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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: December 28, 2021 05:27PM

MORmON CULT’s publishing arm, Deseret Books recruited their one token black Mormon to contribute to an anti-racist project, which he agreed to do, on condition they didn’t try to police his words, which they agreed to do, then they rejected him because he dared to criticize Holland for his ‘Git Yer Muskets and defend the faith’ speech.

https://medium.com/@jamescjones/deseret-book-attempts-to-serve-god-and-bigotry-f5f7c824f0b5

“Putting people’s comforts or really anything over people’s humanity is idolatry and not the church nor Deseret Book will ever succeed in fulfilling their mission until they destroy the golden calf of heteronormative white supremacy.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2021 06:53PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 28, 2021 05:45PM

              "Don't Frown on my Brown!"

    From Primary, through MIA, Seminary,
a Mission, BYU, Temple Marriage, and a
calling as an EQP, the silly, skinny Brown
Boy kept notes . . .

    by Anonymous


    just sayin' . . .

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: December 28, 2021 05:54PM

Well, Maca will be pleased.

Just two days ago he complained about the church's new "stop being racist! rhetoric." Now that the church has rejected that nonsense, perhaps he'll return to the hallowed chapel.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2410248,2410343#msg-2410343

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Posted by: Maca ( )
Date: December 29, 2021 01:00PM

Someone mention my name?
Hi lots wife.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: December 28, 2021 06:14PM

Well, the musket speech was by Dodo Holland, not Hoax - which you would know if you actually read the article you posted (if no other way).

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 28, 2021 06:15PM

He's a headliner!

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: December 28, 2021 07:48PM

No reason to be rude.
I read it, just mixed up the geriatric patriarchs who warm the throne.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 28, 2021 06:53PM

Well I can see why that didn't fly.

The church leaders were expecting a "step and fetchit" to say they have NEVER been racists and proclaim that the church is at the forefront of anti-bigotry" knowing this statement carries more weight from a Mormon of color and were already singing, "We're in the Money" when they hired him not realizing they had procured the services of a highly, educated, guy who wields words better than they could ever hope to do and isn't afraid of the truth.

They wanted a blessing from this guy. They wanted just a smattering of lip service to use to advertise to the world that they are always tweaking their beacon of inclusion no matter who you are.

I can hear people behind the scenes. "You show this to Oaks and Bednar abd Holland. "I"m not doing it. You do it. It's your job." "Not anymore."
"Please. You do it. I've got a wife and kids."


What the hell is this guy doing being Mormon?

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: December 28, 2021 08:20PM

Done & Done says: “What the hell is this guy doing being Mormon?”

With the greatest respect to James C. Jones, author of the linked article, I wonder the same thing. I can’t see myself belonging to a group that fundamentally sees me as less than. Oh wait. I did join one like that. For a New York Minute. A little group calling itself The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. But they soon made it obvious that a convert is less than. And especially a female convert who is single. One of the missionaries told me while I was still wringing wet from my misguided dunk: “Now it’s your job to get married.” Job? Of course, they didn’t happen to mention that before they got me in the tank. And Job #2 would be: Spit out babies. Soon as. Then your life will be complete, as God intended. Or Joseph Smith. Or somebody.

Back to J. C. Jones and his article: ‘Deseret Book Attempts to Serve God and Bigotry’ (Dec 2021). (NB: I note that it’s Deseret Books that hired him, not the church, if there’s a significant difference).

The following statements in the article really caught my attention. (I took care to preserve context; I hope I succeeded):

“…they [Des Books] invited me to teach a class on abandoning attitudes and actions of prejudice…

“I took the task very seriously because I knew that this would be the first time explicitly anti-racist content was produced and distributed by Deseret Book or by the church.

“This would likely be the first anti-racist education many members of the church received, let alone theologically based anti-racist education. I felt that weight. Yet, content that the church needs desperately — like yesterday — content that’s going to provide tools for white folks to fight prejudice, content that’s going to make existence in this church easier for me and people that look like me so that we ain’t gotta feel so alone in this church, content that I know is going to shift us more into alignment with the church that we are supposed to be — the fully integrated and diversified church of the new testament — that content is not going to be published by Deseret Book because I did the very thing they hired me to teach other people how to do.

“Perhaps they do have some sort of secret menu mission statement that condemns criticism of the brethren, but what I believe to be the more honest grievance is distilled in this sentence they wrote to me when they finally got specific about what their problem was: “…Referring to leaders as ‘homophobic overwhelmingly white ecclesiastical leaders born in the Jim Crow era’ feels offensive to our audience…”. I actually laughed when I came across that line because 1. homophobia is far more offensive than being called a homophobe 2. none of the words I used were pejoratives, but descriptors 2.5. where was the lie and 3. making this about their predominantly straight white audience’s feelings misses the whole point of what they hired me to teach. …

“…The marginalized know their experiences better than the privileged ever could and, therefore, they should be listened to, especially the experts in that community. But, the mic and the space still belong to the privileged and, therefore, their comforts and sensibilities are centered. So, if Deseret Book invites me into their predominantly straight white space to tell their straight white audience how to fight prejudice and I say anything that upsets their straight white comfort or offends their straight white sensibilities, they can talk over me, derail the conversation, cut the mic, or kick me out. And that’s what they did.

“Deseret Book missed an opportunity because they value the feelings of their audience and performative ecclesiastical fealty more than the humanity of Black and queer people. That’s not just bad allyship, but it’s bad theology. Putting people’s comforts or really anything over people’s humanity is idolatry and not the church nor Deseret Book will ever succeed in fulfilling their mission until they destroy the golden calf of heteronormative white supremacy.

“Deseret Book is trying to serve two masters. They say they’re committed to fighting prejudice while they refuse to fight the brethren’s.”


This statement struck me, after all of the above (and I ask why Jones feels this way – out of a desire to understand, not to condemn):

“To be clear, I still sustain [the] brethren.”


Jones states re the leaders “…refusing to challenge and interrogate definitionally homophobic policies, acts, and words done in the name of …Christ…"

“I sustain the brethren by holding them accountable to the Christ that leads this church and the Christ I see in our sacred texts, especially when any of the brethren present a Christ nowhere to be found in them, like Elder Holland did.”

Wow. Are there repercussions for making such statements against church leaders (especially if one were to publish them)?


Jones calls people out to object when they see these wrongs occurring in the church. He says “make your disagreement known”.

“There’s no virtue in silent sympathy. Even some slaveowners had that. … You could lose a calling, a friend, or … a job opportunity..." [but speak out anyway].


He’s got a big hill to climb. I predict he will wear himself out and no-one in church leadership will care.

I can see that his straightforward remarks on the issue of colour would be offensive to some people and perhaps especially church leaders. It can be tough, sure enough, to hear/read such statements.

But. Truth to Power. And all that.

Jones said that now that his job with Des Books didn't work out he still wants to publish his essay, when he has the means. I hope somebody funds him. He's got some good stuff to say. And maybe at some point the church and its various arms won't be able to stifle him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2021 08:28PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 28, 2021 08:43PM

"He’s got a big hill to climb. I predict he will wear himself out and no-one in church leadership will care."

I predict they will be relieved.

I wish he would condense his story down to a couple of paragraphs and get it in the Trib. If he made some noise right away it could almost be a one-two punch with what the Billionaire did. His two masters angle is catchy.

And really. Why on earth is he Mormon? I have to admit that his explanation of supporting the brethren did not leave me sated. Sounded like rationalization. J.C. Jones appears to attempting to serve two masters as well.

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Posted by: blackcoatsdaughter ( )
Date: December 29, 2021 09:49AM

Maybe he's NOM? Maybe he believes there's something salvageable in the church and decides to stick around to try to influence change from within?

Maybe he's like me and hasn't resigned because he wants to challenge the church to take us off the roster themselves if they're so displeased with what we have to say. If they refuse to excommunicate me/Jones, then they're going to have to deal with the fact that I am a member speaking out against the claims of the church. And if they DO excommunicate us, then we win because it proves the records matter more to them than it does to me and it's all about appearances and control to them.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 29, 2021 07:33PM

Yes. Good points. Or, he has read one of the other contributors to the project, "Holding On When the Impulse is to Leave" with Michael Wilcox. ;)

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: December 30, 2021 01:39AM

"J.C. Jones appears to be attempting to serve two masters as well."

And that just doesn't work. You can't ride two horses with one ass.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: December 30, 2021 06:57PM

>You can't ride two horses with one ass

Sure you can

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vu1ZOgT5Dk

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: December 28, 2021 08:46PM

Done & Done Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What the hell is this guy doing being Mormon?

I asked him for you, why do you choose to remain a member of a church that’s so racist it publishes white supremacist scriptures unapologetically?”
He replied, ‘Yooooooooo, Man! That’s not a question you ask a black guy w/o some foreplay, lol! I have written much on this subject and done podcasts.”

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 29, 2021 10:17AM

Nice way to say, "I've got my reasons." which I take it he has.

Apparently he sees the SLC Forcefield as penetrable. Good for him. He's very impressive. Could probably start his own church if he wanted.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: December 29, 2021 11:33AM

From his podcast intro,” Brother Jones and Brother Knox describe themselves as staunch advocates for the theology and harsh critics of the culture when it comes to Mormonism. A black life-long member and queer convert respectively, they bring a less heard perspective to the notoriously white and heteronormative faith. They feel their desire for justice, love, and salvation for all people, regardless of color, sex, orientation, and other identities is not only consistent with the message of Christ, but *is* the message of Christ. In that spirit, they share their thoughtful, honest, and occasionally raw and humorous take on Mormonism in an effort to shift the culture of Mormonism more into alignment with the theology of Mormonism.’

Good luck, the theology is inextricably white supremacist.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 29, 2021 11:37AM

This makes sense. They join with the misconception that the church is actually Christ-centric. Somebody need to tell Brother Jones and Brother Knox is that what God supposedly told Joseph is true of Mormons as well:

"They draw near to me with their words, but their hearts are far from me."

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: December 29, 2021 06:55PM

What’s interesting to me is I just asked why he chooses to remain a member of a racist church? He responds by saying I can’t ask that of a black dude? WTF difference does the color of your skin make in determining right and wrong? I mean if racism is wrong isn’t it just as wrong whether you are white or black?
He claims the theology says God loves you regardless of skin color, sex or sexual orientation but that sounds more like Unitarian Universalism than MORmONism.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: December 29, 2021 10:54PM

I listened to their podcast, Why We Believe,
https://beyondtheblockpodcast.com/episodes/bonus-why-we-believe-s1!7acbd

Sounds like they both really believe in MORmONism and God is guiding them, to make changes in the culture, but the theology is perfect.

Of course they ignore a lot, like the racist, white supremacy in the scriptures which nobody can deny, without lying through their teeth.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: December 29, 2021 09:18AM

Excellent article. Mr Jones is a far better writer than the average GA. Perhaps than any of the current crop of GAs. It would do them all some good to hear more from people like him.

I don’t think it was so much racial bigotry that got his course cancelled. It was that the Q15 will brook no direct criticism from anyone, on any subject. I do imagine that criticism from a Black, particularly one who is a better writer, and likely a better speaker than they are, is especially problematic in their view. They hate to compare unfavorably to people who don’t even look like them.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 30, 2021 03:42PM

Nice video by Brother Joes, posted to YT in late November of this year, where he addresses mormonism's seeming inability to fully address the church's descent into racism. Actually, he skewers the church.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk2Rv2tGPRE

It's hard for an innocent Exmo like me to figure out how, not to mention why, he remains mormon...  Not only remains a mormon but has been made a member of his ward's bishopric...

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: December 30, 2021 05:50PM

I watched that video.
The way he frames MORmON racism as if it’s all in the past and focuses on the one scripture saying all races are one in the eyes of God, completely ignores the fact I couldn’t open my MORmON scripture without encountering black = bad, evil, cursed, wicked, lost and white = good, virtuous, virginal, prosperous, blessings.

That is actively doing harm to people around the world by normalizing, institutionalizing the institution of racism in the world, by perpetuating long disproven racist 19th Century myths.

I think this guy is great for working on reforming MORmONism from the inside, ala Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons, but what neither of them seems to realize, or care about, until the theology changes, to eliminate the abusive racism, misogyny, and hate towards gays, any other CULTural changes are meaningless.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2021 05:51PM by schrodingerscat.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: December 30, 2021 06:29PM

I'm too mentally tired to watch it right now.

I get his stance on the church and his support, but, did he bear his testimony saying he KNOWS?

I won't list my suspicioins for his espousing of Mormonism so passionately at this time but I would say he has learned the Art of the Facade. Hey. Great book title. No? Has it been done?

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 30, 2021 07:03PM

    

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