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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 05:11PM

Another 18-yr-old shooter.

Kids never making it home.

Parents bereft forever.

Teachers frightened.

No red flags?

Why?

Why?

Why?

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 05:34PM

Thirteen elementary school children dead and one teacher confirmed so far. Will anything change? I suspect not.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 05:44PM

15 dead. :(

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 05:49PM

Fifteen families that will never be the same.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 05:57PM

Plus a lot of kids who witnessed the event and their families. The ripples from these crimes spread far and wide geographically and temporally.

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Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 06:08PM

Welcome to America,

Home of the Free
(where we lock up more citizens than the rest of the world combined) and

Land of the Brave
(where any psychopath bent on destruction is free to buy and open carry a weapon of war and as much ammo as they can carry)

Will anything ever change?
Nope.

Where’s the line when things might change?
100 dead kids? 1,000? 10,000? 100k? 1 million?

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 06:15PM

A news anchor just called this tragedy "uniquely American".

It's hard for outsiders to comprehend.

One of the first of the first responders to arrive was a border patrol officer who was apparently shot in the head but is expected to survive (likely due to his protective gear). They are saying he "engaged with the gunman" but obviously don't know yet to what effect as other officers were also present and doing likewise.

The community is being described as "predominantly Latino".

Some of the heartrending details I'm hearing are not necessarily 100% verified at this point so I won't repeat them but obviously it's a horrific situation. Some parents apparently are still not aware of the status of their child.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 06:23PM

So horrible! It’s becoming the norm to have flags flying at half staff now.

I would’ve thought that with everything we’ve been through for the past two years, that everyone would be kinder to each other.

It seems to have brought the psychos out from under their rocks.

Those poor families. Lives changed forever.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 06:24PM

I'm furious and heartbroken this has happened (predictably!) again.

Thank gawd they fought to keep books and masks out of schools. Thank heavens we can prevent abortions so there are always new little kids for gun targets. Thoughts and prayers are not Band-Aids for our gun problem. We do not have an excessive mental illness problem. We have a gun and hate problem. We have a political side bought by the NRA lobbyists problem.

I'm mad and upset. I'd better stop before I say what I really think.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 06:35PM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thoughts and prayers are not Band-Aids

One news guy said we keep saying thoughts and prayers but it's not working, it's not enough.

> We do not have an excessive
> mental illness problem. We have a gun and hate
> problem.

One expert just said "I guarantee we will hear of a problem with mental illness".

The problem with that is it may be an easy out - if we accept that the issue is mental illness then nothing else needs to change, in the views of some. Too, though, that go-to explanation does illustrate the lack of comprehension most people feel when seeing the violence perpetrated against innocents, in this case, young children. It's beyond our experience, in most cases, to contemplate that anybody can commit such violence without having emotional/mental problems. I think the answer lies in multiple factors.

But true enough, if access to weapons wasn't so easy it seems that at least this type of scenario could likely be less frequent.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 07:18PM

IMO ordinary citizens do not need to have access to assault rifles.

I will also share something that I've thought about a lot. Every teacher has probably come across several students where we've all thought -- not this one. This child should never, ever have access to a weapon. I've talked to the former teachers of people who were charged with murder, and I've asked, "Did you see it coming?" And the answer, *always,* has been yes. They saw it coming.

We need a better way to identify troubled people, to make sure that they get needed interventions, and to screen for those who should not ever be able to buy a gun.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 07:27PM

That's another area in which the Roberts Court has messed things up. For two centuries the supreme court's jurisprudence stuck with the letter of the Second Amendment, which states that the citizens have the right to possess guns in their "militias," meaning national guards. That was never controversial.

But the Roberts Court ignored that constitutional nuance and ascribed the right to the citizens directly. That was a revolutionary ruling and ignored both the wording of the Second Amendment and the subsequent body of precedent. The right-wing justices on the court are in no way originalists or conservatives: they are zealots and judicial activists.

In Tribe's words, "this is not a real court."

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Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 04:24PM

"That's another area in which the Roberts Court has messed things up. For two centuries the supreme court's jurisprudence stuck with the letter of the Second Amendment, which states that the citizens have the right to possess guns in their "militias," meaning national guards. That was never controversial."

COMMENT: Here is the language:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Although this language suggests an *interpretation* of the right to bear arms that is tied to the *explanation* about Militias, the language of the right itself is stated in unequivocal terms. In other words, the right, as stated, is not qualified in any way. It is perfectly clear what right the people have that shall not be infringed.

It is a fundamental tenet of Constitutional (and statutory legal interpretation) that the express language of a Constitutional provision or statute shall be followed --unless such language is ambiguous, which then requires various principles of interpretation beyond the language itself. Since in this case the right is unambiguously unequivocal, the strict interpretation is Constitutionally justified.

This means that it is the States' responsibility to regulate gun control, subject to the Supreme Court's determination of Constitutionality. Given the strong unambiguous Second Amendment language, any limitation on the right to bear arms is a tough argument--however socially necessary and justified.

Given the unequivocal right as stated in the Second Amendment, a Constitutional Amendment is arguably the best, and possibly the only, legal strategy available to limit such a right.

In short, as with the abortion debate, you are wrong. You are blaming the SC for following the letter of the Constitution, when that is precisely what their mandate requires. The Constitution itself provides for the appropriate remedy, which is an amendment. If that is NOT doable for political reasons, that is not the SC's fault. The alternative, giving the SC legislative authority beyond the Constitutional language, is putting a tremendous and dangerous amount of power in the SC, a power that the Constitution does not warrant.
_____________________________________________

"But the Roberts Court ignored that constitutional nuance and ascribed the right to the citizens directly. That was a revolutionary ruling and ignored both the wording of the Second Amendment and the subsequent body of precedent. The right-wing justices on the court are in no way originalists or conservatives: they are zealots and judicial activists."

COMMENT: Absolutely WRONG! (For reasons explained.)
____________________________________________

In Tribe's words, "this is not a real court."

COMMENT: I am not sure what comment you are referring to by Lawrence Tribe, but presumably he thinks the SC should by the final arbiter of social problems and political stalemates. Unfortunately, that is not what the Constitution says.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 05:57PM

Here we go again.

Henry tell us he is an attorney, and his written sophistry suggests he is. He can argue any point with passion--passion, I say--whether it is correct or not.

Is he a constitutional lawyer? Not a chance. He boasts of having had one class on constitutional law--no doubt required for all first-year students at his law school and nothing more than an introduction to the topic. Serious students of constitutional law take many courses on the topic, not just a single semester 50 years ago.

Note, for instance, Henry's claim that the Alito draft would forbid Congress from enacting federal laws governing abortion nationwide. I objected to that on the grounds that the essential basis for the decision, the ratio decidendi, is the fact that the right to privacy is not in the constitution while the states rights stuff that Henry finds so compelling was obiter dicta--the justices' personal opinions and hence nonbinding as precedent.

When I said that we'll have the answer within a couple of years because Congress will try to enact national regulations under the new regime and we'll see SCOTUS's response, Henry fulminated a bit but then retreated to his position that essentially "whatever the court says, I'm still right." [It's easy to see in this link because he puts it in ALL CAPS!]

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,2427943,2428350#msg-2428350

I repeated, and repeat again, that Henry's views are irrelevant. We will see what the supreme court says in the near future and that will show whether he or I understand con law better.

Now Henry comes up with another first-year argument: that the court must follow the written text of the constitution unless it is ambiguous and needs interpretation. To wit,

> It is a fundamental tenet of Constitutional (and
> statutory legal interpretation) that the express
> language of a Constitutional provision or statute
> shall be followed --unless such language is
> ambiguous, which then requires various principles
> of interpretation beyond the language itself.

This is juvenile. At least half of modern constitutional law is based in analysis that has nothing to do with the written constitution. The best example is the "interstate commerce clause," which says the federal government may not regulate any commercial activity that occurs within a single state. That provision of the constitution is virtually meaningless because the supremes have found so many exceptions that the feds can now regulate working conditions in a local store (OSHA), pollution standards in your local stream (EPA), and virtually anything else. The commerce clause is--and this is a basic tenet of first-year con law--a dead letter. Henry must have been home with a cold on that day of class.

The rights to marry outside your race, to have oral sex, to have homosexual sex, to use contraception, etc., are all based on a right to privacy that has no basis in the constitution. There was none of Henry's beloved "ambiguity" in the constitution on any of those issues. The court created the out of the unwritten "penumbra" of the constitution.

Likewise, the First Amendment says nothing about defamation, slander, libel, prohibiting the shouting of "fire" in a movie theater, or "fighting words" that lead to violence. Nor does the Second Amendment say that the federal and state governments may forbid such arms as grenades, bazookas, Stinger missiles, Harpoon missiles, etc.--and those are prohibited everywhere and will remain banned if the Alito draft is adopted. Clearly the simple words of the constitution are not the final word.

You know what else is missing in Henry's proclamations? Any awareness of precedents. A bit of research would have revealed, for example, the extent of the right to privacy, the near meaningless of the interstate commerce clause, the origin of insider trading laws, and the intricacies of first amendment defamation laws, none of which are alluded to in the constitution and yet all of which are very, very real.

That research would also have given him at least a passing familiarity with District of Columbia v. Heller, the 2008 case in which the Roberts Court overturned two centuries' precedent that had been based on the explicit "militia" language in the constitution that Henry now says the court should rightly ignore. But that's a contradiction, isn't it? Henry reckons that Alito's off-topic comments about states rights must be taken seriously and yet he consigns whole clauses and phrases in the constitution to oblivion. He thus approves judicial activism, the notion that justices may overlook the precise words of the constitution.

Finally, and most revealingly for a man who purports to know constitutional law, Henry isn't even familiar with the great constitutional scholars. He knows nothing of the 1930s cases and analysis, and he isn't even familiar with the work of Lawrence Tribe.

> COMMENT: . . .Lawrence Tribe. . . presumably. . .
> thinks the SC should by the final arbiter of
> social problems and political stalemates.
> Unfortunately, that is not what the Constitution
> says.

If Henry knew the man, he'd know the topic and the conclusion. But lacking that understanding, he "presumes" Tribe thinks the supreme court should be activist. That's not, however, the case. Tribe is concerned with the lack of respect for stare decisis, for if the supremes can without hesitation overturn centuries of constitutional precedent they become a body of supra-election sage kings.

He's worried about tyranny, Henry, the tyranny that arises when justices ignore the use of precedent that the founders of the constitution approved and employed when they were appointed to the early courts.

You should know that.

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Posted by: Kathleen ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 09:01PM

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I've talked to the former
> teachers of people who were charged with murder,
> and I've asked, "Did you see it coming?" And the
> answer, *always,* has been yes. They saw it
> coming.
>
> We need a better way to identify troubled people,
> to make sure that they get needed interventions,
> and to screen for those who should not ever be
> able to buy a gun.


You’re right Summer. Here was my experience:

To make a long story short, I called DOJ and ATF both with regard to someone who had guns but never should have. I called each of those agencies on three separate occasions. Someone at DOJ finally told me they were “only a data-storage agency.” ATF couldn’t act on it bc he had yet to commit a crime. Officers who issued weapons permits said they couldn’t seize his guns unless he demonstrated that he was a threat at the time they were interacting with him. I understand that, but . . .

His own father (the object of his intense hatred) snapped at me, “Well, he has the right to bear arms.”


This person ultimately killed himself after multiple attempts.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 01:36PM

The right to bear arms is not a right envied by the rest of the world - except by the bad guys...

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Posted by: onthedownlow ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 12:23PM

My heart is broken for the victims, the families, the community there, it's tragic.

I agree Summer. The issue is about mental health in the U.S.A. Someone close to me had a mental break down and hospitalized for a few weeks. I read a lot on mental health and found that we do not fund hardly anything into mental health. We spend a lot on national defense and other things, but mental health is of no concern. Why?


People kill people with more than just guns. They use knives, bombs, bats, vehicles etc... These instruments do not have arms and legs walking around doing it themselves. People are killing people. Beyond that, people are harming each other in a variety of ways. The bottom line should be to invest more as a society into mental healthcare. The mind is fragile.

Especially, for those of us who made our discovery of the Morg. I remember how bad that hurt my feelings. I experienced grief I didn't know I could experience. It flipped my world upside down. I am so grateful I have RFM and people like Richard Packham and many others who made themselves available for me to reconcile my emotions in those fragile moments.

Mental Healthcare folks. Think about it.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 12:26PM

Other countries have mental health issues without all these deaths.

It's the guns that make the difference in being able to kill so many so quickly.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 12:39PM

People in other countries also have knives, bats, vehicles, etc. occasionally a vehicle is used in a mass murder. Everything else, virtually never. It’s actually fairly difficult to kill someone with a knife if they can get to medical care to stop the bleeding.

The US is unique in its number of mass shootings, and those shootings happen with guns.

This from a blog this morning:

That such a thing has happened is not even a tiny bit surprising. This incident is getting front-page attention because of the ghastly human toll, but it is the 248th mass shooting in the U.S. this year, the 49th this month, and the 13th in the past week. And, incidentally, 27 of those have taken place at schools. The 21 students and faculty who perished are victims 269 through 290 for the year 2022. Yesterday was the 144th day of the year, which means that the U.S. is on pace for 629 mass shootings this year with 735 deaths.

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Posted by: onthedownlow ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 01:09PM

Dagny and Brother of Jerry, both excellent points you made. However, what is your answer to the problem? Gathering up all the guns? Banning gun sales? Will that work or will it go the same way as prohibition did in the 1920's or the drug wars?

The Nazi's creatively killed thousands, if not millions, without guns. They used poisons, ovens, ropes & trees, fire, starvation etc...

Joseph Stalin killed far more people than Hitler was able to achieve, 20 million plus.

Mao Zedong killed around 45 million people. The great wall of China was not built as a tourist attraction, it is there to protect the Chinese from invasion from Genghis Kahn.

2996 people died on 9/11 by aircraft and box cutter knives and few other non-gun items.

Let's look at Ted Bundy, William Gacy, BTK, Richard Kuklinski, and Christopher Duntsch, all who may have used a gun to subdue but then killed without the gun. Some didn't use a gun at all, they were more creative than that. Gacy would play a trick to get hand cuffs on his victims to control and kill them. Bundy used a phony police badge then crushed your head in with a tree trunk or a rock. Kuklinski and Duntsch killed with poisons. BTK took pleasure in strangling his victims and watching them die slowly as did Bundy.

But hold on here, I do see one universal theme from these examples and so many more...Mental Health.

And especially from this forum, where religion we can see has done so much damage to the human thought processes...

Mental Health, think about it.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 01:32PM

IMO, the main mental health issue we should worry about is the cowardice and corruption mindset of our lawmakers.

All these folks running around with Christmas pictures of their kids holding semiautomatic weapons is not about mental health...or is it?

There are plenty of things we could try (possibilities from H.R. 127).
-A better process for the licensing and registration of firearms.
-Prohibit the possession of certain ammunition and large capacity ammunition feeding devices.
-A registration system for firearms.
-A publicly available database of all registered firearms.
-Age requirements- individual is 21 years of age or older.
-Criminal check and psychological evaluation, completes a certified training course, and has an insurance policy.
-Stricter outlines for the circumstances under which DOJ must deny a license (e.g., the individual was hospitalized with a mental illness) and how to enforce it. (How about vigilantes who get to sue anyone who helps provide guns against the laws? Hey, if it is good for abortion finks, see how gun types like it. Partially kidding.).
-Focus on certain types of guns. I don't think anyone is trying to take away ALL guns, which is what certain people are trying to say as a fear tactic, IMO.

I'm no expert on guns or mental health. I suspect a mental health diagnosis would not be given to a person until after a crime is committed in many cases. That's too little too late.
I'm not qualified or knowledge enough to get an opinion, but I know I'm angry that the people who do know solutions won't act.

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Posted by: onthedownlow ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 01:56PM

Dagny, I empathize with your frustration. These shootings are horrible and just so sad. But all of these items you have posted are both micro level fixes and a lot of them are already in place and they do not work.

Think about it. The guns are already in circulation. We can't collect them all back logistically. It wont work. The tighter the controls the greater the demand. Just ask the drug lords. They fear legalization of drugs and losing their profits. I live in CO and legalizing pot was a great idea and I hate pot. I don't use it. But I am pro-legalization of it. We are growing much greater now as a result of it in science. We are learning from it. It's good for society when used responsibly.

Let me tell you this one thing. I have been helping one of my daughters to get set up with a psychologist for herself. I also did the same for my wife at one time. I went through hell trying to find a therapist and affordable for both. And I am the guy at work who sets up the EAP programs for all staff!! That is nuts!!

It should not be that hard to get mental help. People are coming apart at the seams b/c they are stressed, treated horrible and work and school, mind controlled by evil ppl and false religious beliefs etc...

Mental healthcare should be funded as a priority, it should be easy to access, it should be affordable, and part of our educational system (meaning classes and research funding in generous amounts). Moreover it should be widely abundant and our work systems should be very supportive of the use of it. Violence is a means to an end when frustration overload and mental disease persists like grains of sand on the beach.

Guns don't walk around killing ppl. Weapons in general don't walk around like terminators. People need mental health. Too many break downs, crazies, and tyrants in the world. Look at V. Putin the SOB. He is killing more than just soldiers. He is fire bombing babies and mothers. Insane!

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 03:05PM

I’m not interested in your gun apologia/fetish. Other countries don’t do this. We are clearly doing something that is not working.

The status quo is not acceptable. Period.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 03:14PM

Misplaced



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2022 03:15PM by Brother Of Jerry.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 04:56PM

We are NOT an outlier in the number of mental illness cases.
We ARE an outlier in the number and ease of access to guns.

Do the math.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 05:09PM

>>It should not be that hard to get mental help

Hell, we can barely get any reasonable health care as it is. Poor people can't afford even the minimum health care like insulin.

What on earth makes you think there could be luxury mental health access all over given our twisted health care system? Secondly, many of the people who need mental health therapy are not the types go go seek it, and probably would not go willingly.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 06:20PM

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Poor people can't afford even the
> minimum health care like insulin.

It seems difficult for many of those who have access to visualize what it's like for those who do not. Here in Canada we don't have the immediate financial strain due to our health care system being available to all but in many communities there are fewer resources than are required to meet various needs. For example, we have an acute shortage of family physicians across the country. In our system, the GP is the first step to accessing all other care that's needed. That administrative fact alone decreases access to treatment and prolongs wait times.

The pandemic highlighted all the shortages so now it's in the forefront more but it's not speeding up relief. There are still overly long wait times for investigations and treatment even for those who are in the serious to urgent categories. My sister, for instance, has been waiting six months just for a simple investigation to determine a diagnosis for symptoms that could presage something quite undesirable. Delay in many cases will cause more morbidity and mortality.

For people who have family MDs they still wait but at least know they can be seen faster than others. Those who can pay out of pocket can access resources immediately, such as if you want/need MRI/CT scans and even simple outpatient surgical procedures (although the government tries to restrict this second tier of care).

We've had a horror in Canada of creating a system where there's one tier for the haves and another for the have-nots but it's happening despite efforts to avoid it.

But yeah, access and $$$ can be barriers to care. Many don't realize it unless it happens to them.


> many of the
> people who need mental health therapy are not the
> types go go seek it, and probably would not go
> willingly.

Yes. Too, there are limits on what can be done. I long for the day when there are more effective medications and treatments to help people suffering with mental health issues.

One of the most difficult aspects of trying to help can be getting people to accept that they need help and that pharmaceuticals may be necessary. Medication compliance can be low or sporadic. And with some illnesses meds aren't that effective and/or cause very undesirable side effects that decrease compliance even more.

No easy answers.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 08:29PM

Whomever taught that kid to hate needs to be found out and held responsible as an accessory after the fact

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Posted by: Shinehah ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 08:43PM

Currently the press is reporting 18 students and three adults killed. The focus appropriately is on the deaths but so far there hasn't been much reporting on wounded. Those injured should be remembered as well. Serious gunshot wounds can require months or years of recovery and rehab. Sometimes complete recovery never occurs.
A senseless tragedy for everyone involved.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: May 24, 2022 09:15PM

I've heard them say several children are hospitalized and are "fighting for their lives".

What utter hell in so many ways, for so many people, far into the future.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2022 09:15PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: moehoward ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 01:05PM

Now legislators will advocate to arm the teachers. Teachers are already leaving the field in droves.

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Posted by: kentish ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 01:15PM

For comparison. In 2020 79% of homicides in the US involved guns. 37% in Canada, 13% in Australia, and 4% in the UK. From 1968 t0 2017 1.5 million people have been killed by guns in the United States, more than in all wars since and including WW2. 45,000 in 2020 alone.

Sobering facts to the rational but mere figures to those intoxicated on guns.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 01:38PM


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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 02:37PM

Looks like the governor has solved the mystery of the root cause/s for this tragedy.

Too many doors in the school.


Not too many guns.

Too much ammunition.

Types of assault weapons freely available.


Just decrease the number of doors in a school, to one door, I think he even suggested.

So. In case of fire, the entire school population has to scramble out through one door, maybe far away from where they are at the time the emergency erupts.

Plus. The easy go-to that it must be a mental health issue. That has not been proven as far as I know.

We can think you must have a mental health problem to even contemplate taking such action but until it's known, it's an easy go-to smear against people in general who are living with mental illness.

Maybe the guy was just mad at somebody. Or at the world. We should wait and see what actual likely cause can be determined.

The reason that people in extremis like this, for any reason, target little kids at school is a mystery I'd like an answer for.


PS: I just heard that one of the deputies who responded to the crisis lost his daughter there.

Completely horrific scene.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2022 02:39PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Kentish ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 03:10PM

The most common solution I have read from gun advocates is that schools should have armed guards on duty. Think about that logic for a moment.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: May 25, 2022 03:16PM

One door, and surround the school with fencing. Essentially put kids in prison, trading off their right to a normal life for the right to own weapons designed for the specific purpose of killing efficiently.

So the shooters will have to settle for grocery stores, churches and outdoor concerts. That makes me feel better.

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