https://buffalonews.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/buffalos-worst-mass-shooting-takes-10-lives-leaves-3-wounded-attack-called-a-racially-motivated/article_6e8132fa-d3b7-11ec-a714-2b3fbeaf848c.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10817615/Buffalo-white-supremacist-shot-dead-ten-threatened-shoot-classmate-graduation.html

The murderer, who I will not dignify by naming him, was motivated by racism, hate, and white "christian" nationalism — just like the El Paso and Charleston shooters before him.

And this is just the beginning. America is awash with weapons. We're only going to see more incidents like this in the future unless we as a nation take the hatred in our midst seriously, and given the current religious and political situation in America, this is unlikely.

What are the "Fourteen Words?"

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/14-words

"14 Words" is a reference to the most popular white supremacist slogan in the world: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children." The slogan was coined by David Lane, a member of the white supremacist terrorist group known as The Order (Lane died in prison in 2007). The term reflects the primary white supremacist worldview in the late 20th and early 21st centuries: that unless immediate action is taken, the white race is doomed to extinction by an alleged "rising tide of color" purportedly controlled and manipulated by Jews.

Because of its widespread popularity, white supremacists reference this slogan constantly, in its full form as well as in abbreviated versions such as "14 Words", "Fourteen Words," or simply the number "14."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteen_Words#Origins

A strong resemblance of the first definition to a statement in Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf has been pointed out, albeit not by Lane or by Fourteen Word Press. Scholars such as Barry Balleck have stated that Lane was almost certainly influenced by Hitler, specifically the following statement in Mein Kampf.[3]

What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe. Every thought and every idea, every doctrine and all knowledge, must serve this purpose. And everything must be examined from this point of view and used or rejected according to its utility.

— Mein Kampf, Vol. I, Chapter 8[3]

According to scholar Mattias Gardell, David Lane taught something he called the "Pyramid Prophecy 666",[28] which included the concept that a Bible code was inserted by "Aryan adepts" within the King James Version of the Christian Bible. Gardell's book Gods of the Blood states "The number 1776 appears in the numeric square of Mars in which is found the Star of David and its 741 formula, 741 also being the value of the 14 Words in simple English gematria." Lane claimed both 14 word slogans came to him while asleep, and that the sentences each contained 61 letters, 20 syllables, 74 characters and the 741 value. Elaborating, he described himself in the "Pyramid Prophecy" as the "666 Sun Man" trying to "save white people" with America being the "Beast system" bent on "destroying white people" – views that were censored by Ron McVan and others who found the messianic claims counterproductive by "turning off potential converts".[29]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2022 08:44AM by anybody.

A wise man: "If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you have always got."

Nothing will change until the will to change comes along.

I agree, the politicians are "outraged" but there will be no legislation accordingly.

There has been legislation to flood Ukraine with weapons, which will go all over Europe so we aren't the only ones with mass shootings. Fair's fair, right?

Hardly,

bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There has been legislation to flood Ukraine with
> weapons, which will go all over Europe so we
> aren't the only ones with mass shootings. Fair's
> fair, right?

1. A war is a different proposition (although still a tragedy). If you are attacked, with potential life-threatening consequences, it's not too self-preserving to refuse assistance.

2. You don't know the "flood" of weapons will "go all over Europe"; or

3. Even if they do so, that there will be "mass shootings".

So it's better to state possibilities, however remote, rather than throwing out assumptions for which there is little to no evidence.

Mass shootings should be against the law. It would probably help if they didn't get so much publicity.

Binghamton is hours away from Buffalo. This guy drove a long way. Not enough black people back home? I've been on Jefferson Ave a few times. It's definitely black but with some gentrification nowadays. You can get a house cheap there.

None of this makes any sense. Conspiracy theories will come out of the woodwork. Digital forensics may reveal how this guy got radicalized. One thing's for sure. He will be in prison with a lot of large black men.

It does if you look at how the issue is being framed. It would be helpful if Fox's Tucker Carlson would stop espousing, or at least pull back from, his support for race replacement theory, a concept that began with Adolf Hitler. Unfortunately, my guess is that he won't do either but instead double down on that theory.

Edit to add: I just heard an interview on NPR's Weekend Edition Sunday with Tamara Keith about the political response to the Buffalo shooting. The blue party is arguing that these shootings are a result of the growth in the white supremacist movement. The red party is arguing that the blue party is painting with too broad of a brush.

More importantly, perhaps, is that Ms. Keith indicated that recent polling data shows that approximately 1 out of 3 adults (1/3) in the United States believes in the white replacement theory espoused by Tucker Carlson and others. With those kind of polling numbers, it is not hard to see why one of the parties doesn't view white supremacism not so much as a threat but as an opportunity to pick up more power.

Oh, how I wish the fairness doctrine (for controversial topics) and the Equal Time Rule (for political candidates vying for office) were back in play for radio and television--but nobody is arguing for that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2022 09:19PM by blindguy.

Who taught this psychopath to hate? They should face prosecution too.

This eighteen year old will find a lot of diversity in his prison. He's too young to realize that your point of view can change dramatically between 20, 40, 60 years old, etc. Now (for good reason,) he will be locked into the consequences of a decision made in his youth.

To your point summer, watch some old videos of the Manson girls at about 50 years old. You can tell they realize what idiots they were at that young age. What a waste.

moehoward Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To your point summer, watch some old videos of the
> Manson girls at about 50 years old. You can tell
> they realize what idiots they were at that young
> age. What a waste.

That's interesting. I haven't seen those videos. You know that saying that youth is wasted on the young. We usually have to learn things the hard way and if we're lucky we'll survive intact and grow into benign maturity.

What were you expecting ?

so there's been some small progress in the right direction.

Sarcasm intended.

why can we not just ban white-supremacist hate-speech and pass laws to prevent white supremacists from obtaining guns before one more innocent life is lost ??? ~


committing mass murder for hateful reasons should be a crime in every country across the globe ~

America, Land of the free (where we lock up more of our population than any other country on the planet) and home of the Brave (where we have more guns than humans) and any psychotic white supremacist is ‘free’ to walk around with a fully loaded AR-15 and shoot innocent people.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...and any psychotic white
> supremacist is ‘free’ to walk around with a
> fully loaded AR-15 and shoot innocent people.

One of the scary parts is they're not necessarily psychotic.

Psychosis is a symptom, not a diagnosis.

National Alliance on Mental Illness:

https://www.nami.org/About-Mental-Illness/Mental-Health-Conditions/Psychosis

“Psychosis is characterized as disruptions to a person’s thoughts and perceptions that make it difficult for them to recognize what is real and what isn’t. These disruptions are often experienced as seeing, hearing and believing things that aren’t real or having strange, persistent thoughts, behaviors and emotions.

“Early warning signs include the following:

A worrisome drop in grades or job performance

Trouble thinking clearly or concentrating

Suspiciousness or uneasiness with others

A decline in self-care or personal hygiene

Spending a lot more time alone than usual

Strong, inappropriate emotions or having no feelings at all”


“Signs of early or first-episode psychosis

“Determining exactly when the first episode of psychosis begins can be hard, but these signs and symptoms strongly indicate an episode of psychosis:

Hearing, seeing, tasting or believing things that others don’t
Persistent, unusual thoughts or beliefs that can’t be set aside regardless of what others believe

Strong and inappropriate emotions or no emotions at all

Withdrawing from family or friends

A sudden decline in self-care

Trouble thinking clearly or concentrating"


“Such warning signs often point to a person’s deteriorating health, and a physical and neurological evaluation can help find the problem. A mental health professional performing a psychological evaluation can determine if a mental health condition is involved.


“Psychosis includes a range of symptoms but typically involves one of these two major experiences:

“Hallucinations are seeing, hearing or feeling things that aren’t there, such as the following:

Hearing voices (auditory hallucinations)

Strange sensations or unexplainable feelings

Seeing glimpses of objects or people that are not there or distortions”


“Delusions are strong beliefs that are not consistent with the person’s culture, are unlikely to be true and may seem irrational to others, such as the following:

Believing external forces are controlling thoughts, feelings and behaviors

Believing that trivial remarks, events or objects have personal meaning or significance

Thinking you have special powers, are on a special mission or even that you are God.”


“Several factors that can contribute to psychosis:

“Genetics. Many genes can contribute to the development of psychosis, but just because a person has a gene doesn’t mean they will experience psychosis. Ongoing studies will help us better understand which genes play a role in psychosis.

“Trauma. A traumatic event such as a death, war or sexual assault can trigger a psychotic episode. The type of trauma—and a person’s age—affects whether a traumatic event will result in psychosis.

“Substance use. The use of marijuana, LSD, amphetamines and other substances can increase the risk of psychosis in people who are already vulnerable.

“Physical illness or injury. Traumatic brain injuries, brain tumors, strokes, HIV and some brain diseases such as Parkinson’s, Alzheimer’s and dementia can sometimes cause psychosis.

“Mental health conditions. Sometimes psychosis is a symptom of a condition like schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder or depression.”

-----

I know the term 'psychotic' is not always used literally, especially when it's said in a pejorative way. But I think it's important to be aware of the terminology we use and its implications.

People with mental illness suffer enough stigma without using that language to refer to abhorrent actions taken by people for reasons not associated with mental illness or physical illness, reasons such as extremist ideology.

Indeed, one of the scary parts about most white supremacists et al is that they are *not* classified or diagnosed as mentally ill. There can be crossover, indeed, but much less than is indicated by assuming or believing that people who hold extreme and uncivil views are mentally ill.

I think the distinction is crucial because you have to correctly define a problem before you can decisively solve it. Blaming uncivil and/or criminal behaviour on mental illness, when that is not the cause, is counterproductive for many important reasons and won't help us progress towards any solutions. It also unfairly dumps more crapola onto people who may already be stigmatized, ostracized, isolated and otherwise struggling due to a medical condition.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2022 07:44PM by Nightingale.

You think a perfectly sane person walks into a shopping mall in 2022 and shoots 13 innocent people because of the color of their skin?

I disagree.

That's F'ing Nuts!

And there's nothing stopping somebody who's completely insane and high as a kite from owning an AR-15.

That's how crazy America is right now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2022 12:03AM by schrodingerscat.

You call them psychotic. I was disagreeing with your terminology and with your contention that sane people don't commit mass shootings. This is not borne out by experience or stats. Studies show up to 69pc are not psychotic. Some may have other psych issues but not psychosis. Other causes may be unemployment, relationship issues and other life issues.

My point was that it is inaccurate to say mass shooters are psychotic. Some may be diagnosed with psychosis, others not.

You missed my point.

I think shooting innocent people in cold blood, out of pure hate, is crazy.

You think that’s perfectly normal behavior for somebody because they had a bad day. Got it.

‘Last June, state police investigated Gendron and ordered a psychiatric evaluation. After a day and a half in a hospital, he was released, authorities say. Afterward, he did not remain on law enforcement's radar.

The timing of the gun purchase, along with Donald's report of a clean background check, raises questions about why a police-ordered mental health evaluation would not have appeared on the report.’

Perfectly normal, give the man a weapon of war and let him go commit a mass murder.

This is an indictment of our crazy system that allows people like this hate spewing murderer anywhere near a weapon.

That’s my point.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2022 02:15AM by schrodingerscat.

I didn't miss your point.

Nightingale, there's no point in the dialogue. He has no interest in linguistic accuracy.

I’ve got no interest in people who think killing 10 people is perfectly sane behavior for somebody if they have a bad day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2022 02:26AM by schrodingerscat.

>I’ve got no interest in people who think killing 10 people is perfectly sane behavior for somebody if they have a bad day.

This was more than someone having a bad day. This guy made a trip to Buffalo 2 months ago to scout out the store. This after he researched which part of town had the highest percentage of Blacks. And he also wrote a long manifesto laying out his feelings beforehand.

This degree of premeditation is not the behavior of somebody who is psychotic and "having a bad day".

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’ve got no interest in people who think killing
> 10 people is perfectly sane behavior for somebody
> if they have a bad day.

I did not say it is "perfectly okay" to kill people, of course. So you're punching the air.

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> schrodingerscat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I’ve got no interest in people who think
> killing
> > 10 people is perfectly sane behavior for
> somebody
> > if they have a bad day.
>
> I did not say it is "perfectly okay" to kill
> people, of course. So you're punching the air.

I did not say you said it is ‘perfectly okay’.
I said you said it’s perfectly sane to kill innocent people if you’re having a bad day, because you claimed the shooter wasn’t psychotic and saying so stigmatizes psychotic people.

I disagree. Obviously it’s aberrant behavior.
Whether that meets the clinical definition of psychotic, That’ll be up to a psychologist to determine. I’m not a psychologist, trying to diagnose a patient. I’m merely pointing out how crazy it is in America to let anybody, even psychotic white supremacists, open carry weapons of war into a Shopping mall with less restrictions than operating a motor vehicle.

Where I live, in one of the most liberal cities in one of the most liberal states, gun violence is not uncommon, with street fights between heavily armed fascists and Antifa.

It’s completely insane to allow these weapons in the hands of extremists on either side of the divide, which is growing deeper, unfortunately.

Why do you insist on using Nightingale as your foil?

As a nurse, she knows far more about psychosis and insanity and has stated clearly what she thinks. Yet you continue to mischaracterize her position and then attack her for what (you wish) she said. It's dishonest, it's juvenile, and its frankly sexist.

Why don't you take on BoJ, who is more critical of you--and particularly of your misogyny--than Nightingale? Are you afraid to argue with a man?

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I said you said it’s perfectly sane to kill
> innocent people if you’re having a bad day,
> because you claimed the shooter wasn’t psychotic
> and saying so stigmatizes psychotic people.

My heavens, can't you differentiate between the symptom of psychosis and the diagnosis of insanity?

Must you continue to argue not with what Nightingale said but with what, in your words, "I said you said?" You have no right to put words in her mouth.

Grow up, you bully.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I said you said it’s perfectly sane to kill
> innocent people if you’re having a bad day,
> because you claimed the shooter wasn’t psychotic
> and saying so stigmatizes psychotic people.

It seems you are badly misreading me.

I did NOT say "it's perfectly sane to kill innocent people". I shouldn't even have to say I didn't say that because (1) I *didn't* say that and (2) I *wouldn't* say that. Of course and obviously I would not say that. Perhaps you could point to where I used those specific words or words to that effect.

I did *NOT* claim "the shooter wasn't psychotic. I didn't even refer to that specific shooter. And I have NO WAY of diagnosing him nor would I try to. I am not a diagnostician.

I stand by my statements that referring to any aberrant act or actor as "mental", "psychotic", "crazy" etc DOES stigmatize mental illness, because (1) it is not/may not be proven that the perpetrator of a violent act is mentally ill and (2) using such slang descriptors in a pejorative sense about mental illness does indeed cause negative impacts about, and on, people who are living with mental illness.

>You think a perfectly sane person walks into a shopping mall in 2022 and shoots 13 innocent people because of the color of their skin?

Don't underestimate the power of hate.

-------------------------------------------------------
> >You think a perfectly sane person walks into a
> shopping mall in 2022 and shoots 13 innocent
> people because of the color of their skin?

There are certainly members [plural] of the maternal [only!!] side of my family who could, and WOULD, either very possibly do this themselves, or they would be cheering the death toll "success" of the shooter.

Never underestimate the power of deep-seated prejudice.

That kind of prejudice can not only be--but often IS--lethal.

[Before he moved to southern California in the 1930s, my step-grandfather, the attorney, had been actively KKK in (at the very least) both Oklahoma and Kansas, and there were also some other, fairly nearby in that general area, states which were mentioned as well.]

Don't ever underestimate the potential power of prejudice.

It can, and DOES, kill.

I’ve got them in my family too.
My BIL said he’d be fine with 75% of the herd getting culled and he’s quite clear about which 25% he’d want spared, the ones in his CULT.

So is he psychotic?

Nightingale Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So is he psychotic?

Again, you completely missed my point, completely.
When I say any psychotic mass murderer is free to carry a weapon of war around in America, I'm not a psychologist diagnosing people, I'm just a lay person stating the fact, that it's crazy to allow people who've been ordered by the courts to undergo psychiatric evaluations to then go purchase a weapon of war and as much ammo as they can carry.

I think our individual 'freedoms' are killing us in America. The freedom to purchase and carry as many assault rifles and ammo as you can carry, no questions asked, unrestricted, is insane.

The individual 'freedom' to not get vaccinated or wear a mask in the middle of a pandemic, is why we have a million dead from Covid. That's crazy. And it's killing us, literally.

Everyone gets your point, Kori. It's obvious to anyone with an enlarged brain stem.

What NG is trying to do is move beyond the top line hysteria and seek an understanding of the problem and its causes. Your constant reiteration of the obvious gets in the way of a substantive discussion.

>I think our individual 'freedoms' are killing us in America.

Which of your freedoms are you willing to give up?

Wrong question. Other freedoms have been sacrificed to provide the so-called freedoms that are killing us.

Example, the freedom to live in a safe society with minimal risk of covid infection because of herd immunity was denied to the entire country, thanks to anti-vaxxers. The rest of the country didn't even get to vote on the issue. Herd immunity was denied to all by a minority.

Traffic lights are an infringement on my freedom to get where I am going as quickly as possible. I and most everyone else is OK with that because we recognize that if there is no traffic control, it will be difficult for anyone to get anywhere. Of course if everyone else obeys traffic controls and only I get to ignore them, I can get from point A to point B faster, unless the police intervene. The police can be a real buzz-kill for the self-centered.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> America, Land of the free (where we lock up more
> of our population than any other country on the
> planet) and home of the Brave (where we have more
> guns than humans) and any psychotic white
> supremacist is ‘free’ to walk around with a
> fully loaded AR-15 and shoot innocent people.

Did the Buffalo shooter use an AR-15? I've seen the gun referred to as a "high powered" rifle...which could be an AR-15...but usually that term is used for a hunting rifle. And usually the mainstream media loves to jump all over the fact and publicize it when an AR-15 is used. That gives the DEMS the opportunity to start crying about banning AR-15's. But that hasn't been the case in this shooting. Perhaps because an AR-15 wasn't the gun of choice this time?

Yes. Legally purchased and illegally modified.

It's all over the news. No need for your conspiracy minded assumptions.

Even the shooter says it was a AR-15. And really Jaxon, would those people be any LESS DEAD if it was a different gun?

"In the suspect's 180-page screed posted online, the suspect described the gun as a Bushmaster XM-15, an AR-15-style rifle."

Google is your friend.
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/16/1099186443/buffalo-suspect-gun-rifle

It has been interesting to observe the political reactions to the Buffalo shootings/murders.

Dems full-throatedly condemned the shootings. POTUS and First Lady cleared their calendar and flew to Buffalo today. In the other political party, the three usual suspects condemned white supremacy. Kitzinger also went after those that either support white supremacy, or remain silent. He did not mince words.

Otherwise, the Red response has been a combination of awkward silence, indications they might need to retune the dog whistle, or conspiracy theories. For example, Wendy Rogers, AZ state senate, opined that it was an FBI false flag operation. I looked up her bio, thinking she might be Mormon. I could not find any evidence about that one way of the other, but she was censured by the Arizona Republican caucus just last month by a vote of 24-3. When you are too nuts for even the Arizona Republicans, you are too nuts.

Ted Cruz made no comment about the shootings on Saturday, but he did tweet about attending an Eagles concert, and how Desperado is the greatest song ever. Middle aged white guys obsessing about Desperado is such a cliche that Seinfeld did an episode about it.

I somehow suspect that if the shooter had been Muslim, Black, or any type of immigrant, the silent politicians would have had plenty to say.

Tucker on Fox did not mention White Replacement Theory on his show last night. Interesting, since it was practically a staple topic for him prior to the shooting. I suspect that Fox Legal Department told him to stuff a sock in his mouth, since they are expecting to get sued by families of victims.

You will recall that when Fox got served with papers from Dominion voting machine company over unsubstantiated claims that their machines fraudulently misreported votes, the papers were served on a thursday afternoon, Friday morning Fox's most popular host on Fox Business, Lou Dobbs, was summarily pulled off the air, and they shut up about corrupted voting machines from then on.

I have a feeling Fox will become quite circumspect about ranting about white replacement, at least for a while.

He touted White Replacement Theory 400 times prior to Buffalo on his show according to NYT, who checked.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/04/30/us/tucker-carlson-tonight.html

I’ve seen Fox blame Democrats, ironically, and the “Liberal Media” (CNN, MSNBC, NBC, and everybody to the Left of Fox)
The ultimate form of gaslighting, pure bullshit.
Trump is the master.
He’s calling the shots at Faux News.
And he’s back on Twitter,
Touting ‘Truth Social’



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2022 03:34PM by schrodingerscat.