitimize the new Father & Son With Bodies theology, they promoted the most outlandish version of the "vision."

On the other hand, with all the folk magic, fringe religion, and other nonsense the Smiths engaged in, mind altering substances could've been part of mix.

What's the Second Vision?

...etc.

Still waiting on God and Her only begotten Daughter. That should be a really interesting conversation.

elderolddog Wrote:
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> What's the Second Vision?
>
> ...etc.


Alger's fanny. (sex cult and Uncle Joe's ephedophilia)

Link:
https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Ephebophile

Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter-James-John, the Witnesses' "spiritual eyes", the liquor-induced group visions in the attic of the Kirkland temple, the angel with Flaming Sword...

the (claimed) event was so noteworthy, Joe didn't even bother to record & tell the exact date, sigh...



'just' two heavenly beings giving humans ultra-valuable information / guidance, that's all...

Which one of the seven first visions would you like ?

One dictionary definition:


"A vision is something seen in a dream, trance, or religious ecstasy, especially a supernatural appearance that usually conveys a revelation. ... Visions are known to emerge from spiritual traditions and could provide a lens into human nature and reality. Prophecy is often associated with visions."

Sounds like the religious borrowing a page from the way mediums and the occult work and making it their heavenly own. Like Joes father and the tree of life dream.

Sounds like the Joe thing too. Seems like he started with this "vision" that all the religiosos were doing at the time--not that Joseph followed fads, of course--and then decided to ratchet it up a notch with the live show.

Later it must have occurred to him to claim

Yesterday I was listening to the Mormon Stories interview with Sandra Tanner. In it she tells of the encounter she and Jerald had with LeGrand Richards. The Tanners had sent a letter to Richards (because of some connection) asking why the earliest mentions of the First Vision portrayed a trinitarian deity rather than separate Father and Son. Richards replied that when his grandfather was told of the vision by JS he wrote about it in his journal the same day, and that it tells of the Father and Son and actual bodies.

The Tanners replied they would be very interested in seeing the journal entry. Richards replied with a transcription of selected lines.

The Tanners said they'd like to see the actual journal entry, in context. Richards relented and took them to the church's library, where he looked in the card catalog, got the call number, and had a clerk retrieve the microfilm. Richards rolled the film to the relevant spot and showed it. As they read, Jerald commented that it seemed like the grandfather was writing about an event in the past, not the same day. When he tried to roll the microfilm to find a date, Richards stopped him, took the roll from the viewer and gave it back to the clerk.

But the Tanners had memorized the call number. But when they returned to the library they were told that roll was "out for repairs." They were told the same thing weeks later. Sandra returned months later. The clerk retrieved the microfilm and asked, "How did you have the call number? Because the card had been removed from the file."

So Sandra loaded the film and found the entry they had read before. Then she rolled back and discovered the entry had been written in the 1880s.

But this story makes LeFireBrand Richards out to be a liar!

How can that be?

Next your going to say that BYU conversion therapy took place while Oaks was president!!

1 Nephi 8:2 - (Lehi speaking) ...Behold I have dreamed a dream, or in other words, I have seen a vision.


I always thought that was weird: dreams=visions.

I've had some "visions" then, where I've done some messed up shit.

I suppose Brother Joe, to whom I don't give a break, has had some F'd up visions too.

Of what first vision do you speak?
Do you refer to Joe Jr's hallucination?