https://youtu.be/tlT2JCulIu8

Samantha Bee did a segment on the rise of the Nones in America and why that might not be the best thing for society. (Who is going to run the food kitchens, homeless shelters and hospitals?

The Government? Yeah right!
Capitalists? Uh no. No incentive
Nones? not likely

Without religion to bind us together, what do we have?
Science? Not when we can’t agree on it.
Academia? See above
Secularism? Not any time soon.

A common survival instinct? Sure.

I struggle with this issue a lot. I left the church more than 2 decades ago and feel like I am in a good place today. I've let go much of my anger about the church. However, when you leave the church, it is challenge to re-define what you stand for. The Mormon church has such a rigid ideology that there is no room for "in between." You must either be a righteous Mormon or you are a wicked or less valiant person.

I see my nieces and nephews that leave the church encounter more challenges than I did at their age. I have a niece that is into drugs, a nephew that was addicted to video games and another niece who appears to be having a mental health crisis. Even though I left the church behind long ago, I can't help but to wonder if some of my family members would be better off belonging to a culture that gives them more structure. I would almost rather see my 16 year old niece go to church rather than stay home and watch the Kardashians.

I think this is the great challenge of our time. Can we live a Christ-like life without believing he actually existed?? I am still trying to figure this out as a middle aged man.

Not buying the premise, however much I like Sammy Bee. Having lived in and near Canada for several decades, they are largely a nation of Nones, and seem to be handling social justice issues better than the US, especially better than the Bible Belt states in the US.

Canada has a small anti-vaxxer population relative to the US, and it is concentrated in conservative religious communities in the country. The group I hear the most about are the Mennonites around Steinbach, Manitoba. There's a certain irony to that.

BTW, ya know what's better than running food kitchens and homeless shelters? Drastically reducing the need for them in the first place, like not dumping the mentally ill out on the street because it is cheaper.

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
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> BTW, ya know what's better than running food
> kitchens and homeless shelters? Drastically
> reducing the need for them in the first place,
> like not dumping the mentally ill out on the
> street because it is cheaper.

Abso-bloody-lutely

My sister works with folks who are mentally ill and/or homeless. For most of my life I've seen people living on the streets (many due to addiction issues, which could also use some prevention strategies and more informed assistance). It seems like a never-ending battle and it's largely charities and church organizations that help them day-to-day. It's hard to believe we can get ourselves to outer space, which took a few brains, but can't strategize how to respect our own planet and the people on it who need assistance in various ways.

Here in "Beautiful B.C." years ago the government shut down a major facility for in-patient care for people living with mental illness and the residents were just turfed out onto the streets with no plan, no strategies, no assistance, no follow up, nowhere to go, nobody to help. Completely appalling and somehow they can't figure out a way to put that genie back in the bottle. Because they must just not care enough to try.

More recently, Mom and I used to make piles of sandwiches every week and distribute them to homeless folks out on the streets. It's a yawning hopeless feeling that there's so many hungry people and we could only do so many sandwiches and that was only one meal a week. The situation only gets worse...

I don't think the premise of America being united in religion was ever in evidence to begin with.

Kind human beings pop up everywhere, under the most astounding of contrasting environments and conditions...except maybe the Donner Party, et al.

People in front of an attentive audience need things to talk about, but that doesn't assure us that what they have to say is allows interesting, much less important, or even useful. (fer ghawds sakes, look at my buddy Judic West!!!)

I don't have a defensible, reasoned explanation, but overall I think that there won't be much of a change in the percentage of kind people to unkind people over the next few generations.

And hopefully, kind people with learning will create sanctuaries for humans who want to practice kindness and caring, and the unkind profiteers will leave them alone, to concentrate on the humans who are guided in their lives by social media and advertisements.


...damn it! I feel another midlife crisis coming on!!

elderolddog Wrote:
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> And hopefully, kind people with learning will
> create sanctuaries for humans who want to practice
> kindness and caring, and the unkind profiteers
> will leave them alone, to concentrate on the
> humans who are guided in their lives by social
> media and advertisements.

Unfortunately, kind people who are not guided in their lives by social media or advertisements or organized religions are uncivilized, unorganized, and a threat to the status quo.

> ...damn it! I feel another midlife crisis coming
> on!!

You should consult a doctor about that and nearly everything else going on in your mind and body.

I need to find a Ph.D. who can guide me via cutting edge herbs & spices

I'm sure Utah abounds with PHDs with just the right essential oils for you.

On the rare occasions that I turn on television, I'm struck by all the private charities with hat in hand begging for funding.

Some Americans rally around our servicemembers, but for those who complete their service with broken bodies, the Americans don't think it's appropriate for the government to pay for care for their medical needs the rest of their lives.

Some Americans push for women to carry all pregnancies to term, but then they don't want the government to pay for the care for the children born with disabilities.

And of course, some Americans don't want the homeless or the poor to be helped by the rest of us either through the government either, because how dare they not be made to suffer.


And so private charity after private charity begs for our dollars, when broader, more comprehensive solutions could exist, if there were willingness to agree that the government is the means through which we funnel common action as a society.

But there isn't, and suffering continues perforce.

Tyson

Tyson Dunn Wrote:
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> ... broader, more comprehensive
> solutions could exist, if there were willingness
> to agree that the government is the means through
> which we funnel common action as a society.

We have helping programs through the govt in Canada and a majority of Canadians seem happy enough with that. However, we don't seem to get to the roots of what causes the issues - I mean either in total understanding of their roots or in adequate approaches to ameliorating them.

But it's better than thinking that our philosophy should be every person for themselves and taking zero responsibility as a society for those in need of assistance. First, creating helping measures demonstrates that people do care and second, they do help many people. One important concept to accept is that blaming people for their misfortunes is most often unfair, inaccurate and obviously not helpful. It's so easy to think that our own relatively OK situation is purely a product of our own work, talent and efforts. First, the circumstances into which we are born play a big part in how our lives start out, at least, if not how they eventually turn out. For instance, would we have enjoyed our childhood as we did if our parents had been not been who they were; would we be able to achieve the education we desired if we couldn't get financial assistance, etc.

Too, I've met many homeless people who used to have good jobs but their product became obsolete or the company folded or the economy tanked and they lost their work and struggled to find a new direction. It doesn't take long to lose one's financial footing if a steady income is suddenly interrupted. Or people can become addicted to a prescription medication given to them by their well-intentioned physician and their life can spiral downward unexpectedly. The descent can be rapid, the comeback nearly impossible at a certain point. It's easy to see a guy begging on the streets and think it's his own choice or fault but there's always a human story behind the hand held out in hope that maybe they can eat that day.

One of the most memorable and heartbreaking encounters I've had is one time when I spoke to an Indigenous man who was homeless when he came into a mission for a meal. He told me about his parents having been forced into church-run residential schools by the government (as happened in Canada up into the 1990s), which was the origin for them, as for countless others, of developing alcoholism. The accompanying family dynamics have continued to cause many social and emotional challenges for the children growing up with alcoholic parents, as happened with this man. He was intelligent and well-spoken, which you would never come to know if all you saw was just another homeless guy looking for a "handout". Easy to blame people for their situation in life. Harder perhaps to take the time to understand.

When I was training as a nurse, I kept a favourite poem in mind about caring for people. It featured an elderly lady who hoped that nurses could realize that she was a worthwhile person, even though in her waning years. She asks them to see beyond her cane and her wrinkles, saying "Look closer, nurses, see ME".

I often think of that line: "see me" and hope I always remember it. Too, it reminds me of "the poor wayfaring stranger". There are times that could have been a friend of mine or a family member or even myself. Or just a fellow human with hunger pangs.

I don't mind a few of my tax dollars being directed at reaching out to help others. Given a chance, I believe they would do the same for me.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2021 11:53PM by Nightingale.

You hit the nail on the head completely!

Yes, beautiful.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
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> Yes, beautiful.


Woke Nones as the new cult.

You got that right.

Head of the ASPCA gets $750,000 plus a year salary.

Check out the Susan Komen breast cancer thing. Only 21 percent goes to breast cancer and the rest is administrative. The head gets $684,000 + a year after her last 64% raise.

Check out any big charity and you'll find pretty much the same.

I agree with Tyson. Americans religious or otherwise have a lot of nerve even using the word charity.

Religion does not own kindness and never did. I resent Ms Bee's insinuation.

Ditto to every word there, D&D.

As if religion unites. Eye roll. Maybe in Iran.

Food pantry locations in my area are provided by faith based, government and non profit organizations alike. I'm guessing people like me who donate and volunteer are giving SC the middle finger for lumping what we do as part of religion.

Haha. "As if religion unites. Eye roll. Maybe in Iran."

I laughed way too hard at that.

Religion in Iran definitely does unite.

It has united over 2/3 of the country in the rejection of religion, especially state religion; and a large plurality of the populace in atheism. If you want to discredit a religion, give it political power. Soon everyone will see how corrupt it really is.

I don't imagine that's a stat announced by the Mullahs...

Nope. But the breakdown roughly follows the urban/rural divide. The regime's power base has always been among reactionary Muslims in the countryside; the cities were pretty much Western until the transitory wave of extremism washed across Iran in the late 1970s.

Since then the failures of the regime have taken an enormous toll. Now there are frequent large-scale demonstrations, public opinion polls (until Trump) showed the US was the most popular foreign country, people routinely imbibe alcohol at parties and in their homes, and sexual mores in the cities are perhaps as open as in the United States (albeit probably less than in Europe). Meanwhile the women in black in the hinterland remain as committed to the Mullahs as ever.

It's a pity that in recent years US policy has been effectively to strengthen the hands of the reactionaries rather than driving a wedge between the government and the people as had been happening. What religion divides, misguided policy from external enemies sometimes unites.

True. I meant that as a joke but sort of failed.
I was trying to think of a place where they might still punish people for not following the religious laws. Nothing unites like the threat of being burned at the stake.

It’s amazing to me our kids turned out as well as they did when we put a smartphone in their hands at infancy and said, knock yourself out!”

them when they wouldn’t put down the smart phones and Xboxes, we put them on aderol and subjected them to mass shooter drills. How does anybody survive all that shit?
‘New Math” where 2+2 only equals 4 if you want it to?
That’s the nonsense my kids were indoctrinated to believe.
They survived.
And they turned out ok, despite all we did to f’ them up.

It’s a miracle they are doing as well in this world as they are.
The way I look at it, being alive everyday makes it the greatest day ever!
Every day we survive all the destruction in the cosmos, is a gad damn miracle.

Charity Schmarity! The last couple of nights the news proudly does a piece on a charitable giveaway--full blown Thanksgiving meals. Seems nice until I notice they are just driving up in their shiny new SUVs and other nice cars, rolling down the window, and picking up the loot at the drive-by giveaway.

I have an employee who does this. Makes a great salary and still goes to all the charity give aways.

I know all these people think they are doing a great thing and are really proud of themselves. But I would have been more impressed if they could have got the food to those who would really truly have nothing without it. Of if I could have seen one more clunker drive up and one less hand reaching out for the turkey with an expensive be-jazzled manicure.

Charity is the little things we do for each other. Or, use to be. Now it's so show off and not well thought out.

I see that there is a lot of trouble coming, the most charitable people are the wealthy and usually religious,, they are the ones who create the jobs, who are the large donors to the hospitals the ones who build the football stadiums, the rest of us live off their good will towards us, the trouble is that there's this push back movement to 'tax the rich' and make them pay their fair share, as if 39% tax on income isn't enough, for the top bracket, now they want to punish the billionaires even more, I look at my own taxes and have decided that I pay enough and don't want to give to private charities. When the government is so generous with other people's money, which I think most people are likely in my way of thinking, so charity suffers big time, what we need are more Jon Gaults to lead the way!

Lol. macaRomney thinks rich people pay taxes.

Somebody please explain to him the difference between nominal and effective tax rates. Tell him that Elon Musk paid zero income taxes last year, that the last time Romney publicized his taxes (for electoral purposes) his filings showed that he'd paid 11.5%, and that in 10 of the 15 years for which Trump last had to reveal his taxes (for a lawsuit) he paid zero.

The modern Jon Gault (spelled "John Galt" for those who have actually read Ayn Rand) is a tax cheat and a welfare mom who pays a lower tax rate than his pedicurist and paperboy let alone his executive assistant and accountant.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2021 01:53PM by Lot's Wife.

John Galt - the story of the wasting of a beautiful mind. And it has a happy ending in the wasting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2021 02:30PM by Elder Berry.

In the book, Galt organizes an effective strike by all the financial and industrial tycoons in the belief that without their taxes and other support society would collapse. The irony is that the rich in the United States have been on strike for decades, having used their donations to politicians to open so many loopholes in the code that they pay exceptionally low income and other tax rates.

Yet despite that fact, some people believe the magnates are bearing unfair burdens. Pity the poor billionaire, weeping in his box at the opera on whose board he so magnanimously sits.

^This^

Plus, you systematically under fund the IRS so they don't collect many taxes the uber wealthy owe.

That is right.

The rich are expensive to tax. They'll take you to court and make you expend time and money fighting in the hope of an eventual settlement. So if the IRS is deprived of funds, its investigators give up on the rich and focus their scrutiny on the middle class. To that extent, any reduction in enforcement funds redounds to the benefit of the wealthiest and to the disadvantage of the government, taxpayers, and future generations.

Yes. This is the secret most people miss. Auditing the super rich is too much work. The IRS goes where the easy money is.

The IRS and Scientology have been battling for years, Scientology wore out the IRS. All religions should pay taxes because they are all spouting the same nonsense.

moehoward Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The IRS and Scientology have been battling for
> years, Scientology wore out the IRS. All religions
> should pay taxes because they are all spouting the
> same nonsense.

I really do not understand the thinking behind this statement, beginning with: all Native American groups have their own "religions." How, exactly, do you envision that taxes be levied on their individual assets and individual earnings?

In Judaism, tzedakah ("charity," in common American English) is a fundamental, structural, part of the Jewish way of life. Before Jewish kids even begin kindergarten, they are setting aside part of whatever they receive (as gifts, for doing household chores, etc.) for the charitable causes of their own choice (often animal welfare....buying food and showers and portable toilets for homeless people....buying toys, clothes, and food for children in extreme poverty at Christmas time, etc.).

I understand what you are trying to say, but the way you are saying it does not come close to describing how American life (often from toddlerhood on) actually works in the USA.

There is a HUGE difference between Scientology and a good chunk of the religious lives of many/most Americans, and it is illogical and misleading to conflate all American religions and religious traditions with the extreme situations of the few, such as Scientology, who are taking unjust advantage of current laws.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2021 02:13PM by Tevai.

It's one different thing entirely, that maybe almost any business tycoon who has many employees supports an incredibly wide and expansive tax base.

Think for a second about a whole hidden industry that is maybe controlled by MormØŽism, where their dominion over the possible largely high percentage of LDS employees guarantees ten percent of gross salaries donated to the church.

If something, almost anything interrupts that 10% expected donation suddenly they don't work there anymore.

Claiming America has "its religion" might not be a good thing.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Claiming America has "its religion" might not be a
> good thing.

I agree with this.

If the OP has a specific religion in mind, then whatever that religion may be, it is NOT (in this sense) "America's religion."

If the OP does not have a SPECIFIC religion in mind, then EVERY religion in the USA is "America's religion"--which would include many different kinds of beliefs and practices I don't think the OP would consider appropriate or probably even possible: seances; necromancy; Native American religions; psychic readings; divination; Hinduism (from before elementary school through much of my early adulthood, I was raised as a part of the Vedanta [Hindu] Temple in Hollywood); past life readings; voodoo; etc.

I had this discussion with my father-in-law. He was going on about prayer in school and I pointed out that would need to apply to EVERYONE. He wasn't too thrilled with that idea.

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had this discussion with my father-in-law. He
> was going on about prayer in school and I pointed
> out that would need to apply to EVERYONE. He
> wasn't too thrilled with that idea.

:D

The purpose of public prayers was always to say “we’re in charge here, and don’t you forget it.” The weird liquor laws in Utah (remember private clubs?) had the exact same purpose, just a different “we”.

Having to allow all forms of prayer from various religions would of course totally defeat the purpose,

Here is a list of atheist/secular charities (not exhaustive just a sample):

Atheists Helping the Homeless
Local groups of atheists who give out toiletries and other items to the homeless.

Atheist Alliance Helping The Homeless
Local groups of atheists who give out toiletries and other items to the homeless.

Atheist Refugee Relief
Their aim is to provide practical assistance to refugees without religion and to improve their living conditions through political work.

Foundation Beyond Belief
This is a humanist charity that promotes secular volunteering and responsible charitable giving locally, nationally and around the world.

Their programs include:

· Grants: providing an avenue for humanists to regularly give to highly qualified and vetted charities in a number of cause areas.

· Disaster Recovery: providing humanists an avenue to donate to a qualified and vetted charity in the event of a disaster and sending volunteers out to help rebuild after a disaster strikes.

· Service Corps: An international volunteering program supporting and strengthening local, well-established nonprofits to improve lives.

· Volunteer Network: supporting secular groups in doing service activities in their local communities with our Beyond Belief Network.

Nonbelief Relief
A humanitarian agency that works internationally to remedy or reduce human suffering and injustice, whether caused by natural disasters, human actions or the influence of religious doctrines.

The largest charity organization in India (the Gora foundation) is atheist/secular. We atheists do not get enough credit for our charitable works.

HH =)